Poor Man's RV

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
User avatar
Chalo   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7961
Joined: Apr 29 2009 11:29pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by Chalo » Jun 02 2019 6:24pm

Electric Earth wrote:
Jun 02 2019 4:06pm
These are plastic of some sort, but seem to have a good rating after lots of reviews. They might be a good value.
https://www.amazon.com/Imrider-Lightwei ... way&sr=8-3
"Polyamide" is nylon made by someone other than DuPont. Nylon pedals are, generally speaking, cheap junk. Polycarbonate pedals can look almost identical to nylon pedals, and can be almost as cheap to buy, but hold up much better in the long run.

Odyssey Twisted PC are very common and inexpensive polycarbonate pedals that are proven to be as trouble-free as anything on the market. They come in lots of different colors if that's your thing. Mostly I sell black ones.

Glass fiber filler makes nylon into a much more robust material, so if there's a lot of glass filler in the above linked pedals, they might be just fine.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 13959
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by neptronix » Jun 02 2019 7:17pm

donn wrote:
Jun 02 2019 6:17pm
I don't know, I can't say I've ever ridden a short wheelbase recumbent, but it doesn't seem to me like the right direction for an electric.
I have not ridden a short wheelbase semi recumbent either but i'd probably agree with you that it's not probably not ebike material.

This bike, the maxarya ray 2, is currently in production.

Image

However it is going to take some creativity to mount a good sized battery.
( my Cannondale is no walk in the park to mount a battery either, but at least it's possible ).
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

donn   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 396
Joined: Aug 13 2018 10:30am
Location: Seattle

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by donn » Jun 02 2019 9:18pm

neptronix wrote:
Jun 02 2019 7:17pm
However it is going to take some creativity to mount a good sized battery.
( my Cannondale is no walk in the park to mount a battery either, but at least it's possible ).
Yes, they really missed a bet when the cut the frame at the seat, instead of continuing out in back for a suspended luggage mount.

In this video Anne's Maxarya Ray 2 recumbent with e-assist, it's on the handlebar mast. Isn't the first time I've seen pictures of such a thing. Of course I'd immediately be looking for a way to convert it to under seat steering, so I'd have to think of something else even if that's a practical spot to put a heavy battery. I just lashed mine up so it dangles from the frame tube. Anyway, this bike has rear suspension and 20" wheels, which is a good start.

I notice he mentions one of the points where a motor takes some of the awkwardness out of recumbent riding - starting off from a stop. The video also has a few scary moments where oncoming bicyclists pass on the wrong side. If I ever get to New Zealand, I suppose I'd better walk.

markz   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7540
Joined: Jan 09 2014 11:38pm
Location: Alberta Canada

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by markz » Jun 02 2019 10:10pm

Why look-eeee-here - https://www.danscomp.com/products/46505 ... edals.html
Get some spokes while your at eeerrrrrr

Can't tell how much glass fiber is in a component if there is no stamping on it, other then taking a knife to a section and cutting it to hear the sound it makes would confirm some glass fiber.

Chalo wrote:
Jun 02 2019 6:24pm
Odyssey Twisted PC are very common and inexpensive polycarbonate pedals that are proven to be as trouble-free as anything on the market. They come in lots of different colors if that's your thing. Mostly I sell black ones.

Glass fiber filler makes nylon into a much more robust material, so if there's a lot of glass filler in the above linked pedals, they might be just fine.

User avatar
amberwolf   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 27529
Joined: Aug 17 2009 6:43am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by amberwolf » Jun 02 2019 11:03pm

kauaicycler wrote:
Jun 02 2019 8:00am
I saw Justin's post about his trans Canadian trip and his bike had a pedal forward design which allowed him to wear regular clothes. I think something like that might be ideal. Any thoughts or suggestions?
Only that the CrazyBike2 has been called similar to his cross-canada bike; I didn't know about his when I built mine, but it is a similar layout, and the basic CB2 design did have a seattube (that I didn't use) under the semirecumbent suspended-mesh seatframe. But I always just ride in regular clothes (or those needed for wahtever weather I have to ride in).

I did originally start out to build a saddle-style ride, but by the time I got as far as the CB2 setup, I'd already tried out the suspended-mesh idea, and decided I really preferred it for my back / etc., especially with the roads here and my lack of any kind of decent suspension or ability to make or buy one. So...you could build a CB2-style setup, but use a seatpost and saddle, if you wanted to. You'd still be lower to the ground, but could be completely upright instead of slightly leaning back. Dunno how well that would work with the feet-forward part of the design; you'd probably have to mvoe the seattube/post forward from the position I have it in.

Basic side view
Image

More or less the last working version (with the canopy, which you probably wouldn't want, but helps me a lot here especially in summer)
Image
Image

With a trailer on it
Image
Image


Here's me in traffic, courtesy of googlestreetview: (click for full size)
Image


CB2 and SBC (in one of it's first few versions) along with Yogi and Tiny:
Image

Warren   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1326
Joined: Oct 05 2010 11:35am

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by Warren » Jun 03 2019 8:34am

Chalo wrote:
Jun 02 2019 5:11pm


It's true that the basic layout of a bicycle hasn't been improved upon since then, though many things have been tried.
Adding pedals to the hobby horse, didn't make it a practical vehicle, which is why it has been abandoned by everyone but fanatics.

User avatar
Chalo   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7961
Joined: Apr 29 2009 11:29pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by Chalo » Jun 03 2019 1:43pm

Warren wrote:
Jun 03 2019 8:34am
Chalo wrote:
Jun 02 2019 5:11pm


It's true that the basic layout of a bicycle hasn't been improved upon since then, though many things have been tried.
Adding pedals to the hobby horse, didn't make it a practical vehicle, which is why it has been abandoned by everyone but fanatics.
Since there are only a little over 2 billion bicycles in use worldwide, I guess you could say the idea was abandoned by everyone, and that those two billion plus people are fanatics. I mean, that's not even double the number of cars in use in the world. Only one and three-quarters times as many.

Out of that number, there must be at least fifty or sixty recumbents, though. So it isn't all hopeless fanatics. :lol:
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

User avatar
wturber   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1999
Joined: Aug 23 2017 8:52pm
Location: Fountain Hills,AZ
Contact:

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by wturber » Jun 03 2019 2:27pm

None of these points make much sense unless you provide context and include specifics about the intended use. A standard safety bicycle configuration dominates because it is a generally very good design for the low 50-75 watt pedal output used by the typical short trip cyclist who is going 10-14 mph. This is the category that dominates cycling. The recumbent offers more disadvantages here than advantages. So upright dominance is no surprise.

It is when you move outside of that dominant use pattern that other designs show advantages. In this thread, we are talking about long distance electric assisted riding at speeds typically around 20 mph and possibly up to 30 mph. This seems like a really good use case for recumbents to me.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

Electric Earth   1 W

1 W
Posts: 61
Joined: Nov 11 2018 8:02pm

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by Electric Earth » Jun 03 2019 3:56pm

A recumbent seems to me like much more of a niche "fun" bike for long, relaxing rides on your day off. It doesn't seem like it would be as practical as a regular bike for touring. Especially not in the case of the OP where he plans on doing many extended miles on gravel trails and very hilly/mountain terrain, going through lots of stop-and-go town traffic, along county highways with big semi-trucks and neanderthal-minded angry bike haters blasting past, etc. There are just so many situations where bike handling(safety), regular stop-and-go, and hill climbing outweigh a little high speed efficiency. And that's not even starting in on where to mount four panniers and a big battery.

billvon   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2840
Joined: Sep 16 2007 9:53pm
Location: san diego

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by billvon » Jun 03 2019 4:03pm

Electric Earth wrote:
Jun 03 2019 3:56pm
A recumbent seems to me like much more of a niche "fun" bike for long, relaxing rides on your day off. It doesn't seem like it would be as practical as a regular bike for touring. Especially not in the case of the OP where he plans on doing many extended miles on gravel trails and very hilly/mountain terrain, going through lots of stop-and-go town traffic, along county highways with big semi-trucks and neanderthal-minded angry bike haters blasting past, etc. There are just so many situations where bike handling(safety), regular stop-and-go, and hill climbing outweigh a little high speed efficiency. And that's not even starting in on where to mount four panniers and a big battery.
Again, use case. For speed, a low slung faired Greenspeed trike might be the ticket. For road use in traffic, a more upright Easy Rider or Horizon might be a better choice. For long distances, a LWB Longbike might make more sense.
--bill von

donn   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 396
Joined: Aug 13 2018 10:30am
Location: Seattle

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by donn » Jun 03 2019 6:34pm

billvon wrote:
Jun 03 2019 4:03pm
For long distances, a LWB Longbike might make more sense.
Now you're talking! But that's what I'd say if we were talking about the Longbikes Slipstream out of the box. I have practically the same thing, an early Ryan Vanguard. Great bike. I put a big hub motor on the back ... and I took it off, and swapped it onto a Burley Limbo. Higher, has rear suspension. A lot like the bikes shown above, except I moved the steering to under the seat, like Vanguard/Slipstream.

Yes, that's a somewhat specialized ride. I ride it around downtown occasionally, but I don't know that I'd expect very good results offroad. That's asking a lot, with any kind of vehicle - a good stumpjumper, trailie, etc. is not going to be such a good cross country ride. But the rest of it - stop and go, county highways, bike haters - that's not a good enough reason to ride a long distance in misery. With a good recumbent and some practice, it isn't significantly different than an upright. And the motor helps, with handling and hill climbing. Where those two have been issues that put people off recumbents, they don't apply so much with motor assist.

Warren   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1326
Joined: Oct 05 2010 11:35am

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by Warren » Jun 03 2019 6:41pm

Chalo wrote:
Jun 03 2019 1:43pm
Since there are only a little over 2 billion bicycles in use worldwide, I guess you could say the idea was abandoned by everyone, and that those two billion plus people are fanatics.
99.99% of those 2 billion belong to poor people, not the first world rich you deal with every day. Do you honestly believe any of them would not trade their bike for a scooter in an instant?

The other 00.01% are owned by fanatics, like me.

markz   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7540
Joined: Jan 09 2014 11:38pm
Location: Alberta Canada

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by markz » Jun 03 2019 8:18pm

How many bicycles are in North America (which is full of first world nations)?

Of those bicycles, how many of those are considered their primary means of transportation?

I would say they would trade a bicycle for a scooter, of those that would trade, how many could afford the gas, repairs and insurance. Would they think logically about the costs involved and swap without thought, a certain percentage would and then when the repairs are needed they are back to walking around and hoping for a bicycle.


Warren wrote:
Jun 03 2019 6:41pm
99.99% of those 2 billion belong to poor people, not the first world rich you deal with every day. Do you honestly believe any of them would not trade their bike for a scooter in an instant?

The other 00.01% are owned by fanatics, like me.

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 13959
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by neptronix » Jun 03 2019 8:48pm

Electric Earth wrote:
Jun 03 2019 3:56pm
A recumbent seems to me like much more of a niche "fun" bike for long, relaxing rides on your day off. It doesn't seem like it would be as practical as a regular bike for touring. Especially not in the case of the OP where he plans on doing many extended miles on gravel trails and very hilly/mountain terrain, going through lots of stop-and-go town traffic, along county highways with big semi-trucks and neanderthal-minded angry bike haters blasting past, etc. There are just so many situations where bike handling(safety), regular stop-and-go, and hill climbing outweigh a little high speed efficiency. And that's not even starting in on where to mount four panniers and a big battery.
You should ride a semi recumbent or full recumbent some time.
I've done >3 hrs long rides on my upright bikes and always find my butt tiring out. No matter what seat. No matter what geometry..

Just consider this with an upright bike. Your weight is concentrated on your butt bones and your wrists. Every vibration, bump etc transmits force to those points.

Depending on your recumbent seat, at the worst, the weight is concentrated on your butt and partially on your thighs, and maybe ~10% of your weight sits on the seat back which is an improvement over an upright bike already.
At best, where you've got a really supportive seat that distributes your weight just like a car seat - butt, thighs, back.
..and yeah, there's pretty much zero weight sitting on your wrists, so if you have issues with your arm joints, no big deal.

And now you know why the greybeards like them. They're the most comfortable bike possible.

A recumbent or semi recumbent's ability to carry batteries is less of a problem due to the much lower amount of power they use. An old school long wheel base semi recumbent is best for this. They usually have huge spaces in the center of the frame.

If you look at people who have done touring around the world, you'll notice they're usually on semi recumbent bikes.

Something along the lines of the a sun ez1... nice big flexy steel frame and very generous battery/cargo space..
Image

Another touring advantage of the semi or full recumbent is how stable and forgiving the handling is when you have a mid to long size wheelbase.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 13959
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by neptronix » Jun 03 2019 8:49pm

Warren wrote:
Jun 03 2019 6:41pm
The other 00.01% are owned by fanatics, like me.
Yeah it's rather sad how few people prefer bikes, but i understand that getting from point A to point B faster, and with climate conditioning is pretty appealing.

I try to be a 00.01%er as often as the crazy mountain state weather will allow. ( ranges from -10f to +110f )
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 13959
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by neptronix » Jun 03 2019 9:12pm

Speaking of RVing, here's an interesting idea for ya..

Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

Warren   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1326
Joined: Oct 05 2010 11:35am

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by Warren » Jun 03 2019 9:54pm

markz wrote:
Jun 03 2019 8:18pm
I would say they would trade a bicycle for a scooter, of those that would trade, how many could afford the gas, repairs and insurance. Would they think logically about the costs involved and swap without thought, a certain percentage would and then when the repairs are needed they are back to walking around and hoping for a bicycle.
In many places in the world, getting a scooter or tuk tuk, is the path to making a living. A motorized vehicle allows you to increase your productivity by an order of magnitude, carrying goods or passengers. Motor vehicles worked for North America, and it works for other parts of the world just as well. Thats how we went from 83% of Americans working in agriculture in 1800 to less than 2%.

The problem is that the "externalities" are now killing us.

markz   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7540
Joined: Jan 09 2014 11:38pm
Location: Alberta Canada

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by markz » Jun 03 2019 10:55pm

Well the majority now are illegals working in agriculture, making for cheap labor which then under cuts other competitors trying to do business legally and building a better life for their workers who are legal citizens of our great countries.

What is harming humans is the dis regard of our government to crack down on polluters, to not spend willy nilly, to not allow lobbying, to not allow super pacs. Big biz owns our government, not the people! Rent hikes are climbing higher and higher, property tax had doubled and tripled over night for commercial businesses because our government is stupid. A business which paid $1500/m in taxes, now in some circumstances pays double or triple that. Our downtown core is empty. In the oil patch, abandoned wells are all too common, because our government is stupid and not require a deposit. Like a regular business wanting to take money upfront for work from home owners, needs to pay stupidfucks a $50k depost. But big business can slide and pollute our great lands, leaving our hard working farmers on the hook.

However this is getting waaaaay off topic. What needs to happen is affordable housing, and I believe the OP is on the right track. Living off the land, as it comes, traveling, seeing the sights, spending consumer goods tax in various places, spreading it out. No need to pay rent, buy a big travel trailer or coach, no no a solid, reliable bicycle for touring with storage for shelter, clothing, food, water. I joke all the time to dog walkers that the dogs poo is actually good fertilizer, so no need for humans to carry baggies for #2.
Warren wrote:
Jun 03 2019 9:54pm
Thats how we went from 83% of Americans working in agriculture in 1800 to less than 2%.

The problem is that the "externalities" are now killing us.

User avatar
Chalo   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7961
Joined: Apr 29 2009 11:29pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by Chalo » Jun 03 2019 11:44pm

Warren wrote:
Jun 03 2019 6:41pm
Chalo wrote:
Jun 03 2019 1:43pm
Since there are only a little over 2 billion bicycles in use worldwide, I guess you could say the idea was abandoned by everyone, and that those two billion plus people are fanatics.
99.99% of those 2 billion belong to poor people, not the first world rich you deal with every day. Do you honestly believe any of them would not trade their bike for a scooter in an instant?

The other 00.01% are owned by fanatics, like me.
Do tell.

This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

Ford Prefect   1 W

1 W
Posts: 55
Joined: Jan 10 2019 7:41am
Location: Wuppertal, EU

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by Ford Prefect » Jun 04 2019 12:39am

I do believe your numbers are a little off.
0.01% of 2bil (2,000,000,000) is 200k.
200k people on the world who would not trade in their bike for a motorized vehicle for transportation?

I think even the 2bil is not enough. You are saying that AT LEAST 5bil people do not own a bike. And that is considering of the 2bil people everyone owns only one.

Or did I mess up all the zeros in the billion of the English language?
The fundamental laws of thermodynamics will place fixed limits on technological innovation and human advancement.

How would you react if I said that I'm not from Guildford after all, but from a small planet somewhere in the vicinity of Betelgeuse?

User avatar
kauaicycler   10 W

10 W
Posts: 70
Joined: May 18 2019 1:37pm
Location: Cocoa, FL
Contact:

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by kauaicycler » Jun 04 2019 8:04am

I love this recumbent debate! I’m going to have to figure out how to test drive one before I can decide if it’s right for me. The only place I can find online that rents bikes near me doesn’t rent recumbents. How do I get started with recumbents?

User avatar
dogman dan   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 34981
Joined: May 17 2008 12:53pm
Location: Las Cruces New Mexico USA

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by dogman dan » Jun 04 2019 9:24am

I got a semi bent real cheap at the annual bike swap in my town. You might look for something like that, as well as your secondhand stores. Rich people that got too old tend to donate to them, the pet sanctuary store, Goodwill, etc. The hunt is half the fun. craiglist too, but people want what they paid years ago on CL.
And then there is the most fun way, get a wire feed welder and build a semi bent. That semi bent I got was what we used to plan AW's big trike. We copied the frame in new steel.

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 13959
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by neptronix » Jun 04 2019 10:09am

kauaicycler wrote:
Jun 04 2019 8:04am
I love this recumbent debate! I’m going to have to figure out how to test drive one before I can decide if it’s right for me. The only place I can find online that rents bikes near me doesn’t rent recumbents. How do I get started with recumbents?
Test driving one might be hard, as stores that go so far as to even carry them are pretty rare, but i'd seek out a shop in your state anyway.

I bought mine on eBay with a hunch that i would like it. I also needed a 20 inch wheel because i needed to fit a motorcycle tire to deal with the extreme amount of tire puncturing goatheads in my area.

I explain my choice for switching from upright bikes to semi recumbents in detail in this video if you have a moment to watch.

Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

User avatar
Chalo   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7961
Joined: Apr 29 2009 11:29pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by Chalo » Jun 04 2019 2:46pm

neptronix wrote:
Jun 04 2019 10:09am
I also needed a 20 inch wheel because i needed to fit a motorcycle tire to deal with the extreme amount of tire puncturing goatheads in my area.
For what it's worth:
https://www.bandenleader.be/motor-band/ ... 22--774949

There are not many moto tires in that size, though.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 13959
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: Poor Man's RV

Post by neptronix » Jun 04 2019 2:52pm

Chalo wrote:
Jun 04 2019 2:46pm
For what it's worth:
https://www.bandenleader.be/motor-band/ ... 22--774949

There are not many moto tires in that size, though.
Well, that's interesting. I spent over a year trying to find something like that, even went and harassed every tire vendor at interbike. Made around a hundred phone calls, and a dozen forum posts. No luck. And there it is, right after i switched wheel sizes. :lol:

Oh well. I am satisfied with my choice to go with 20 inch wheels anyway because of the increased power density and efficiency factor with a hub ( vs a 26" wheel )
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

Post Reply