Tesla Model 3

Buildings get rewired periodically anyway so including outlets for EV charging doesn't have to be a huge deal. Upgrades to incoming feed and substations is a bigger deal but not insurmountable. It's not like ever building and street needs upgrading over night. We're talking about a gradual adoption over ~10 years.

The incentive to upgrade will be driven by housing/rental prices. Those with EV charging will command a higher price, just like offroad/allocated parking already does.

billvon said:

Arlo1 said:

Its not recommended to rely on a L1 (15a 120Vac outlet) You will wear out the connections and your cable as well its super slow for charging when you really don't want it to be.

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We have 42 Level 1 chargers, in use 8-10 hours a day, 250 days a year. No "wearing out" the connections. You have to use decent outlets, of course, not Home Depot $0.49 specials. And slower charging is better for batteries anyway.

Again, the only thing that matters is that you get enough charge to get where you are going. And 40 miles a day added at work is enough for everyone here to get home. Want to charge faster? Go for it. But it's a "nice to have" not a "need" for people who charge at work / at home for their commute. (Of course we still have people who get mad when they can't get one of the L2 chargers. Human nature.)

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L2 Is slow charging in most cases and you will be hard pressed to find data that shows L1 is any better for the battery then L2.

I would never recommend charging from L1 if you were not able to fill up over night.
Its also much worse to keep your battery close to 100% SOC. So charging from L2 1 time a week to 90% or something is much better for it then to charge to 90% every night from L1.

Also no matter the socket the more you connect and disconnect from it the faster it wears out. Its not just the socket its also the cable and other adapters.

Arlo1 said:

Its also much worse to keep your battery close to 100% SOC. So charging from L2 1 time a week to 90% or something is much better for it then to charge to 90% every night from L1.

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And charging to 80% via level 1 overnight is better still.

Also no matter the socket the more you connect and disconnect from it the faster it wears out. Its not just the socket its also the cable and other adapters.

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Well, like I said, we have data from 42 level 2 chargers that have been in use for 2 years now, so ~700 cycles - and no problems. And if there is a problem? It takes 5 minutes to replace an outlet.

The challenge over the coming years will be how to support a rapidly growing number of EV's on the road. Level 1 charging for owners and businesses is the cheapest (and easiest on the grid) way to make that happen. Level 2 and 3 for shopping centers, rest stops and the like also make sense - but they won't be most people's primary method of charging. And if the challenge is to provide charge for 50 parking lot users, level 1 is often the only way to make that happen economically.

billvon said:

Arlo1 said:

Its also much worse to keep your battery close to 100% SOC. So charging from L2 1 time a week to 90% or something is much better for it then to charge to 90% every night from L1.

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And charging to 80% via level 1 overnight is better still.

Also no matter the socket the more you connect and disconnect from it the faster it wears out. Its not just the socket its also the cable and other adapters.

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Well, like I said, we have data from 42 level 2 chargers that have been in use for 2 years now, so ~700 cycles - and no problems. And if there is a problem? It takes 5 minutes to replace an outlet.

The challenge over the coming years will be how to support a rapidly growing number of EV's on the road. Level 1 charging for owners and businesses is the cheapest (and easiest on the grid) way to make that happen. Level 2 and 3 for shopping centers, rest stops and the like also make sense - but they won't be most people's primary method of charging. And if the challenge is to provide charge for 50 parking lot users, level 1 is often the only way to make that happen economically.

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What I am getting at is it's hard to worry about your battery being so low so with 120Vac charging people tend to charge as far as they can. And the current into the battery with l2 is so far below what the battery can do that you won't see any difference charging with l1vs l2

Arlo1 said:

L2 Is slow charging in most cases and you will be hard pressed to find data that shows L1 is any better for the battery then L2.

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You'd have to define L2 though. If I remember correctly, standard permits up to 19kW charging with L2, while L1 will be something like 1.2kW. For 24kW Leaf or 13kW Zero that would be a quite significant difference. A 100kW Tesla wouldn't care less.

I would never recommend charging from L1 if you were not able to fill up over night.

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That's a logistical problem. Obviously the user needs the kind of EV use and charge model that doesn't significantly impact their ability to go places they need to go and to do stuff they need to do.

Its also much worse to keep your battery close to 100%

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Many vehicles either completely take that option away from the user and reserve capacity, or at least default away from it and discourage charging to 100%.

Also no matter the socket the more you connect and disconnect from it the faster it wears out. Its not just the socket its also the cable and other adapters.

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Much cheaper / easier to replace 120v devices yourself without involving electricians, like Bill said. L2 equipment is an additional expense and installation can be quite expensive. L2 equipment also tends to break, and often has flaws. I currently have a Blink charger that's doing some crazy stuff, and I can't figure out why it's not working.

So in the end, each person will decide for themselves what works for them. But I agree with Bill, convenience and abundance of L1 is difficult to surpass.

Agreed that step one is being able to do your own electrical work


I found that if you go to HomeDepot they make it real simple.
White romex
Yellow romex
Orange romex

15A, 20A, 30A

So if I go with orange
Which should be 10/3
I get L1, L2, N, gnd
I get 240V @ 30A
I get 7ish KW



Yea...
I had this thing they call "L1" on a 2015 Chevy Volt
By default it would draw less than 15A... To get it to draw more I would have to command it to...

I would forget to plug it in all the time. . . or stupid GFCI breaker was blowing... or room mate was using extension cord for garden work...

Every day I was driving over big hill... 50 miles each way... battery dead... just wailing on gas motor...

Miserable experience



...


I completely disagree with the assertions made previously that Apartment dwellers are anywhere close to being prime time. I have lived in 20 apartment complexes. Those guys are capitalist bastards (at the low end). Maybe these luxury appartments... yea... L2 charging.

Maybe at some of the low end... L1 charging

But

When I need to get to work
When I need to pick up my kid
When....

....

All the theory in the world wont get me there.

I need access to Level 3+ charge stations. As easy to find as a Gas Station. I can sit there for 15 minutes on my phone answering work emails... maybe 20min.

To argue against DC ... eh ... I would not take that position.

...


I have personally run over 50 "range anxiety" exercises. In the last 90 days I have had to call out roadside assistance 3 times while I was stuck on the side of the road....

There is a lot to the reality of being an irresponsible EV owner (i.e. a normal, non-ev-bent person)

I believe it would be good for some of us to run some of these exercises...
See what it is like for the regular Joe...

Cant charge at home
Contention for charger at work
... AINT prime-time yet

-methods

cricketo said:

Arlo1 said:

L2 Is slow charging in most cases and you will be hard pressed to find data that shows L1 is any better for the battery then L2.

Click to expand...

You'd have to define L2 though. If I remember correctly, standard permits up to 19kW charging with L2, while L1 will be something like 1.2kW. For 24kW Leaf or 13kW Zero that would be a quite significant difference. A 100kW Tesla wouldn't care less.

Click to expand...

Talking about Model 3 and your standard 32amp 240Vac L2

methods said:

I had this thing they call "L1" on a 2015 Chevy Volt
By default it would draw less than 15A... To get it to draw more I would have to command it to...

Click to expand...

Yeah. 12A is standard for L1; that way you are drawing 80% of a 15 amp circuit (limit for long term draw.) You can futz with the pilot signal to "tell" the car it's OK to draw 16 amps (80% of 20 amp circuit) but not all cars will support 16 amp charging at 120 volts.

It's the Tesla Model 3 sucking Sweden's grid dry.
Sweden's Electric Car Boom Is Under Threat From Power Crunch
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-12/sweden-s-electric-car-boom-is-under-threat-from-power-crunch?srnd=premium-asia

Well.. 7000 sold cars in 5 months, 20% being pure electric.

3400 pure electric cars this year won't bring swedens electric grid down.. Maybe when all cars are electric and if we don't adjust the capacity the coming ten years.

That bloomberg article is mostly based on "what if" assumptions so not really interesting or factual. Thought they were credible.

larsb said:

3400 pure electric cars this year won't bring swedens electric grid down.. Maybe when all cars are electric and if we don't adjust the capacity the coming ten years. That bloomberg article is mostly based on "what if" assumptions so not really interesting or factual. Thought they were credible.

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Yep. And even if they do get to the point where they are all EV, charging at night solves that particular problem.

I watch annoyed Tesla owner videos all the time on YouTube but I forget about them just as quickly..
But I haven't posted much negative news lately so here is a new one

This one out today has an angry Tesla Model 3 owner complaining that his minor car accident has caused his Tesla repairs to be 4 months of waiting, he summarizes his experience with Tesla that this is just crap waiting 4 months for minor car repairs.
Edit. Most importantly he says that this was the only repair shop he was allowed to take his Tesla to at 1minute 15secs https://youtu.be/Rfyrl4xls7k?t=75

[youtube]Rfyrl4xls7k[/youtube]

TheBeastie said:

This one out today has an angry Tesla Model 3 owner complaining that his minor car accident has caused his Tesla repairs to be 4 months of waiting, he summarizes his experience with Tesla that this is just crap waiting 4 months for minor car repairs.

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So this guy gets in a fender bender. And rather than driving it with a bent bumper he leaves it at a body shop.

OK fine his choice.

Then the body shop breaks the glass roof through their incompetence. And then they order the wrong replacement glass. And now they are waiting for the right one to come in.

And this is all Tesla's fault. It is UNACCEPTABLE.

Wow. Some seriously entitled people out there in the world today.

Yup ^+1

If you're forced to take the car to a Tesla approved garage for repair, and/or there were problems getting hold of spare parts then that is Tesla's fault. However it's with their aftersales service, nothing to do with the viability of the technology or the reliability of their product.

Having to wait more than a couple of days for a genuine spare part for a car still in production is a pisstake, whatever the marque. It does sound like an outlier experience, though.

Punx0r said:

If you're forced to take the car to a Tesla approved garage for repair, and/or there were problems getting hold of spare parts then that is Tesla's fault.

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Right. But that wasn't the case. This guy had to go to Rickenbacker's Auto Body because his insurance (State Farm) wouldn't pay for any other shop in the area.

Having to wait more than a couple of days for a genuine spare part for a car still in production is a pisstake, whatever the marque.

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Hmm. Getting a unique body part/color isn't something that seems like it would take 'a couple of days.' I've dealt with half a dozen body shops, and almost universally the car goes in, they look at it, I get the car back, then they wait for the two weeks it takes to get the parts. Then it goes in for the repair.

Ah, yeah, if Tesla didn't pick the bodyshop then how can it be Tesla's fault if they screw up?!

I was thinking of the acquiring a replacement glass for the roof. Pre-coloured body parts should be in stock if the colour is one of the standard ones (or in primer). If it's a custom or special order colour then I agree you're going to have to wait.

Regarding spare parts generally, you pay through the nose for them, not because they're better, but because they're guaranteed to fit/work and they're kept in stock. This is most peoples' expectation of all car makers and not aimed specifically at Tesla.

Because all you have to do is what MSM on TV to hear about how amazing Tesla is I naturally focus on the other opinions out there to get an even perspective.
New news article here is about as gloomy on Tesla as you could ask for, enjoy.

The article says it's quite possible Tesla lost $840 million in this most recent quarter, which would be ending this weekend.
Massive Losses & Tens of Billions Of Dollars In Debt Means Tesla Is A Zero
https://www.valuewalk.com/2019/06/tesla-short-stock/


The article also links to the fascinating article on how China is now moving to Hydrogen, they are pulling all subsidies away from lithium battery based vehicles and only going to subsidize Hydrogen.

In Australia, there is constant news of how some new metals mine needs to create a mild level radioactive sludge lake, or how a gold mine needs a cyanide dam, or how a lead, copper, nickel processing plant requires a regular toxic sludge lake...
Metals mining/processing is very dirty, processing nickel at around 100 tonnes of co2 per tonne of nickel is common, metals are what these batteries are made of, its an example of the madness of the world for these processed finished result vehicles go to the rest of the world are considered clean/zero emissions.
Telsa is so worried about lack of supply for its battery metals it has openly gone to the press about it, which is remarkable for a company that has a lot of never to be profitable gimmick companies just to look green like Solar City/power-walls etc.
https://electrek.co/2019/05/02/tesla-shortage-battery-minerals-nickle-copper-lithium/
https://techcrunch.com/2019/06/11/tesla-might-get-into-the-mining-business-to-secure-minerals-for-electric-batteries/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-lithium-electric-tesla-exclusive/exclusive-tesla-expects-global-shortage-of-electric-vehicle-battery-minerals-sources-idUSKCN1S81QS

https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-news/business/technology/55602/electric-vehicles-emit-more-co2-than-diesel-ones-german-study-shows/

So it makes sense that China is now looking at just processing natural gas into Hydrogen, as it's technically cleaner because you don't have toxic metal processing mines left over to make your car.

China’s electric vehicle industry hit hard by policy shift as Beijing turns toward hydrogen fuel
https://chinadailymail.com/2019/06/01/chinas-electric-vehicle-industry-hit-hard-by-policy-shift-as-beijing-turns-toward-hydrogen-fuel/

A lithium battery has several drawbacks when compared with a hydrogen fuel cell, which uses hydrogen gas as power.

Lithium batteries contain heavy metals such as nickel, cobalt, and manganese, and the mining process to extract such metals can cause pollution to nearby water sources. Meanwhile, processing of copper, lithium, and other metals create toxic waste that, if not treated and recycled properly, can cause serious environmental problems.

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TheBeastie said:

In Australia, there is constant news of how some new metals mine needs to create a mild level radioactive sludge lake, or how a gold mine needs a cyanide dam, or how a lead, copper, nickel processing plant requires a regular toxic sludge lake...

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As he writes this from a tech metal-rich personal computer....

What is your point man? Don't be a hypocrite? Because we all fail at that.

TheBeastie said:

Telsa is so worried about lack of supply for its battery metals it has openly gone to the press about it

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Cool. They are selling so many cars they are having a hard time keeping up with raw materials. A good place to be.

So it makes sense that China is now looking at just processing natural gas into Hydrogen, as it's technically cleaner because you don't have toxic metal processing mines left over to make your car.

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But you end up with huge pools of deadly toxic metal sludge from the catalysts they use for the steam reforming process. You must be a hypocrite too, eh?

Lithium batteries contain heavy metals such as nickel, cobalt, and manganese, and the mining process to extract such metals can cause pollution to nearby water sources.

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Just like the catalysts used to make hydrogen! Killing kids by the score!

Meanwhile, processing of copper, lithium, and other metals create toxic waste that, if not treated and recycled properly, can cause serious environmental problems.

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Just like hydrogen!

BTW some bad news for the haters:
===========================
Tesla Soars as Model 3 Paces Record Quarter of Deliveries
By Dana Hull
July 2, 2019 Bloomberg

Tesla Inc. shares surged in late trading as a record quarter of deliveries alleviated the worst fears about demand for the Elon Musk-led company’s electric vehicles.

The Model 3 maker handed over 95,200 cars to customers in the three months that ended in June, exceeding the previous best mark set in the last quarter of 2018. Tesla’s delivery count exceeded all but one analyst’s estimate in a Bloomberg News survey.

Tesla shares soared as much as 9.1% in late trading Tuesday in New York, which would be the biggest gain of 2019 on a closing basis. The stock was down 33% for the year through the end of regular trading, in part due to demand concerns that the company’s billionaire chief executive officer has repeatedly disputed.
===============================

Saw this on Twitter

Apparently, they are really giving away the Tesla Model 3's now.
The M3 Performance was $73k late last year now you can get it for under $55k now.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_kPjeZUIAEx2H2?format=png&name=small



This Reddit guy (seems to be typical for Reddit people are the most clueless), he got a M3-Performance last quarter for a price premium and it ended up being riddled with defects, didn't carefully inspect his car on delivery, and its going to take a while for it to get fixed, and now he's just found out about the new price cuts.


https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-cuts-prices-model-lineup-changes-2019-7?r=US&IR=T

Why our friends from Down Under are so negative and why @TheBeastie and @Hillhater hate Tesla sow much?
I was scratching my head to the point of bleeding, and finally it dawned on me.
Pacific peso is 1.43 to US $1 (today's rate). They just can't afford to buy Tesla. The only hope for them will be if Chinese make something real cheap. Something like Yugo electric. Don't worry guys, they will make it, and then you will really have something to hate.
@Punx0r Miramar is not a dump by any stretch of imagination. It is an industrial area of San Diego, but is still nice by world standards. The only Porsche and Audi dealers are on Miramar Road. UTC (University Town Center) is on the west end of Miramar Rd. and it is a very elegant shopping mall. If you call that area a dump, you can call 95% of London that. You need to understand that San Diego is a superb city with paradise climate, and most of people will give an arm and a kidney to live here, but they still couldn't afford it.
Tesla still has a showroom in UTC as well as in Fashion Valley, another top notch shopping mall here in San Diego.
I think that San Diego is the most livable city in California and one of the best in the world. The only people who are moving out of here are those who can't make it.

It's just those two guys really. The rest of us don't carry on like autistic 12-year-olds.

The West Pacific Peso is pretty bad right now - everything costs 50% more than the quoted USD. And if China starts making stuff, we'll still be charged in USD, because the USD is China's official currency

Ecyclist said:

Why our friends from Down Under are so negative and why @TheBeastie and @Hillhater hate Tesla sow much?

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I think it's a right wing thing. They oppose climate change science, alternative energy, EV's - such opposition is pretty much mandated by their ideology.

@Punx0r Miramar is not a dump by any stretch of imagination. It is an industrial area of San Diego, but is still nice by world standards.

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And contains some of California's best breweries. Alesmith, Pure Project, Hess, Ballast Point - and about a dozen others.

I'm glad to hear Miramar is not a dump. I forget the post that seemed to indicate it was. Perhaps it was just in relation to the area by the air base?

FWIW 90-95% of greater London would be accurately described as a dump. I'm not an automatic fanboi of wherever I happen to live or grew up.