The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

I'm not really following what you have done, but I think you get the gist of it. The more accurate you get your measurements, the more accurate your spoke length will be, the easier the wheel build.

I just laced an Edge 1500W hub to a 19-inch Holmes MMP rim, using a single-cross pattern. Here is the lacing pattern I found to be the easiest.

I did most of them when they were on their sides (on a table). When I got to the last four spokes, set the rim on its edge, so that the un-spoked holes are at the top.

Do the two inbound spokes first, the two outbound last, always start by the air-stem hole (pencil shown for reference), and move clockwise. I only put each nipple on about three threads, to keep everything loose. They each ended up needing about 21 turns (some more, some less)

If you cross spoke 4 under spoke 4 so they press against each other when under tension, then the wheel may be stronger under loads that would otherwise let them go slack, if the one pressing against the other keeps it from losing as much tension as the wheel rotates, hits bumps, etc.

And so on with the rest of them.

amberwolf said:

If you cross spoke 4 under spoke [1] so they press against each other when under tension, then the wheel may be stronger under loads that would otherwise let them go slack, if the one pressing against the other keeps it from losing as much tension as the wheel rotates, hits bumps, etc.

And so on with the rest of them.

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While that's true, at some point of spoke thickness and shortness, it becomes very difficult to interlace them without bending them rather badly. Once they're kinked where they cross, it's anybody's guess how much they'll help each other stay snug-- each crossed pair will have its own distinct crossing tension. Inconsistency like that probably hurts the wheel more than interlacing helps it.

But for spokes that are thin enough to be flexed into place, interlacing does help make the wheel reliable.

For dished rear wheels, it's usually best to lace all the spokes on the right side of their flanges. That helps balance the tension a bit more than otherwise possible. But it makes the matter of interlacing irrelevant.

I'm doing it right this moment on a Bionx hub at work.

This is only the second wheel I've ever laced, so I don't want new readers to assume I am an expert. I just posted that pic to help others who are starting out to make it a little easier.

How does one choose nipple length (10, 12, 16 or 17mm) when ordering everything online (nips, rim, spokes) ?

Sunringle Rhyno Lite ERD of 549mm

DT Swiss Champion 2.0 at 170mm box of 100
used Justins spoke calculator on mxus 3kw - R is 169.8 and L is 170.4

Brass Nipples (not Alloy not Alum, only Brass!)

It doesnt matter I guess
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64324&p=1102680&hilit=nipple+length#p1102680
12mm seems to be it
http://sheldonbrown.com/spoke-length.html

Doesn’t really matter unless the rim is so deep that you need longer nipples to reach down to the eyelets during assembly.

According to the video that lacing orientation the spokes are never crossing each other physically, I mean not touch each other and there is a 3-4mm gap between them. I tried all the 8 possible variations at home. Is this the correct way following the video?

Thanks.

? My builds the spokes more then touch they have a physical touch. Is this bad ?

I have an Mxus motor laced in a 26" rim (2 cross pattern).
I'm concerned about the spokes (Sapim Strong with Polyax Secure Lock nipples) flexing that way:



This looks weird to me, and after reading this (and other) thread about wheel lacing, I understand 2 cross isn't required and 1 cross is plenty enough. I'm tempted to un-lace it and re-lace myself with a 1 cross patern (never done it before), but I'm not sure this is required and I'd like to avoid any unnecessary hassle.
The grin spoke calculator gives a spoke angle of 67.5° with a 2 cross, and 76° angle with one cross.

Should I leave the wheel as it is right now or rebuild it 1 cross ?

Edit: resized picture

Aeron said:

[img=https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1-FnZENx-HRswMpmPAxAIGquk1Wo7F9J1][/img]

Should I leave the wheel as it is right now or rebuild it 1 cross ?

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With a little use, your spokes will break at the threads. They might do so even if you use cross-1 lacing. But they'll have a better chance.

If there is any difference in angle between the spoke nipple and the spoke exiting it, the chances are good you will have breakages at the threaded ends.

Glad to see a bit more life in this,... AND, looking for a bit of input and opinion.

NEW BUILD,... full custom framed, traditional motorcycle "chopper" style, in other words, typical stretched-fork and capable of carrying two,... ADULT passenger and rider. This means a rear carrying capacity beyond typical bicycle tires, AND yes, a disproportionate weight distribution from front to rear.

A big 3000w QS205 V3 36h is being considered, laced to 100mm 36h 20" bicycle rim to carry a 150/80-16 motorcycle tire.
This makes for some VERY short spokes and extreme spoke angles in a single cross lace. Most large 1000w hub-motors are "straight-laced" into 20" bike rims and is completely unsatisfactory in every way imaginable.

Soooooo,... since this is as much a "radical" custom show build as it is a functional daily rider, I've considered "double-drilling" both hub and motor to 72hole, for a single-cross lace of typical gauge bicycle spokes. This would greatly reduce spoke angle and provide a strong stable build for "motorcycle" weight capacity,.... adult rider, passenger, heavy-weight tire/wheel assembly, AND big hub motor.

NOW,... I believe I have some "special" considerations to note. Like,... the lateral spoke-hole spacing of hub relative to the 4" "fat-bike" rim.

Opinions? Thoughts? Suggestions? Anybody???

If you use a 16" motorcycle rim, you may be able to get one with spoke holes oriented for the oblique angles of your spokes. And you will have a rim that can take very high tension on thick 12ga or 10ga spokes. If you're going to load two adults over essentially only one wheel, it may as well be a motorcycle wheel.

Most large 1000w hub-motors are "straight-laced" into 20" bike rims and is completely unsatisfactory in every way imaginable.

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There was a time I would have thought so, too. But when the hub motor is fairly close to the diameter of the rim, that's probably your best bet, unless you feel like drilling extra holes in your hub.

I radially laced my X5305 to a very sturdy 20" BMX rim, and it's had no problems at all. The spokes are only 68mm long, but they've stayed tight and the wheel has stayed perfectly true. It's the front wheel of my front loading cycle truck, so it has to cope with large amounts of dead weight pounding on it. So far so good.

Aeron said:

?

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This looks like the first rim I laced. Iv'e not laced many but is this caused by the nipple head sitting flat on the eyelet (inside the rim)? Or is it the nipple shaft held at that angle inside the eyelet? I'm wondering if those little cup shaped washers wouldn't set it up at a different angle?

Chalo said:

Most large 1000w hub-motors are "straight-laced" into 20" bike rims and is completely unsatisfactory in every way imaginable.

Click to expand...

There was a time I would have thought so, too. But when the hub motor is fairly close to the diameter of the rim, that's probably your best bet, unless you feel like drilling extra holes in your hub.

I radially laced my X5305 to a very sturdy 20" BMX rim, and it's had no problems at all. The spokes are only 68mm long, but they've stayed tight and the wheel has stayed perfectly true. It's the front wheel of my front loading cycle truck, so it has to cope with large amounts of dead weight pounding on it. So far so good.

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Ditto on this for the 20" wheels on CrazyBike2's and SB Cruiser's unsuspended rear wheels supporting their heavy cargo areas. Even pothole hits that have bent the bead seat edge of the rim flat have not destroyed the wheels. It did unround the wheel and untension some of the spokes a little, but it was perfectly rideable and still works to this day--even after unlacing it from one motor and relacing it to another (when yet another big hit broke the motor axle on the X5304 but didn't damage the wheel itself).





A half-radial / half 1-cross lacing broke 1-cross spokes, though I forget where the break was now, but probably the j bend. They were bent not at the nipple, but further down the spoke, as an experiment with Justin_LE to see if this would prevent spoke breakage...but it still broke because it amounted to an improperly tensioned spoke due to teh flex at the bend.

AH THANKS guy,... knew youd be of some help here. But let me clarify my concerns a bit more.

Chalo said:

If you use a 16" motorcycle rim, you may be able to get one with spoke holes oriented for the oblique angles of your spokes. And you will have a rim that can take very high tension on thick 12ga or 10ga spokes. If you're going to load two adults over essentially only one wheel, it may as well be a motorcycle wheel.

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A motorcycle rim HAS been considered, but they are typically 40h, making it rather incompatible with a 36h hub. AND, unless hub is specifically a 40h motorcycle hub, I'm not terribly thrilled with heavy gauge spokes in a bicycle hub motor flange. Nor am I thrilled with an unnecessarily heavy motorcycle rim. I really have no qualms of using a bike rim and "double-drilling" both to reduce spoke angle,... I believe this will add plenty of stable strength with typical 12ga spokes.

Most large 1000w hub-motors are "straight-laced" into 20" bike rims and is completely unsatisfactory in every way imaginable.

There was a time I would have thought so, too. But when the hub motor is fairly close to the diameter of the rim, that's probably your best bet, unless you feel like drilling extra holes in your hub.

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Drilling extras are no real issue, except for cost, and this IS a unique custom build in most every way. While I HAVE seen radical straight-laced custom motorcycles, they were 100+ spoke numbers of very heavy gauge,...fancy? or jus "show"? I HAD considered full custom "mag" style hub/rim, but a matching front hub becomes difficult, besides, I would like to retain a "bicycle" appearance, however unusual.

I radially laced my X5305 to a very sturdy 20" BMX rim, and it's had no problems at all. The spokes are only 68mm long, but they've stayed tight and the wheel has stayed perfectly true. It's the front wheel of my front loading cycle truck, so it has to cope with large amounts of dead weight pounding on it. So far so good.

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AH, yes,... the "dead weight" of two adults is of some concern, but I'm sure 72spokes handles that issue with no problem. My BIGGEST concern is the lateral forces of two shifting adults on this setup. Unlike a narrower BMX rim, "Fat-bike" rims on a hub-motor, tend to having a poor lateral triangulation due to rims being made for wider "fatbike" hubs rather than narrow hub motors. THIS is the reason I would prefer motorcycle rims,... but 16" 36h motorcycle rims jus aren't to be found.

Am I jus over thinking this? Will this poor lateral triangulation be of concern in such a setup? And my BIG QUESTION,...Would there be a difficulty in "cross-lacing" laterally? Although uncommon, would this lateral "cross lacing" be unreasonable to consider?

If your room holes aren't distinctly canted towards one side or the other of the wheel, then you probably can lace across to the other side. I have done this with Weinmann DHL42 rims. DHL65 has too much tilt in the holes. DHL80 would probably work.

Once you have the rim in your possession, you can make an assessment as to whether lacing across is feasible. Just like ordinary cross-lacing, the clue that it's not going to work is when the nipples and the spokes are not in line with each other.

Chalo said:

With a little use, your spokes will break at the threads. They might do so even if you use cross-1 lacing. But they'll have a better chance.

If there is any difference in angle between the spoke nipple and the spoke exiting it, the chances are good you will have breakages at the threaded ends.

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If I understand correctly, the angle itself and number of cross do not matter, as long as the spoke isn't aligned with the nipple it'll break. Or are you saying even 1 cross won't work ? (It's a common XF40-30H, I believed those were commonly laced into 26" rims without trouble).

Ozzzz said:

This looks like the first rim I laced. Iv'e not laced many but is this caused by the nipple head sitting flat on the eyelet (inside the rim)? Or is it the nipple shaft held at that angle inside the eyelet? I'm wondering if those little cup shaped washers wouldn't set it up at a different angle?

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I didn't lace it myself so I don't really know. I'll disassemble it anyway so I'll see, but I believe the nipples are just "maxed out" angle-wise, they can't go further and this angle is not enough to accomodate the angle required by the cross pattern.

I hope 1 cross will work, because I'm not sure a radial pattern is a good idea.

When lacing a rear hub motor in a one-cross pattern with all the spokes exiting on the same side, do you put the spokes which are stretched on acceleration on the outside (like it is done in the Grin lacing YouTube video), do you put them on the inside or do you put them diffently on the right side than on the left side?

hias9 said:

When lacing a rear hub motor in a one-cross pattern with all the spokes exiting on the same side, do you put the spokes which are stretched on acceleration on the outside (like it is done in the Grin lacing YouTube video), do you put them on the inside or do you put them diffently on the right side than on the left side?

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If you are talking about the crossover itself, the simple answer is that it simple doesn't matter.

The side which you have all the spokes coming out of should be chosen with the following two goals in mind
1) making sure that the spoke bends don't rub against your derailleur or disk rotor (an issue with some hub motors that require heads facing out and elbows in).
2) keeping the tension of the left and right spokes in the dished rim as close to match as allowed. This often means in dished wheels that you have all the elbows IN on one flange, and OUT on the other, as long as that doesn't conflict with objective #1

I find brass washers under spokes has help big on my 1,500 edge at 3,000 Watt .My muxus 3,000 at 5,000 watts no washers I understand the power and weight different. But broken spokes no broken spokes. ?

Just built my first wheel but feel like the spokes should be closer to the flange especially on the inside. Should I get some washers to try and bring them closer or just role with it? This is a 24" rim using Sapim Strong's and DT Swiss 350 Boost on a 1500w mid drive cargo bike with 240 pound rider if that info helps. Oh and my cheap spoke gauge claims about 120kg on the drive side and 80 on the brake side so they should be tight enough.

While writing this I remembered I had some M3 washers so I played with them and the front hub. The inside spokes on the front hub could probably use a washer and the outside didn't but I did discover that it wouldn't make the spoke lay flat against the flange like I had hoped. Since the rear hub is about 0.6mm thicker washers are probably not going to help. I tried to use a crank arm as a prybar to press the inside spokes closer to the flange but they wouldn't budge. Should I unlace it and try to bend the spokes against the flange or just leave it be and hope for the best?

And if anyone finds this trying to see if Sapim Strong's or any 2.3mm spokes fit the DT Swiss 350 they don't. I had to drill them out from 2.6 to 2.75mm and still had to force them a tiny bit at the bend. They actually fit the 350 front hub with flange thickness of about 3.25mm but rear hub flange is around 3.85mm. This is what I get for relying on first and only post I found on a random forum when I searched for "DT Swiss 350 Sapim Strong".

y Stormsorter » Aug 22 2021 3:45pm

Just built my first wheel but feel like the spokes should be closer to the flange especially on the inside. Should I get some washers to try and bring them closer or just role with it? This is a 24" rim using Sapim Strong's and DT Swiss 350 Boost on a 1500w mid drive cargo bike with 240 pound rider if that info helps. Oh and my cheap spoke gauge claims about 120kg on the drive side and 80 on the brake side so they should be tight enough.

While writing this I remembered I had some M3 washers so I played with them and the front hub. The inside spokes on the front hub could probably use a washer and the outside didn't but I did discover that it wouldn't make the spoke lay flat against the flange like I had hoped. Since the rear hub is about 0.6mm thicker washers are probably not going to help. I tried to use a crank arm as a prybar to press the inside spokes closer to the flange but they wouldn't budge. Should I unlace it and try to bend the spokes against the flange or just leave it be and hope for the best?

And if anyone finds this trying to see if Sapim Strong's or any 2.3mm spokes fit the DT Swiss 350 they don't. I had to drill them out from 2.6 to 2.75mm and still had to force them a tiny bit at the bend. They actually fit the 350 front hub with flange thickness of about 3.25mm but rear hub flange is around 3.85mm. This is what I get for relying on first and only post I found on a random forum when I searched for "DT Swiss 350 Sapim Strong".

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Looking at the picture I can see that some spoke cross correctly and others do not. They should lay on each other to stay tight. The spoke that is not laying on the flange should cross the other spoke on the opposite side.

I havent used brass washers, just whatever the local fastener store have.
Washers with a middle hole sufficient enough to fit somewhat snuggly the spoke at J-bend.

I have also used the same washers that fit the nipple, for when using motorcycle rims.
I just find it very hard to calculate and measure the ERD of a motorcycle rim. I think it has to do with the angled nipple hole in the rim. I was off by a lot the last lace job, I just fixed it by using 4 or 5 washers and made 100% sure the rim tape was very thick, and used a motorcycle hd tube. Because its a single wall rim, not sure if any motorcycle rims come in double wall. But I buy used motorcycle rims, last one was a 17" with 2.50-3.00 tire. This go around I am back on bicycle rim, 26 with 2.10 tire and about 3 or 4 broken spokes and wobbly tire, been riding like that for months now. If it was a rear setup it wouldnt last a couple weeks. Thats why I love front hub setups. 375lbs along with the rotation of motor with built good setup with brand name parts done lacing to the T, wouldnt last long for rear.

Going to a 19x3.00 next for front hub, but tires are all sold out on motorcycle catologue website, but havent walked into motorcycle store yet to see what they have. Its always hard to find local stores selling thin tires for mopeds, they have to order it in from 3-4 catologues, 2 of which are specialized. Kimpex is common

I'm trying to warm up to a DD in a 20" wheel, just can't do it yet. Ordered a 24", the spoke angel will be off a few degrees. Thinking about a drill to get the 3 deg. Thinking more about paired spokes more and more. Any bad news on that front?

Have been rereading wheel-building to see what I have missed or don't remember. Don't build enough wheels, it's like a new adventure each time. I may break down and go moped someday or 7T motors in 29" wheels.