MJSfoto1956
10 kW
Please disregard.
PV NextGen FOC 100-180v 36kw max - $799
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MJSfoto1956
10 kW
coolbobjoe said:
Hard to disagree with that statement -- OTOH, the majority of controllers on the market are lacking in waterproofing, especially with regard to the connectors. As such, one of my first "customizations" was to waterproof the whole bunch of connectors as a whole using some pretty straightforward, tried-and-true methods. Here's what I came up with:
And this is what the PowerVelocity controller looks like mounted on my bike:
coolbobjoe
1 W
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- Jul 6, 2017
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- 62
MJSfoto1956 said:
I really love this... I kinda wanna do this then mount each boot slightly off a 90 angle so at speed they would be equally "in the windstream." One of my main concerns now is at over 70+mph if there is moisture that it will be forced into cavities unless properly vented into the surrounding slipstream via vacuum. +1 for vacuum proofing
ElectricGod
10 MW
Very few controllers are water proofed. If that's something you really want then be sure to take the time to do it yourself.
Conformal is a great starting place. Coat the entire board top and bottom over all the small components with it. Anything getting past the silicon seals will still have to penetrate the conformal before it can cause issues. A properly coated board ought to run under water (short term) just fine.
A little silicon caulk around the edges of the shell and in and around the wire ingress area will help a lot too.
This is NOT in any way a design flaw of PV products or any body elses controllers. Very rarely do I see any EV that has water proofed electronics and wiring. I do this myself if it's needed.
BTW...for a number of years, I worked as an installer for cell towers. We got a "new" weatherproof box that was waterproof and air tight. They were a nightmare. In the day, the box would warm up and expel extra air pressure. At night the box would cool down and suck in air. This slooow progression of cooling and heating air would pull in small amounts of moisture into the weatherproof boxes. After a while we started seeing electronics failures. Up the towers I'd go, open the box and they would be dripping with water inside a SEALED up box. What was really needed is a weep hole at the lowest point in the box. This allowed any condensation inside the box to drip out the hole. AKA...water proof is for use under water. For land use, you really want a weep hole in the shell so water can seep out with expansion and contraction of the air inside. The more extreme the hot and cold cycles are the more quickly moisture builds up inside the box. A motor controller will do the same process as those tower boxes I was installing, just faster and more often than every 12 hours.
Conformal is a great starting place. Coat the entire board top and bottom over all the small components with it. Anything getting past the silicon seals will still have to penetrate the conformal before it can cause issues. A properly coated board ought to run under water (short term) just fine.
A little silicon caulk around the edges of the shell and in and around the wire ingress area will help a lot too.
This is NOT in any way a design flaw of PV products or any body elses controllers. Very rarely do I see any EV that has water proofed electronics and wiring. I do this myself if it's needed.
BTW...for a number of years, I worked as an installer for cell towers. We got a "new" weatherproof box that was waterproof and air tight. They were a nightmare. In the day, the box would warm up and expel extra air pressure. At night the box would cool down and suck in air. This slooow progression of cooling and heating air would pull in small amounts of moisture into the weatherproof boxes. After a while we started seeing electronics failures. Up the towers I'd go, open the box and they would be dripping with water inside a SEALED up box. What was really needed is a weep hole at the lowest point in the box. This allowed any condensation inside the box to drip out the hole. AKA...water proof is for use under water. For land use, you really want a weep hole in the shell so water can seep out with expansion and contraction of the air inside. The more extreme the hot and cold cycles are the more quickly moisture builds up inside the box. A motor controller will do the same process as those tower boxes I was installing, just faster and more often than every 12 hours.
coolbobjoe
1 W
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- Jul 6, 2017
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ElectricGod said:
There's a difference between having gaskets all around and forgetting one of the end cap gaskets before controller shipment that irks me. You got half it right...
larsb
1 MW
ElectricGod said:
*offtopic blabber continued by EG*
you did nothing for PV? Not employed? so just don't speak for them in their sales thread
ElectricGod said:
I don't know from which source you have this information but it cannot be from real world. You should overthink if the words "nothing" and "100% working" can be used here, or for any kind of devices because there is always a small rest risk for failure and even if it is less than 0.1%, it is not 100% working :wink:
My story:
I had a problem with two BT modules which both did not work on arrival. It turned out that there was a problem with the software after describing the issues and on top of that the description of the throttle connector was reversed. This i was told later after i spent many hours with trying to make them work (using differnet phones, wiring and rewiring everything etc).
I was so angry that i sent them both back and asking for a Paypal refund (which i got without any hassle).
Another issue i had with two 12F controllers because non-genuine FET's had been used (much higher Rds-on was one issue).
One gave up when it was spinning at no load and the other at 1000W (on the road a few miles a way from home it shorted two phases on a hub motor -> yeah great i cannot even shove the bike home :lol:
I learned somthing which is buy cheap buy twice, and that good and long lasting products need high quality parts, which is my piece of advice to the developer of this new gerneration of controllers.
ElectricGod
10 MW
madin88 said:
I'd call .1% splitting hairs! Yes...technically you are right, but geez...that's one chance in 1000! Still...VERY good odds that no one will have a problem and that 1:1000 chances are for each and every controller. Good luck getting those odds on just about anything that's fairly complex and can handle 100+ amps!!!
My information is real world...he and I have had this discussion many times. So essentially what you are saying is we are lying. You have to know you have no proof of that! And I emphatically have stated the opposite many times.
In your case, you bought those controllers how long ago? OH yes...that's right...NOT recently at all. So your opinion is based on OLD information and NOT on current practices. I do agree with you that early on after the initial release of the PV product line that there were some cases of quality issues. You have discussed this many times, but it is not the case anymore. IF it happens at all anymore, it's very rare and I still say that 100% of product that leaves Vadym gets bench tested first! That's just how it's been done for a long time now.
Mosfets...again...early on...controllers came to Vadym complete from China. What the Chinese did or if they used legit mosfets is NOT knowable. Later on, that changed and controllers were purchased without mosfets and a couple other parts. Instead legit parts were purchased in the USA from known sources like Digikey or Arrow. Even then, specific mosfet models have changed several times. For example originally they all came with IRFP4110's in them. Later this was changed to AOT290's and now they use a digichips mosfet. ALL of this was done with the goal of reducing mosfet failures and variance.
Again...your information is OLD and not based on current practices!
I can emphatically say that in my own testing of mosfets that I have seen legit mosfets purchased from known sources NOT meet factory specs. It happens more than you think! So then assuming that becasue a mosfet doesn't meet specs does NOT imply that it is a fake...just that it doesn't meet specs! Personally I test every mosfet before it gets placed in a controller. I'm not sure what level of testing Vadym does before he populates a controller with mosfets. He's NOT an idiot so I'm fairly sure it's sufficient to weed out bad components as much as is reasonably possible.
Your telemetry modules are how old? I have mentioned previously that early on BT was not overly great and that over time it got to be a LOT better. Now it's down right reliable. You neglect to EVER post dates of purchase. I'm going to say that since I've seen your anti-PV rant for a very long time now that these modules were also purchased a very long time ago. AKA...more OLD opinions NOT based in current time frames or practices and based on OLD information! Please try to keep up!
Your perspective is NOT based in current realities or current practices in any way! You want to rant about PV quality, but then can't see that EVERY company out there HAS to work on quality! Samsung products back in the late 1980's was steaming piles of crap. I know because I was repairing their horribly BAD designs back then! Look at Samsung today...the world thinks they make top notch electronics now. Seagate makes some of the best hard drives there is, BUT in the late 1980's and early 90's their hard drives failed probably 40% of the time within the first 6 months! ALL manufactures figure out how to make things better or they go out of business. PowerVelocity is no different! Lessons were learned, product got a LOT better!
The new controller designs will incorporate what was learned from the Chinese sinusoidal controllers and they won't be "cheap" like you claim. What no one but a very few people know is that the design of these new controllers has been tested and revised a couple of times now. Probably the current version won't be the last either. Vadym is not an idiot! He won't let this new design get to the world until it's ready. And then, just like current practices for the current controllers and modules, 100% of them will get tested before they ship.
That's how things are done now...period! Your information is OLD news! Feel free to let your dated opinions and experiences pass into history! They are no longer relevant.
larsb
1 MW
This is where Powervelocity should go in and explain the controls they introduced to get better quality assurance without the noise created by EG. I still think that PV might have a good product but it's hard to see through the blabber by their non-official spokespersoncurrent state of thread programming:
10 EG: they are checked 100%
20 add 1 member that can prove issues that would be found with 100% checks
30 EG:yes there were issues, i take everything back about the 100% checks but you're idiots and they were still only user issues
40 Powervelocity silence
50 goto 10
Let's see how long we can continue the loop :thumb:
ElectricGod said:
What about the fact that Powervelocity did agree to take over the costs for 24pcs AOT290 FET's at first because he was aware of the issues that they suddenly could fail, but after i bought them from Digikey for ~3$ each (above 80USD total) i got as answer that i bought them way to expensive and he will not cover costs because he buys them for 1/10 of what i paid (~0.30$ ea).
You only can get them somewhere from china that cheap, but not from known sources even if you buy thousands of them.
district9prawn
1 kW
Wow 30 cents is really cheap if genuine. Even if you buy thousands from LCSC you are still looking at over $2 USD a piece.
MJSfoto1956
10 kW
madin88 said:
If your story is more than two years old, then you are being disingenuous by (deliberately) not mentioning that fact. I think that your constant harping on an earlier experience (which will likely be interpreted as a recent experience by anyone not familiar with your history) is what is getting under ElectricGod's skin -- and perhaps for good reason.
M
It is exactly one year ago when i bought the modules in May-June 2018 if that helps you to decide if it is meaningful or not :wink:MJSfoto1956 said:
No wonder the discussion turned this route if someone makes statements like "100% tested before shipping" in connection with "user issues" which sounds like problems are only caused by owners themself if there appear any.
Powervelocity.com
100 kW
Controllers and BT modules are bench tested before shipping. It makes sense to do that because it's costly to deal even with simple problems once a controller left the warehouse. That's as simple as that. This is not to say that this rules out any possible problems down the road but it reduces them. We attempt to resolve any issues in good faith though.
Every situation is different. Even things like climate can be factor as we figured out. In California, for example, we don't really need to seal controllers (I purposefully not do that on 24Fs) and I can still occasionally water hose my bike or ride in heavy rain without consequence. Can be a different situation in extreme climates. But if a controller requires that level of weather proofing, a tube of silicon and 5 minute of your time will do the magic.
Every situation is different. Even things like climate can be factor as we figured out. In California, for example, we don't really need to seal controllers (I purposefully not do that on 24Fs) and I can still occasionally water hose my bike or ride in heavy rain without consequence. Can be a different situation in extreme climates. But if a controller requires that level of weather proofing, a tube of silicon and 5 minute of your time will do the magic.
ElectricGod
10 MW
madin88 said:
Yup...still stand by that too...and you saw Vadyms response too...this is how it's been done for a good while now. Your ranting about something that's old information. A year ago...seriously?! A lot has been learned and changes made to deal with this sort of thing.
100% of product goes out the door tested before it ships.
There's room for failures, BUT I still think the majority are from outside causes NOT related to component or controller quality. Keep in mind I've destroyed multiple PV controllers ALL on my dime! I've already stated how many!!! Do you see me ranting about how shitty they are? Let it go already!
larsb
1 MW
ElectricGod said:
I don't see you ranting about "how shitty they are" and no one else is saying that either. But i see you ranting about how many controllers you destroy through your own mistakes.
You are a sellers wet dream
Loads of money spent, no questions asked.
MJSfoto1956
10 kW
madin88 said:
To be fair to all, if you are down in the trenches, then one year seems like an eternity (I've been there). If you are a consumer, then a year is like yesterday (I've been there too). Can we make an effort to understand each other here? (yes, that means both ways)
EG has worked his butt off (Vadym too) experimenting like a mad scientist to try to make something special for the rest of us on a shoe string (well, in the case of EG on his credit card presumably). Early adopters have had some less-than-stellar experiences which has left a bad taste in their mouths. I for one like supporting such "long shot" causes even though it may never pan out.
Can we leave it at that and move forward? You know, like adults?
Michael
larsb
1 MW
MJSfoto1956 said:
That's glorifying a bit, EG did his usual "testing", powervelocity bought the controller chassis, did the work and the output was sabvoton controllers with an app for nearly double the price. Might be worth it for the folks that like fancy apps but for someone looking for a reliable controller it was not what it was said to be up until we don't know when.. less than a year ago.
mad scientist and shoestring does not fit.
j bjork
100 kW
I am sorry for continuing with this ot, but I must say that it is remarkable if there was non genuine mosfets in madin:s controller. Was it not the big thing with buying from powervelocity to get genuine mosfets?
That it is not very waterproof, only has speet throttle and such are expected. It is after all a chinese controller.
Edit, I think the new controller sounds really interesting though :thumb:
But I am one of those who would prefer the option to have a dedicated display mounted on the bike.
That it is not very waterproof, only has speet throttle and such are expected. It is after all a chinese controller.
Edit, I think the new controller sounds really interesting though :thumb:
But I am one of those who would prefer the option to have a dedicated display mounted on the bike.
MJSfoto1956
10 kW
larsb said:
Oh he fits my definition of a classic mad scientist -- i.e. someone who likes to break things!
M
ElectricGod
10 MW
j bjork said:
Whether Madin88 got legit mosfets or not is known. The more I think about it, Madin88 has ranted many times, I know that he got AOT290 mosfets in his controller. This was one of the first mosfets we tried from known legit sources (Digikey, Mouser, Arrow, etc). I've mentioned in several threads that I've seen significant mosfet variance from legitimate sources. We were seeing a lot of variance on AOT290 mosfets so about 20% of them would never get used in controllers. I personally have 15 or 20 AOT290's that will never see use in a controller. My suspicion is maybe Madin88 by accident got a mosfet that was way out of spec. It has been a year plus at least since I bought an AOT290 so I can't say if they got their quality issues under control or not. Vadym stopped using this mosfet due to less than great mosfet consistency. Later on he moved to the TI CSD19536KCS, but they too had a good bit of inconsistency. I have a couple of controllers with this mosfet in them. I also have 2 with AOT290's in them and all are working great. Now days anything 100v is using the MagnaChip MDP10N027. 150v controllers use the IRFP4115. ALL from legit sources!!!
I'd have to ask Vadym and this was more than a year ago, AOT290's were used for a very short time...like 2 or 3 months. The specs looked great on paper, but reality was another matter! Quality issues with this mosfet were far too common and getting mosfets that met specs meant buying lots of extras that didn't.
One of those controllers of mine with AOT290's in it is an 18 fet and I run it at 200 phase amps. Yes...you read that...an 18 fet PV controller at 200 phase amps continuous. Admittedly, it was running Infineons originally and I blew 17 of the 18 mosfets in it. I then hand picked 18 AOT290's for it and it has been running strong ever since at 200 phase amps.
I had to stop to take the screen shot, but as you can see my temps are A-OK after 12.5 miles of riding.
If you have a controller from Vadym, that has IRFP4110's in it, most likely it is from the very few original controllers he ever imported pre-populated from China. These are the ONLY controllers ever sold where the source (legit or fake) is NOT known for sure. Soon after that Vadym would order controllers with zero mosfets in them and order mosfets from legit USA based distributors. There's just no way that Madin88 got "fake" mosfets! At worst he accidentally got AOT290's that were way off specs.
I have controllers that do speed and or current throttles. LOL...I have some 25 controllers I've personally bought! I like speed throttles more. A speed throttle applies full phase amps at zero RPM's and all the way to max RPM's. This can make for a jumpy start off for a power heavy build. The current PV controllers have a soft start function so if this is an issue for you, use this option or use one of the speed/power profiles for this. With a current throttle, low throttle is low phase amps so you can make a soft start-off just by applying low throttle. IMHO, I don't really need this as I like having to lean into the EV when I take off from a start to keep it on the ground. I never run at less than full phase amps! Throttle type is purely a preference thing.
ElectricGod
10 MW
MJSfoto1956 said:larsb said:
Oh he fits my definition of a classic mad scientist -- i.e. someone who likes to break things!
M
Likes to break things...I don't know if "like" is the right word. How about "willing" to break things.
Geez...the number of blown mosfets I've replaced...hundreds? IF you really want to see what something can endure, test it until it dies!
Fried controllers..uhhh...8 or 10 from various sources, but I don't remember for sure. Most of them I was able to repair. I think I have truly totaled 4 controllers that I didn't think were worth fixing.
People like to criticize and be judgemental, but you don't see them spending their own money and time doing what I've done. I'm not perfect or in any way consider myself to be an expert. What I can say emphatically is that I've done what most haters will never do and that is spend my own money and time to find out for myself! I have done this specifically quite a lot and spent thousands of dollars of my money with no expectation of reward or recovery of the cost. I did it becasue I wanted to find out for myself. Go look at the many review threads I've done! No one ever sponsored me or in any way paid me for anything!
People that are critical of what I do or have done...all I can say is they are arrogant jerks!
ElectricGod
10 MW
OK back on track to this controller...which will be great and will use the PV app for programming and dashboard functions...all of which are great things IMHO!
FOC controllers in this wattage typically cost 2-3X more money than what Vadym is proposing. Finding 150v controllers is slim pickings no matter what. Finding 150v FOC controllers, even more so. SO THEN...150v, 22kw, FOC and $500...sign me up!!!
I plan on buying 2 of them just as soon as I can pry them loose from Vadym! They will drive a hubmonster motor which has 6 phases at 32S or 131v. This motor is capable with cooling of close to 40kw. 2 of these controllers is a great match for this motor. I've been wanting to drive this motor since I found one in January 2018. Cost for FOC controllers that can run this motor have been prohibitive and nearly all are 100v max.
I should be able to get this scooter going to an impressive 100-110mph! What better way to test this controller!!! The scooter will need some modding to get it stable at those speeds, but that's just parts and reinforcing and modding. I can't wait to see all of you in my side mirrors and about a mile behind me!
I have the scooter. I have the motor. I have the batteries. I have just about everything needed for this build except some incidentals. Just need 2 controllers to get this build going!
FOC controllers in this wattage typically cost 2-3X more money than what Vadym is proposing. Finding 150v controllers is slim pickings no matter what. Finding 150v FOC controllers, even more so. SO THEN...150v, 22kw, FOC and $500...sign me up!!!
I plan on buying 2 of them just as soon as I can pry them loose from Vadym! They will drive a hubmonster motor which has 6 phases at 32S or 131v. This motor is capable with cooling of close to 40kw. 2 of these controllers is a great match for this motor. I've been wanting to drive this motor since I found one in January 2018. Cost for FOC controllers that can run this motor have been prohibitive and nearly all are 100v max.
I should be able to get this scooter going to an impressive 100-110mph! What better way to test this controller!!! The scooter will need some modding to get it stable at those speeds, but that's just parts and reinforcing and modding. I can't wait to see all of you in my side mirrors and about a mile behind me!
I have the scooter. I have the motor. I have the batteries. I have just about everything needed for this build except some incidentals. Just need 2 controllers to get this build going!
Tolkano
100 W
The website only offers US shipping, is there international shipping?
Powervelocity.com
100 kW
Please send the request to sales@powervelocity.com
tolkaNo said:
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