Using EV Chargers

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 3:30pm

But that is OK
I am methods
I can not be beaten down by anyone, anywhere, for long

Now...
Whether or not these chips will work - I do not know

It is the right chip set
I wont have to do BGA soldering
I can easily hack the PCB

I must have these
They come from China...

Devoting all energy to finding these now

-methods
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methods   10 GW

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 3:39pm

Request for Quote sent out.

When requesting quote, I suggest doing the following:

* basic hello and I hope you are doing well

* keep it super short and simple - think bad translation

* Ask for the price shipped

I asked for 10pcs shipped express
&
I asked for 100pcs shipped cheapest

From that I expect a price and lead time
I provided payment methods - Bank Transfer, Paypal, etc... be ready to do business... Quotes are good for about a day or three.

I am ready to buy 10pcs NOW shipped FAST
I will evaluate those
We will see if they work

If they work - I buy 100pcs Shipped SLOW
The first 10pcs get eaten up to R&D
This golden unit... that golden unit

The next 100pcs are used to develop reliability
They are sold assembled into other things near cost
They are intended only for the design to mature and for the information to spread

... :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame:

No haters allowed

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 3:43pm

As an engineer...
Sometimes young guys ask me how to get rolling

They want to know how I get all juiced up
They are not excited about anything

... First I tell them to stop taking the prescription drugs :lol:

Later I explain that I have been upset since I was 3yo

I just have a fire burning in me
I have to set super clear boundaries with people... cuz... I have seen the worst that people can offer.

My birth father will claim otherwise
He will claim that many had it worse
I am sure he is correct -

But that is fallacy

I feel the way I feel
I am a bad-ass engineer
I channel my wicked energy into solving problems which others have not yet solved

Some easy problems
Some hard problems
Usually it is just GETTING IT FRUCKING DONE

Right?

Watch this

:lowbatt: :bolt:

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 3:48pm

Check these prices out - must be pesos
https://www.yoycart.com/Product/556908076905/

mmm... MUCH more likely to buy from a website like this one...
https://uk.pi-supply.com/products/lx200 ... -interface

$40 bucks eh?
Out of stock... lets go investigate that website

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 3:51pm

OMFG...
I am posting pornography on ES. . .

This should be illegal yes?

.
.
DropBeat.png
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methods   10 GW

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 4:01pm

Refined Key Word List

(See how I am solving this like a compiler would?)

LX200V30
WisPLC Pro Power Line Development Board

BarSterdz say they have it...
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/LX200V3 ... 29441.html

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/ ... rQYds8sMJg

HOme run!!!!!

... Methods is rounding third base...

Brown juice pouring out of his pants leg... running has fast as he frugging can... ball is flying in from left field... coming right for the back of my head... I aint looking back... catcher better get the hell out of my way... 200lbs of pissed off whiteboy COMMING THRU

https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sh ... 17_Web.pdf

I dont even hesitate
If I see 6pcs of that sitting at Digikey... I buy 5 before I even LOOK to see what else they have

I OWN these

Ok... These are my PROPERTY now
and I can return them if they are not good.. but I have paid
They are mine
DropBeat.png
DropBeat.png (47.65 KiB) Viewed 372 times
THAT is a race to the finish line
I probably just made a million dollars

Laugh all you want
I left one in the cart for you

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 4:11pm

Nah...
Nah dog...
I have heard enough yapping
DropBeat.png
DropBeat.png (20.07 KiB) Viewed 371 times
I have left one of everything in the bin
Took them

... They will be at my shop.
If anyone wants to play with me... PayPal me what I paid for them + Digikey to me + Me to you and they are yours.



OK..
I think I now own all of the available hardware on the planet

My hope is that ...
Whether this shit works or not...
That Digikey re-orders.

Some rotten little robot at Digikey right now is figuring...
how long did this sit on the shelf..
How much did we make off it
How many will we sell...
Who bought it...

Well...
Lucky for you I am top tier at Digikey so they will be like "OMG - methods ordered it? ChuckNoris!(( Order more quick!!)

L O L

That his how a revolution gets started
You take the money out of your pocket
You take a full day off of work
You fight and you fight and you fight

You dont go look at what any body else did... those haters may say it does not work... RIGHT?
You gamble
You gamble to WIN

You lose a few
You win a few
You fight and you fight and you fight

Tired of these sorry ass busters :wink:

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by bigmoose » Jun 07 2019 5:59pm

These are the threads I wait to savor!

However, wish it didn't say "has 128 bit AES encryption" ... hope they didn't encrypt the data stream...
"Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly. Leave the rest to God..." all the best, Dave

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 07 2019 6:35pm

Hey Moose

I have worked "around" these chips for a couple years now. I did not bother to dig into minutia.. . but they claim compatibility as far as I can tell... and... I know how to line up the hardware around them :bolt: . .. . . I have a unit test to run them against -

so

We will see :D

.... I just invited another enthusiast to join us. We will see if that individual is into raising hell.

Applications:

* Mobile 50KW BBQ that works anywhere there is EV Fast Charging
* Mobile Ebike Charger that is guaranteed to destroy the bicycle
* Mobile Zero Motorcycle Charger (if they dont get off their butts...)

I am going to have a dead simple profile selection tool.
Runs on an Android Phone via Bluetooth
Point and click

The target purpose for this is of course Cycle Testing. . . So... run a profile, run a profile, run a profile... forever. Upload data to a server while you do so. Allow remote control from server if authenticated.

Etc

... You know... Just playing "Remote Control 1/2MW Power Supplies" :mrgreen:

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 17 2019 6:27pm

I do projects in 1 of 2 ways

1) NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW!!!!!!!

2) End of the priority queue


I am guessing the parts landed at my Mail Drop.

When I roll over there, and I rig stuff up, I suspect that I will be missing this.
ApparentlyIforgotThis.png
We will see.

This is unpaid work so I am in no rush.


...
Digikey got back that the Demo boards were miss-print and out of stock. I have raw boards coming. . . and no doubt they will be missing some this or that to work out of the box. We will see. "Works right out of the box" is a relative term. .... Right?

For me
If I dont have to do a 100x100 BGA drop then ... it works.

For some other folks
If I dont write them a 50 page Shop Manual... it does not work.

Pretty much disappointed with humans again.
Quick reminder humans... The Primary Objective is to... GO TO OUTER-SPACE.

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by fechter » Jun 17 2019 7:54pm

I want to see the 50kw barbecue. :twisted:
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 18 2019 8:50am

I am glad you inquired fecther. . .


We had collected all of the materials necessary for a proper demonstration of power :bigthumb:
.
.
1558825135178572.jpg
IMG_20190526_110757_compress89.jpg
IMG_20190526_110807_compress60.jpg

But we made the biggest and most common nOoB mistake of all . . . We asked for permission
. . .

Of course, even tho nobody else was properly demonstrating, the answer was NO
.
.
1556811097045731.jpg
1556811097249891.jpg
1556811097498109.jpg

I asked twice... as I am known to do.
I explained that I am a Frucking Squared Away Expert. . .

I even made rational arguments, proof of abstract thinking, similar to these:
(Just in case there was any question of my pedigree)
.
.
1556811095915227.jpg
1556811095915227.jpg (57.49 KiB) Viewed 216 times
1556811096498226.jpg
1556811096808726.jpg
But the answer I got
When I tried to hook up the 50KW Safety-BBQ (that only runs for like 30mS btw...)
Was "NO, I am in charge, go do what I told you to do"

So....

Now I am going to go hook up the 50KW Safety-BBQ someplace else. :kff:

Nobody stands in the way of methods hooking up the 50KW Safety BBQ
(50KWSBBQ)

Safety First!

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 18 2019 9:20am

So...
That particular BBQ was only intended to run for less than 100mS

S P E C I A L
B B Q
:twisted:

But if we are going to roast some franks and such. . .
BTU.png
BTU.png (50.76 KiB) Viewed 216 times
Er...
Looks to be around 150,000 BTW/hr....

Carry the 3
Divide by 2.14

Assuming 20% inefficiency... so 30,000 BTU/hr needs to be blown away from our BBQ source (including margin)
As margin builds reliability
As nobody designs anything that lasts without margin. . .
.
.
AboutThisMuch.png
.
.
So I figure we need about that much chiller in the transportainer if we want it to work properly as a 50KW Safety BBQ Provisioning Station. . .

Move the equation around
Create 3 equation to solve for 3 variable. . .
.
.
Outcome.png
.
.
Yep
Math checks out

In order to create an Electric EQU of the standard BBQ seen above (which is a VERY powerful BBQ btw... Boil a pig in that...) then we will require about $3,000 worth of Air Conditioner, a $750 transport container, access to 480 mains on a 100A circuit, and of course... A BBQ Wall Wart.

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 18 2019 9:29am

Ah...
Feels good to be working for SE again.

I am actually on the clock right now :wink:

I... Probably... should be checking my traps and such. . .
But I learned a lot over the last 2 years.

...
...
...

Good things come from slowing down and thinking about what the goals are for what you are doing.
Defining Metrics, for gauging Progress, toward Success

...

So
In this case we have defined Success as "50KW Safety BBQ"

We will "Roast Franks and Such"
On this Qualified and Calibrated Safety BBQ.

... In order for this Safety BBQ to work properly we will need to be able to Navigate Safety Interlocks...

Like CCS1, CCS2, CHAdeMO, Tesla, and Other

These Safety Interlocks (because if they are not for safety then WHAT are they for? Billing? Pfffttt...) communicate in one of three ways as far as I can tell.

(1) Standard CAN in 1Mb, 500Kb, 250Kb
(2) Jenkem Chip (so comms over power)
(3) Other

. . .

We are to assume that the Safety BBQ Power Providing Machines will be located in public spaces here and there.
We assume they are all dialed in with cooling and a power source
We assume their connector mechanics are in compliance

We attach
We play our little diddy. . . "GIMME FIDDY BUX YO!"...

So. . .
The EV Handshake happens...

Then the 50KW Safety BBQ starts running...

Yes?

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 18 2019 9:34am

Now
The Secret Handshake

... I must go out and search the internet far and wide to see if it is public information.

So far...
Rat bastards...
Have, to some degree, kept the information "Available but not Public"

... Example being that you can B U Y the CHAdeMO spec....
... Example being that you can B U Y the JenKem spec....

So technically those are not Public Information

Or... so it may seem.

...
.......
............

In 2019 All Things are public.
You just have to look around

Maybe a PhD Thesis
Maybe a Government Contractor Article
Maybe a DIY site. . .

The information is there.
It just has to be massaged

Information is like bacon

At first it is not so useful for breakfast because it is raw and riddled with globs of fat. If you take that information and cook it down . . . it becomes "breakfast ready"

... Speaking of Breakfast

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 18 2019 9:53am

So lately I have been trying to express to young Engineers how important Reverse Engineering is.

We are onto a new-ish subject. . . we call it "EV"
Not all that new really :roll:
Same problems in a new wrapper - right?

. . .

There are many places to look for clues.
Big Industry like mining
Big Industry like Aerospace
Big Industry like Automotive

. . .

Take this for example:
Understanding_BTU.png
The standard and extremely ubiquitous,"Automotive AC"

Compact
Value Engineered
Simple to Operate
Well documented

Compact
Value Engineered
Simple to Operate
Well documented

Compact. . . :arrow:

hmmmm................................................

.
.
IMG_20190525_092030_compress99.jpg
If our previous calculations were correct and we need 150,000 BTU/hr to come into the ballpark of 50KW. . .

And if it is true that a standard Automotive Heat Exchange System can run 60,000 BTU with extreme air flow. . .

Sure looks to me like we are ball-parking in on something
Eh?

.
.
Airflow is cheap

OH
That reminds me . .. . :bolt: :lowbatt: :bolt: :bolt:

I have a bunch of pictures from a teardown to show
Just a second . . . .

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 18 2019 10:16am

Procedure:

*Take pictures with Android phone (5MB each)
*Compress them (Please!)
*Upload to Google Drive
*Download to Local Machine
*Upload to Endless-Sphere (never link-thru please. . . )

(waiting for this process. . . )

An aside while we wait:

Engineers
Mechanical Engineers
Electrical Engineers
Software Engineers
(There are others)

All engineers suffer from some blind spot or another
I have found that the following is true

Mechanical Engineers - Suffer from thinking that a Mechanical Envelope is a Constant, and not a Variable.
Software Engineers - Suffer from thinking that hardware is mutable, when it is immutable for the most part.

Of course. . . Tooling costs money...
That is why you add margin to a Mechanical Envelope in the form of Space Claims early in design. To achieve this you require full quorum - all stakeholders. Failure to make space claims early can lead to a $500 mechanism costing $5,000 because you end up having to stuff 10lbs of shit in a 5lbs space.

Of course. . . Hardware is flawed
That is why you spend a great deal of money on Test and QC. This is why you must be uber diligent and use as much COTS as possible. Buying a Cell Phone for $200. . . is an illusion. That is subsidized goods. In some way, at some level, that is not reality. You can not build a cell phone for $200. Not even for $2,000. . .

Anyway - Pics downloaded

The topic is Tear-downs

156086981474169.jpg
156086981474169.jpg (69.89 KiB) Viewed 211 times
.
.
When you are doing a tear-down the details are extremely important
You have to recognize all the symbols, all the clues
.
.
156086981526629.jpg
.
.
In these tiny clues. . . are the answers you seek.
All of them
.
.
156086981570019.jpg
.
.
It can be overwhelming of course.
Right. . .???

So before we go trying to extract solid gold ore from a strip-mining site...
So before we try and scrape the thinnest film of sweat cream. . .

We must first have our fundamentals down.
Right?

Like...
How to run a blade
How to run a screw driver
How to put all the fasteners in bins by where they came from

How to spot a #1, #2, #3 crosshead
How to get past a security torx
How to not get electrocuted

How to . . . STAY ORGANIZED so as to be able to PUT BACK TOGETHER what it is that you TOOK APART
Yes?
.
.
1560869819939748.jpg
Ah...
So that is what we are doing. . .

Schindler Engineering Training Day

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 18 2019 10:34am

mm m m m..... pics :wink:
156086981603098.jpg
So I will jump around a bit.
All temperatures are in F for the moment but they will be going over to C
.
.
156086981920022.jpg
As we tear into something we are ESPECIALLY interested in aging.
Accelerated aging
So. . . Oxidation
So. . . how do the fasteners look?

How do the aluminum surfaces look?
.
.
1560869811500294.jpg
I learn a lot by taking apart old stuff.

You will find . . . that the reality you live in. . . is driven not by SAFETY but by ECONOMICS

Old stuff is good stuff
Just ask uncle methods
.
.
1560869816468287.jpg
So chillers come in different flavors.
You have to consider the temperature ranges they are shooting out. . . right?

Is it a Freezer?
Is it a Deep Freezer?
Is it a Human Chiller?

So...
This works out to the temperature of the R12 or R22 or R134a that is returning to the compressor

A Deep Freeze is going to have sub-zero coolant coming back.
A Human Chililer is going to have much warmer coolant coming back.
You must adjust for this, and that is not an exercise I have done yet

I can sweat copper and have my copper sweating kit here.
I can find a bearded fellow with an R22 tank to recover, and then replenish my coolant
I can
Tear into
This AC Unit
(just in the same way I can poke wires into the connector of a nuke emulator)
.
.
1560869817041407.jpg
Gotta go do human stuff
Will return

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 19 2019 9:35am

Of course officially, this Chiller is for a "Cold Water Reef Tank".

Even by late afternoon, in fairly still water, half way down the harbor:
.
.
1560869820157732.jpg
.
.
.
You can see that the water temp around here is still 60F.
I expect to see a range from about 52F to 58F
Tidepools can get much warmer, so Anemone, hermit, etc... can tolerate much warmer temps.
.
.
1560869820375574.jpg
.
.
So if anybody asks,
We are tearing down this chiller to confirm that the refrigerant levels are good. We are interested to see if the delta across the compressor is still within spec. We are taking a look at the corrosion level around the fan and electronics... so... Is the starting cap about to go? Is the fan about to grind to a halt? Is the compressor ringing?
.
.

If memory serves you judge AC by pressure on the inlet side and pressure on the outlet side. Obviously you slowly lose a little refrigerant over time due to bad seals and such (I would imagine - maybe not).

Whatever seal is in the pump... has to wear... so...

Is this 1/2hp chiller performing or under performing?

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 19 2019 9:53am

Next batch of pics are loading into Google Drive

Theory of Operation

You may recall a trip SE took back around 2013.
We visited a mine in Owens Valley.
.
.
OV1.png
(I know people who were forced into camps like this during WWII. They were tattooed, even as children. The weather is H A R S H)
.
.

This (the mine we are about to talk about) was one of the first places to have an Ice Plant. Back then they used Ammonia as a refrigerant

. . .

Before we go into how Refrigerant works in a chiller, lets take a second to look a little closer at the picture I posted above.
.
.
.
OV2.png
OV2.png (138.05 KiB) Viewed 131 times
Now,
Do you understand that 120,000 Americans were captured and forced into concentration camps in HORRIFICALLY frocked climates just a generation ago?

I am not talking about sleeping on the porch in California. I am talking about the Valley next to Death Valley.

These people (who I know, personally, as in I have seen the ink on their wrists with my own eyes and heard their stories) were pulled from their homes. If they were lucky they knew someone who could hold some of their belongings. If they were unlucky they lost everything.

Kids
Men women and children

Taken to shacks in the worst environments
Tattooed with ink against their will
Kept there for 2 years.

... Fast Forward ...

Lets pretend we put a Coward in charge of the country.
Lets pretend that 2001 was 18 years ago but that EVERYBODY is still a Terror Suspect.
Lets pretend. . .
That the people in charge. . .
Are for the most part UNTOUCHABLE and that they think this is a frocking GAME.

Lets pretend. . .
That nobody is communicating very well

How well do you think the Armed Forces communicate with the Business Tyrants communicate with the Community Leaders?
Not well.

....

Know your history
Know the history of your country
This is the only way to avoid R E P E A T I N G ..... Mistakes.

(oh......)

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 19 2019 9:58am

Ah,
Here are the pics
TD001.png
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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 19 2019 10:36am

Meh...
Drive is taking forever to Zip and Download my data.

Heat Exchange Theory

1) Take a liquid gas like Amonia

Any liquid can be heated to the point where it turns to gas
Any liquid, in enough vacuum, will evaporate into gas
Any phase change, so transition from liquid to gas, will have associated with it a big temperature change

P*V = n*r*T

Pressure x Volume ~= Temperature
Universal Gas Law

So.. does Amonia evaporate?

YES
This is why you use it to clean windows
Windex is Amonia

SO
Amonia is actually a gas that we trap as a liquid.

Example
You can capture Nitrogen Gas as a liquid and it will sit... you can pour it...

AND
We know that you can not really "Compress" liquids
RIGHT?
You compress Gasses and they convert to Liquids

SO
We correct the first statement to say that we "Compress Gas"
.
.
.
1560955185749545.jpg
2) The Compressor increases the pressure and temperature of this gas by ... squishing it.

PV=T
P goes up, because we are squishing it
T goes up

We get this gas SUPER HOT
Much hotter than it was coming into the pump

We get this gas all compressed and angry... all the way until it is a liquid
(and this is how we choose an appropriate GAS (not liquid) for an AC Compressor)

... Same gas
Just hot and compressed now
So... Much more of it in the same volume
Saturated

When the gas is changed into a liquid it gets H O T
.
.
.
.

3) We then run this piping hot gas thru a "Heat Exchanger" which is nothing more than a bunch of copper pipes winding back and forth with a bunch of Aluminum fins... so a high surface area... with a Fan blowing air by... air which is much cooler than the gas which has been compressed into a liquid
1560955178729836.jpg
.
.
.




So the black tower in the pics is a "Compressor"
It is a pump
It converts gas to liquid
It makes this liquid HOT and under Pressure

The bottom of the compressor is where the gas comes in
1560955185749545.jpg
Right where my finger is pointing.

... Some kind of mechanics happen inside of the Japanese High Reliability Pump

Out the top... comes angry hot liquid... unstable stuff...

it goes UP, OVER, DOWN, OVER, UP, and into the TOP of the radiator.
It then cycles thru the radiator
Top to bottom
Running around and around and around


4) When the compressed gas which is now a hot liquid exits the BOTTOM of the heat exchanger it is now MUCH COOLER.

All that blowing air over the fins has taken heat from our angry compressed gas
We have literally gone into the formula and MUCKED AROUND

PV=T

So... we forced T to drop
We held V, Volume, Constant
I am guessing P, remains constant, because behind us the pump is still pushing, pushing, pushing

If that is the case...
We now have an imbalance yes?

Obvoiusly P and V can not remain constant while T drops
So... Eh... I guess there is more to learn there

All I can tell you is that a bunch of heat has been blown off of our angry liquid.
This liquid which wants to return to equalibrium

(noodling here... noodling here... All things in life rest at equilibrium... only fools assume things taken out out equilibrium will rest easy*)

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 20 2019 5:03pm

1561067930420424.jpg
-methods

P.S. my credit card, my IP to do with as I please.
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 20 2019 9:41pm

Google: QCA7005 vs QCA7420

Reference: QCA7005
From: https://www.qualcomm.com/sites/ember/fi ... l_2015.pdf

Reference: QCA7420
From: https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/part ... endor=1910

Reference: Embedded Software
Where both chip implementations are supported by the same interface
https://github.com/qca/open-plc-utils/b ... /chipset.c

Reference: 690 pages of specification for stuff that is far outside of what we need
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HomePlug# ... _Green_PHY


-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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methods   10 GW

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Joined: Aug 08 2008 12:08pm
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Re: Using EV Chargers

Post by methods » Jun 20 2019 9:49pm

Task:

Without spending 8hrs of my life...

I need to map out the QCA7000 chip family
I need to understand backward compatibility

...
QCA7000 variants and the QCA7005 will be compatible
Base model, Enhanced Temperature, then Additional screening

Reference: Modules for sale spanning 7000 thru 7500
https://smartcharging.in-tech.com/powerline-modules/

NOTE:
Researching this subject from Automotive perspective has been ... slim pickings. Doing the same research from X10 perspective (comms over home AC mains) ... TONS of data. The Automotive phy aspect is an extension tho, so I need to find out how much baseline and how much extension I need to implement. Hopefully VERY LITTLE to get 50KWSBBQ running.

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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