First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by amberwolf » May 02 2019 4:17pm

furcifer wrote:
May 02 2019 5:19am
amberwolf wrote:
May 02 2019 5:03am
furcifer wrote:
May 02 2019 1:54am
1000W turns a bicycle into a motorcycle or moped. By law. Period.
No.

Not in the USA. (don't know about other countries)


Read the laws for the various states.
3/4 of the US has such laws. There are several federal definitions, laws, acts etc. that define them, That's a majority. I know it doesn't count for much in your so called democracy, but it statistically significant.

Again, just because a few states in the US are slow to adopt laws doesn't change the fact that's it true. And if you read what I wrote I said "most".
No, you did not say "most". You said what is in the quote I answered above, which is a definite statement with no exceptions, and is flatly not true.

You yourself state in your reply (quoted below that statement and my answer) that not all of the US has such laws. This shows that you do understand and know that your statement is not true.

If you were not posting untrue statements there would be no need to refute you, and people would not be using up time and space on the page doing so in order to prevent untruths from spreading. THere's already plenty of misinformation out there; I (and others) continue to do what we can to be sure this site isn't hosting more of it. This site is intended to be a place people can go to and get reliable information about EVs and electric bicycles, etc. I can't correct all of the misinformation out there, as I don't know everything, but I will do so for what I know to be untrue.


Just so you don't understand, it's not about proving you wrong, it's about changing your method of posting (and hopefully thinking), so you don't post misinformation.

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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by E-HP » May 02 2019 4:45pm

Thomsontouring wrote:
May 02 2019 3:02pm
I commuted by motorcycle for years. I commute by ebike now but it's under a mile. You have to ride to road conditions. But that doesn't categorically rule out a good balanced hardtail/mid-drive combination.
Ya, after riding motorcycles, you don't really move to an ebike for speed, so it's a different perspective, but you do bring along the habits that have kept you alive. Unless you have a Moto-e GP bike, there's no ebike made that is actually "fast", but because they are less stable, they can give the sensation of speed. The sensation of speed occurs when the vehicle is approaching that point where if anything goes wrong, you're likely toast.

While on a motorcycle, you may start to feel that sensation at maybe 130 mph, when your vision begins to narrow and peripheral vision disappears, but on an ebike you can feel that thrill at a much lower speed. If you want to be safe, ride slower than that speed. If you want the sensation of speed, go faster than it. If you need to regularly ride at a certain speed, make the bike stable for that speed, but that won't make it safe. Safety relies on your brain, skills, and respect for limitations.

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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by furcifer » May 02 2019 5:01pm

amberwolf wrote:
May 02 2019 4:17pm
No, you did not say "most". You said what is in the quote I answered above, which is a definite statement with no exceptions, and is flatly not true.

I did say most. Do you think anyone believes the entire world has the exact same rules? Of course not.

I was generalizing and going based on a majority. That's actually how things work. There are no absolutes. It's only internet trolls that do this.

Learn to read the subtext. Stop being pedantic. It's basic.

Again, there's enough general consensus on the subject matter, in the countries that have put in the effort to make such a determination, 1000W reclassifies a bicycle into a moped by the rule of law.

I don't see any evidence to refute this. It's really a minor point, but it does go to establishing the need for suspension despite your naive objections.

Plus it's engineering 101 - Dampening. It has been well established for over 100 years that the positive effects of using dampening (suspension) outweigh the negatives.

So I still don't see anything of value being offered as a counter argument. It's still bravado. And a bit of techno-phobia. Your arguments date you. This is also quite common, older people tend to fear change and progress and profess how good things were before and how they survived. Cars don't need fuel injection, seatbelts and disc brakes, but everyone's lives are better and safer because the government stepped in and mandated it. Namely because people such as yourself just aren't competent to know any better. I've done a very good job of explaining why it's necessary but you don't seem to understand.

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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by Chalo » May 02 2019 5:07pm

furcifer wrote:
May 02 2019 2:54pm
Chalo wrote:
May 02 2019 1:45pm
There are also 18 other US states that allow a 1000W e-bike and classify it as a bicycle, not a motorcycle or moped. See for yourself:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electri ... ted_States
You're citing federal regulations on ebikes to say there's no regulations on ebikes. :confused:
There is a state-by-state table in the link I provided.

The only Federal standard for e-bikes is a consumer product definition that has no effect on local operating privileges. If you are mistaking that product standard for a nationwide rule covering e-bikes, then that's one of the reasons you're getting this stuff so very wrong.

150+ years of established practice, including riding faster than we're discussing, on worse roads than we're discussing, says you're in a tiny minority in your assessment of the suitability of rigid bikes for this job.

Suspension bikes were common well over 100 years ago. They went away because they aren't optimal for the job a bicycle-- even a very fast one-- has to do.
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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by furcifer » May 02 2019 5:21pm

E-HP wrote:
May 02 2019 4:45pm
Thomsontouring wrote:
May 02 2019 3:02pm
I commuted by motorcycle for years. I commute by ebike now but it's under a mile. You have to ride to road conditions. But that doesn't categorically rule out a good balanced hardtail/mid-drive combination.
Ya, after riding motorcycles, you don't really move to an ebike for speed, so it's a different perspective, but you do bring along the habits that have kept you alive. Unless you have a Moto-e GP bike, there's no ebike made that is actually "fast", but because they are less stable, they can give the sensation of speed. The sensation of speed occurs when the vehicle is approaching that point where if anything goes wrong, you're likely toast.

While on a motorcycle, you may start to feel that sensation at maybe 130 mph, when your vision begins to narrow and peripheral vision disappears, but on an ebike you can feel that thrill at a much lower speed. If you want to be safe, ride slower than that speed. If you want the sensation of speed, go faster than it. If you need to regularly ride at a certain speed, make the bike stable for that speed, but that won't make it safe. Safety relies on your brain, skills, and respect for limitations.
^exactly this

I'm riding a hardtail and there are times when I'm doing 30mph and I can't take my hand off the handlebars because the road is too bumpy, but I need to indicate to traffic my intention to turn or slow down. I've never experienced that on a motorcycle, one because of turn signals and two because the ride is much more stable. With a full suspension bike it would be safer to let go and properly indicate my turn. Or trying to change lanes. You're slower than traffic, no matter what, and that makes changing lanes difficult. With a rigid bike you have to pay more attention to the road ahead, and not the traffic coming up behind you. That's not safe at all.

Regardless of the individual and their skill level, the more control you can have over the bike the safer you are at any speed. It's not really even debatable.

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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by PScott » May 02 2019 5:28pm

Steve.Morris, I read your post and skipped over all the other nonsense... over weight, bought a BBSHD from em3ev...been there done that.....you have 1/2 the commute i have...just ride a normal bike ...thats it...an ebike with all its challenges and costs will not get you fit. It actually will make you lazy...yes it will get you out there but twisting the throttle is a crutch for fitness.

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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by furcifer » May 02 2019 5:29pm

Chalo wrote:
May 02 2019 5:07pm
Suspension bikes were common well over 100 years ago. They went away because they aren't optimal for the job a bicycle-- even a very fast one-- has to do.
Suspension bikes "went away"? :confused:

Funny, I was under the impression they were still around. I was under the impression some of the most expensive bikes made today, capable of withstanding the harshest riding conditions, were full suspension bikes. I was under the impression that full suspension bikes have opened up a whole new category of fast paced aggressive riding.

My bad. :roll:

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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by markz » May 02 2019 5:30pm

Less laws are better!


furcifer wrote:
May 02 2019 5:12am
.

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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by markz » May 02 2019 5:40pm

Its because of greed by the corporations, changing components like thru-axles, tapered headsets so there is then no interchangeability. For the tapered headset, you'd then have to buy a reducer which costs another $80, but withThru-axle wheels, your f'd! Then theres the tubeless b.s. going on, which you can use tubes if ya want. Perhaps I am beating a dead horse with the tapers and thru's. Find a nice frame and it has thru's and/or tapers.

Engineered designs to fail over time, to garner even more money.

Options are good to have....
*in some circumstances
The dropper seat post is another added cost. It would have been nice to have when I was doing downhill before downhill was even a thing. I was biking ski hills in the summer before that was a thing. Good times.

Hydraulic brakes another option that's nice to have, but impractical for some, long distance riders, budget riders, back country riders, couriers, commuters. Perhaps down hillers and others who require greater braking power and/or brake lever feel would benefit. Another added "up-sell" for many a bike on the show room floor.

I even saw a YT last night on some of the Lycra bikes, a seat post as a part of the frame. Try selling that bike. Even saw a carbon fiber rotor, with flakes of metal embedded..... craziness.

furcifer wrote:
May 02 2019 5:29pm
I was under the impression that full suspension bikes have opened up a whole new category of fast paced aggressive riding.

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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by amberwolf » May 02 2019 5:44pm

furcifer wrote:
May 02 2019 5:01pm
amberwolf wrote:
May 02 2019 4:17pm
No, you did not say "most". You said what is in the quote I answered above, which is a definite statement with no exceptions, and is flatly not true.
I did say most.
No, you did not. You said:
furcifer wrote:
May 02 2019 1:54am
1000W turns a bicycle into a motorcycle or moped. By law. Period.
Which is a flatly untrue statement.

My point has nothing to do with bravado, fear, etc.

It is ONLY that you keep making broad, flatly untrue statements.

Stop doing that, and there isn't anything to correct.



If you had said "1000w turns a bicycle into a motorcycle or moped, by law, in most places." then that would not be an untrue statement, and it wouldn't have to be corrected to prevent the spread of misinformation. But it isn't what you said, and there is no "subtext" to a statement phrased the way you did, to allow for other meanings.

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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by donn » May 02 2019 5:50pm

furcifer wrote:
May 02 2019 5:01pm
It's really a minor point, but it does go to establishing the need for suspension
State legislators who to a man have never ridden an electric bicycle, have classified 1000W electric bicycles as mopeds - and this is how we know that 1000W electric bicycles categorically need full suspension?

It's just a guess, but I bet if the OP does go ahead with that BBSHD, or for that matter a similar power rated setup, among the other moped "requirements" he's going to neglect, along with the full suspension, would be brake lights, turn signals and rear view mirrors. These are explicit legal requirements for a moped, in contrast to full suspension for which there is no such requirement. Anyone ready to start a crusade for brake lights and turn signals, complete with heaping abuse on any forum members who doesn't think that's really needed?

Let's be clear - state law on electric bicycles is not even adequate to its purposes, let alone any guide to how to choose or operate an electric bicycle.

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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by furcifer » May 02 2019 6:32pm

markz wrote:
May 02 2019 5:40pm
Its because of greed by the corporations, changing components like thru-axles, tapered headsets so there is then no interchangeability. For the tapered headset, you'd then have to buy a reducer which costs another $80, but withThru-axle wheels, your f'd! Then theres the tubeless b.s. going on, which you can use tubes if ya want. Perhaps I am beating a dead horse with the tapers and thru's. Find a nice frame and it has thru's and/or tapers.

Engineered designs to fail over time, to garner even more money.

Options are good to have....
*in some circumstances
The dropper seat post is another added cost. It would have been nice to have when I was doing downhill before downhill was even a thing. I was biking ski hills in the summer before that was a thing. Good times.

Hydraulic brakes another option that's nice to have, but impractical for some, long distance riders, budget riders, back country riders, couriers, commuters. Perhaps down hillers and others who require greater braking power and/or brake lever feel would benefit. Another added "up-sell" for many a bike on the show room floor.

I even saw a YT last night on some of the Lycra bikes, a seat post as a part of the frame. Try selling that bike. Even saw a carbon fiber rotor, with flakes of metal embedded..... craziness.
You're preaching to the choir here. I worked in a bike shop, we could sell a carbon fibre water bottle holder to "cyclists" that was 4g lighter than the aluminum one for $80. 4g is basically a good fart.

The thing is suspension isn't one of those things. Most people probably don't need it, and the sales in my experience reflect this (unless you're talking about the fake big box full suspensions which are sold to kids by the millions so they think they're awesome riders and have a badass bike) . But it does serve a function. The geometry tweaks and other gimmicks probably aren't necessary. A simple swing arm and mono-shock works well enough for most of the world class motocross bikes and they take a beating.

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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by furcifer » May 02 2019 6:47pm

donn wrote:
May 02 2019 5:50pm
furcifer wrote:
May 02 2019 5:01pm
It's really a minor point, but it does go to establishing the need for suspension
State legislators who to a man have never ridden an electric bicycle, have classified 1000W electric bicycles as mopeds - and this is how we know that 1000W electric bicycles categorically need full suspension?

It's just a guess, but I bet if the OP does go ahead with that BBSHD, or for that matter a similar power rated setup, among the other moped "requirements" he's going to neglect, along with the full suspension, would be brake lights, turn signals and rear view mirrors. These are explicit legal requirements for a moped, in contrast to full suspension for which there is no such requirement. Anyone ready to start a crusade for brake lights and turn signals, complete with heaping abuse on any forum members who doesn't think that's really needed?

Let's be clear - state law on electric bicycles is not even adequate to its purposes, let alone any guide to how to choose or operate an electric bicycle.
State legislators are morons when it comes to technical matters. You do know they contract people in the industry to provide input? My step father was a diesel mechanic that did a lot of this for the MTO. The research and recommendations the legislators use to implement these laws are taken from "experts", people with years of experience in the related industries.

Please familiarize yourself in the discussion. I'm suggesting the use of full suspension for it's merits, much like I would also suggest the use of brake lights, turn signals and mirrors. The argument isn't about whether they are or aren't necessary, some people in this forum believe they aren't effective.

Turn signals are effective at indicating to other drivers your intended path. Saying they aren't is stupid. Suspension is effective in helping the rider control the bike. Saying it isn't is kind of stupid.

I'm by no means on a mission to get all ebike outfitted with full suspension. But I feel strongly that it is more effective and superior to rigid frames and thus safer. How effective is directly proportional to the speed and the road conditions. The further and faster you ride the more necessary it becomes.

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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by furcifer » May 02 2019 6:56pm

markz wrote:
May 02 2019 5:30pm
Less laws are better!
I tend to agree. But threads like this make me question me beliefs. If people were responsible and educated we wouldn't need as many laws.

I find the US is sometimes backwards, they don't make laws for a long time, then the first time someone screws up they make a whole bunch of overreaching laws which would be unnecessary if they just let Natural Selection take its course. :mrgreen:

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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by slacker » May 02 2019 7:03pm

Namely because people such as yourself just aren't competent to know any better. I've done a very good job of explaining why it's necessary but you don't seem to understand. written by furcifer and directed at amberwolf. You earlier mentioned the word troll, which is humorous because your response to amberwolf is a good example of troll like behavior. May we all learn from your superior knowledge of all things bicycle related. :shock: p.s. we all have opinions. Only right ones are the ones that work for you. Good luck and godspeed.

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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by donn » May 02 2019 7:08pm

furcifer wrote:
May 02 2019 6:47pm
I'm by no means on a mission to get all ebike outfitted with full suspension. But I feel strongly that it is more effective and superior to rigid frames and thus safer. How effective is directly proportional to the speed and the road conditions. The further and faster you ride the more necessary it becomes.
If only you could have presented your case in terms like that, there would hardly have been any disagreement.

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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by Chalo » May 02 2019 7:15pm

furcifer wrote:
May 02 2019 5:29pm
Chalo wrote:
May 02 2019 5:07pm
Suspension bikes were common well over 100 years ago. They went away because they aren't optimal for the job a bicycle-- even a very fast one-- has to do.
Suspension bikes "went away"?
They did, from sometime before WWI until the early 1990s. (There was a short burst of them in kids' bikes just before BMX became the thing.) In the meantime, the cycle industry had learned that flashy gimmicks that shorten a bike's service life are good business. And they've stuck with that program ever since.
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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by Chalo » May 02 2019 7:21pm

furcifer wrote:
May 02 2019 6:47pm
But I feel strongly that [suspension] is more effective and superior to rigid frames and thus safer. How effective is directly proportional to the speed and the road conditions. The further and faster you ride the more necessary it becomes.
The transcontinental cycling record (from Race Across America) stands at 7 days, 15 hours, 56 minutes. Please look into the bikes used in that event and report back with how many of them have mechanical suspension.
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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by BotoXbz » May 02 2019 7:30pm

Hey OP, I have a BBSHD on my hardtail and it works just fine for almost 2000km, even did a 200km trip with it.
Sure a suspension bike would be better for some situations, but if you ride it like a bicycle most of the time you will have no problem. For me it's still a bicycle with the possibility of keeping up with cars on nice roads, having good acceleration for quicker and safer interaction with traffic and lots of fun climbing and enjoying mountains.
Can't justify spending crazy amounts of money on a suspension bike when I already have a hardtail. Also can't even fit my bigass battery on a suspension bike.
For me it sounds like everybody in here is 100% on the throttle all the time so they need all that extra stuff, my average speed is still 30km/h

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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by furcifer » May 02 2019 8:07pm

Chalo wrote:
May 02 2019 7:15pm
furcifer wrote:
May 02 2019 5:29pm
Chalo wrote:
May 02 2019 5:07pm
Suspension bikes were common well over 100 years ago. They went away because they aren't optimal for the job a bicycle-- even a very fast one-- has to do.
Suspension bikes "went away"?
They did, from sometime before WWI until the early 1990s. (There was a short burst of them in kids' bikes just before BMX became the thing.) In the meantime, the cycle industry had learned that flashy gimmicks that shorten a bike's service life are good business. And they've stuck with that program ever since.
No they didn't. Through the 50's, 60's and into the 70's there were plenty. I'm a 70's baby and even I remember the faux motocross bicycles of the 70's and 80's, with the plastic tank and number. Two chrome shocks on the back.

Image


You don't know much about bikes I reckon.

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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by furcifer » May 02 2019 8:14pm

donn wrote:
May 02 2019 7:08pm
If only you could have presented your case in terms like that, there would hardly have been any disagreement.
Well it's wandered because I'm trying to provide the support to such an opinion based on experience, the law, engineering etc. This is the internet so you have to deal with the goal post moving and pedantry.

Like I've said, most of the arguments are simply bravado. "I'm a super awesome rider so I don't need full suspension". You don't, but just because some people fail to see the need for full suspension doesn't mean it's not beneficial. For most of the thread that's what the argument has reduced to.

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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by donn » May 02 2019 9:16pm

OK, troll on.

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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by Chalo » May 02 2019 10:26pm

furcifer wrote:
May 02 2019 8:07pm
Chalo wrote:
May 02 2019 7:15pm
furcifer wrote:
May 02 2019 5:29pm
Chalo wrote:
May 02 2019 5:07pm
Suspension bikes were common well over 100 years ago. They went away because they aren't optimal for the job a bicycle-- even a very fast one-- has to do.
Suspension bikes "went away"?
They did, from sometime before WWI until the early 1990s.
No they didn't. Through the 50's, 60's and into the 70's there were plenty. Image
I am discussing bikes, not toys, that an adult of sound mind would be willing to ride for transportation.

It's arguable that today's suspension bikes don't quite make it to that level.
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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by furcifer » May 03 2019 4:21am

Chalo wrote:
May 02 2019 10:26pm
I am discussing bikes, not toys, that an adult of sound mind would be willing to ride for transportation.
It's arguable that today's suspension bikes don't quite make it to that level.
After the war people were buying cars, with suspension. It wasn't until the 70's and the gas crisis that people were considering bikes for transportation.

Adults and children of sound mind looking for inexpensive 2 wheeled transportation bought millions of mopeds and small motorcycles, all with suspension. Bicycles were displaced from the market. Then you have the influx of scooters in the 80's, all with suspension. So the market for small, limited speed vehicles being used for transportation for the last 40 years has been mopeds, scooters and small motorcycles, all with suspension.

For the most part over the last 30 years bicycles were used for recreation, with a steady rise in cyclists using them for transportation. You go from a full rigid frame and fork on the average bicycle to a rigid frame with suspension fork during this time.

So suspension in vehicles used for transportation has been used to some degree or another for the last 100 years. Before electrics came to popularity people were using mopeds and scooters. All with suspension. "Ebikes" are displacing them from the market, but most ebikes have full suspension when you think about all those electric scooters being sold by the millions. It's really only the small conversion market when you see these rigid frames being used.

So I don't think you actually want to discuss "bikes" adults are using for transportation. Over the last 40 years almost every small, POWERED bike being used for "transportation" has had full suspension. And that's what we are talking about.

You want to compare the self powered bikes being used for transportation and try to extend it to a small subset of powered bikes being used for transportation.

So I say it again, almost every single similarly powered vehicle (of approximately 1000W) HAS HAD FULL SUSPENSION FOR THE LAST 40 YEARS.

The only reason it hasn't come to popularity with self-powered vehicles being used for transportation is because suspension sucks power. It dampens the forces from the road and from the rider. The only time you want a rigid frame vehicle is when every single watt/hp has to be transmitted into forward motion.

There was a brief trend with moped riders to hard tails. They would take the shocks off and replace them with steel rods. It was just a dumb fad and most converted them back. Today for the most part the moped riders are upgrading their suspensions using small dirt bike forks and gas shocks.

And I'll add this, whether you realize it or not almost all the rigid frame riders are adding some suspension to their bikes. They use bigger tires and keep the air pressure in them low. It's just a piss poor way of getting some suspension in the back. You increase the rolling rate of friction, loose control in turns and have a much higher chance of getting a pinch flat.

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Re: First E-Bike - Doing DIY BBSHD - Critique my plan

Post by furcifer » May 03 2019 4:26am

donn wrote:
May 02 2019 9:16pm
OK, troll on.

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