Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Lightweight / Folding / Portable EVs - seats optional
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omadawn   10 W

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by omadawn » Jun 22 2019 6:14am

Ok, forget all the above, problem came back, right after this last full charge... :( :?
decided the disconnect the black alone that goes from that battery straight to the controller.... Have done it before, But this time left the LCD screen on, while running the disconnect & connect process...

And voilá...
This time, no "voilá".... What seemed to me the reset solution, this time did not work.
This is happening always after the complete discharge, or, like if something is blocking the power to the motor right after a complete charge...

I guess we are back on "square one"... :cry:

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TommyCat   100 W

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by TommyCat » Jun 22 2019 7:30pm

Sounds like it may be an "overcharging" charger. Looks like the battery is only rated to 29 volts (or 29.4 vdc max for a 7S battery), and with you going to 29.7vdc... :shock: May I see a picture of the charger's data plate. (sticker)
Last edited by TommyCat on Jun 24 2019 8:13am, edited 1 time in total.
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omadawn   10 W

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by omadawn » Jun 23 2019 6:42am

tmp-cam-634578361.jpg
tmp-cam-634578361.jpg (131.45 KiB) Viewed 707 times
What I can say is that the internal circuit of the lithium battery is working fine. I know because in the manual they speak of a ridiculous 8 h to charge. Then, a little bit more than 5 hours I checked the charger, it had the green light on and it was cold. Hanged out, turned LCD on and there were the 29.7 V

Even with the above said, so you still thing it's overcharged?
Waited for it to reach 19.4 V and disconnected-connected the usual black & red alones, nothing...
So, what can I do now?

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TommyCat   100 W

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by TommyCat » Jun 23 2019 5:29pm

omadawn wrote:
Jun 23 2019 6:42am
Waited for it to reach 19.4 V and disconnected-connected the usual black & red alones, nothing...



So, what can I do now?
The 19.4 volts doesn't make sense to me... I'm thinking you meant 29.4vdc at the battery discharge wires? If so take it down a bit lower than 29vdc with the lights on draining power, and then try resetting it.


Some chargers allow you to take a voltage reading at what it charges at from it's charging connection when not connected to the battery. I would do that and see what the actual output is. Should be no more than 29.4vdc. It was provided with the scooter...right?
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omadawn   10 W

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by omadawn » Jun 23 2019 6:08pm

Some chargers allow you to take a voltage reading at what it charges at from it's charging connection when not connected to the battery. I would do that and see what the actual output is. Should be no more than 29.4vdc. It was provided with the scooter...right?
Yes it was. I have 4 outputs on the end of the charger. They are marked as 1,2,3, and 4, which one is the negative, and the positive?...

Also will try to bring a MULTIMETER from work, because mine has the scale limit of 20 V, after it goes till 600 (only integer then).

Lets say I manage to take a reading of 29.7 V, whats to conclude then? 24 V batteries cannot be charged to more that 29.4 ?
why?

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TommyCat   100 W

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by TommyCat » Jun 24 2019 8:11am

First try your battery pack at successive lower voltages, and see that it will indeed reset to make sure that we are on the right path.

An individual Li-Ion battery cell is not to be charged above 4.2vdc. So with 7 cells in series (possible for a 24 volt nominal battery), times 4.2, equals 29.4 volts MAXIMUM charge.

But your battery pack also says 29 volts max operating range... or it could be the controller is hitting high cut-out at about the same voltage. See if, and when your system resets and we will come up with a course of action.

Again no luck finding exact information on your charger, as far as port pin-out goes. :( Carefully probe the connectors, not shorting your test leads, to find the right ones.
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omadawn   10 W

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by omadawn » Jun 24 2019 10:05am

Again no luck finding exact information on your charger, as far as port pin-out goes. :( Carefully probe the connectors, not shorting your test leads, to find the right ones.
Ok, will first assume the negative is the "1", then will search for voltage consecutively on all others. There is a good change that I won´t be getting any readings right? (most chargers won´t let me read voltage)
The safety
circuitry includes a Li-ion protector that controls
back-to-back FET switches. These switches can be
opened to protect the pack against fault conditions
such as overvoltage, undervoltage, and overcurrent.
If the battery range is indeed 29 V, I wonder why is that the battery internal circuit does not stop the charge at 29 V instead of 29.7 V....

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TommyCat   100 W

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by TommyCat » Jun 24 2019 4:01pm

Good point. That's why double checking with a known good quality multi-meter is a good idea. Perhaps the display's reading is off. Did you get it to restart after discharging a bit?

I don't know how you can tell for sure which chargers will give you readings or not. But here are a couple great threads about chargers, how they are suppose to work. And how to adjust if possible.

https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kn ... d-advanced

https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kn ... cal-issues
Last edited by TommyCat on Jun 24 2019 4:25pm, edited 1 time in total.
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omadawn   10 W

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by omadawn » Jun 24 2019 4:09pm

Just arrived home, checked the LCD marking 28.9 V simply hit the throttle and there we go!! (No reset needed... :shock: )

charger's voltage test not conclusive. The work meter is not working good. Mine shows only the 29 V reading... :(

Will take the charger to work, and ask for help there to get that reading.

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omadawn   10 W

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by omadawn » Jun 27 2019 1:20pm

Ok finally done, it's confirmed 29.7 V
However, my colleague, much more expert than me, advised me that I should make the measure on charge, if it was designed for that battery then probably be deliver lower voltage.

What do you think?

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TommyCat   100 W

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by TommyCat » Jun 28 2019 8:14am

I don't think it works that way. And with the battery charging to 29.7 after a full charge it's clear something is not right. Now some chargers need to be a tad over to fully charge a battery. But this does not seem to be the case here.

:warn: It is important to keep the individual cells from being charged over their 4.2 volt maximum capacity. Damage or fire could result. :flame:

What I think we know... :wink:

1) The controller is keeping the motor from running above 29 volts. (controller high voltage limit)
2) The battery states it's operating voltage is 20 to 29 volts.
3) You have a charger that is rated at 29.4 vdc but over charges to 29.7 volts. :shock:

What to do? Possibilities...

1) Have a talk with the seller to make sure you have the correct parts, verify battery cell construction and type. Possible replacement of charger. Get correct parts.
2) Just manually charge to 29 volts or where the motor works, that is at or under 29.4 volts for a 7S battery. (verify)
3) Add a correctly sized diode in the charging circuit which would reduce the output of the charger by .7 volts.
4) Open up charger and see if it is adjustable.

Now charging short of the batteries full capacity all the time may cause the cells to become unbalanced over time. Which will result in a loss of capacity if they do...
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omadawn   10 W

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by omadawn » Jun 28 2019 10:31am

4) Open up charger and see if it is adjustable.
Will do that and post a pic here.
3) Add a correctly sized diode in the charging circuit which would reduce the output of the charger by .7 volts.
If the above option wont work?
Now charging short of the batteries full capacity all the time may cause the cells to become unbalanced over time
Do you mean charging the battery below 29.4 V ?

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TommyCat   100 W

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by TommyCat » Jun 28 2019 3:34pm

omadawn wrote:
Jun 28 2019 10:31am
Do you mean charging the battery below 29.4 V ?
Yes, to be more specific... with a 7S battery, several BMS don't start balancing till a cell group reaches 4.15 volts. This would be at a total balanced charge of 29.05 volts.
That's why I find your kit components (charger to battery/controller) confusing. And asking for verification on them as well as battery build.
But if your motor runs at 29.4 volts supply voltage, no worries! That would be perfect.
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omadawn   10 W

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by omadawn » Jun 28 2019 4:39pm

I see, that's why there is balance chargers right?

I will make an assisted charge till 29.4 V and then take note of the exact voltage the motor effectively runs.

I also have an old balance charger from my old modeling days, could make it to use, the problem is the end cable switch...

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TommyCat   100 W

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by TommyCat » Jun 29 2019 8:11am

omadawn wrote:
Jun 28 2019 4:39pm
I see, that's why there is balance chargers right?
Arguably a more direct, efficient, and quicker way than with a battery's BMS. Albeit more costly. Have never used one.
omadawn wrote:
Jun 28 2019 4:39pm
I will make an assisted charge till 29.4 V and then take note of the exact voltage the motor effectively runs.
:thumb:

:warn: Note: When working on a controller, or charger. Be sure to allow the capacitors (which hold electrical charges) time to discharge before touching things... :wink: This may take up to a few minuites.
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omadawn   10 W

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by omadawn » Jun 30 2019 2:24pm

Note: When working on a controller, or charger. Be sure to allow the capacitors (which hold electrical charges) time to discharge before touching things... :wink: This may take up to a few minuites.
Not sure if I understood right, after the battery is discharged (in continuous o use), I need to wait a few minutes to put it on charge again. Is that what you meant?

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by Voltron » Jun 30 2019 2:30pm

Not to speak for him, but he prob meant while the controller or charger are opened up and you accidently bridge some capacitor contacts before they've sat long enough to discharge.

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TommyCat   100 W

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by TommyCat » Jun 30 2019 3:41pm

Sorry for the confusion,

Before working on, and after removing the battery power from the controller, or the charger from the wall outlet and/or battery power. You must allow time for the internal capacitors built into the circuitry of each, time to bleed off their charges. Before taking off the covers, and poking around inside. A few minutes should be sufficient. Capacitors store electrical charge for awhile after supply voltage is removed. :bolt:

Always good to check if you don't understand completly. :)

Thanks Voltron.
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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by Voltron » Jun 30 2019 4:26pm

:thumb:

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omadawn   10 W

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by omadawn » Jul 01 2019 9:18am

Ok, so the charger has no screws, and very hard to open (it seems really made not to be opened)...

So where can we go (diode solution) from the ending switch bellow:
0701191219.jpg

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TommyCat   100 W

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by TommyCat » Jul 01 2019 10:54am

omadawn wrote:
Jun 28 2019 4:39pm
I will make an assisted charge till 29.4 V and then take note of the exact voltage the motor effectively runs.
What did you find out on this?
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omadawn   10 W

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by omadawn » Jul 01 2019 11:23am

TommyCat wrote:
Jul 01 2019 10:54am
omadawn wrote:
Jun 28 2019 4:39pm
I will make an assisted charge till 29.4 V and then take note of the exact voltage the motor effectively runs.
What did you find out on this?
haven´t done it yet, have to be home when it finishes charging, still coordinating my time :wink:

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by fechter » Jul 01 2019 11:44am

There are several faults that can make the controller not run. You checked the throttle and brakes and those look OK.
Another one is the hall sensors from the motor. You can check those by measuring the voltages on the hall sensor connector and turning the motor by hand.
Another one is if the battery voltage is too low. Easy to check.
Beyond that, some controllers have "anti-theft" features that may or may not be enabled. Generally you can unplug everything from the controller besides the motor hall sensors, throttle, and key switch power and it should run.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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omadawn   10 W

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by omadawn » Jul 02 2019 9:03am

Thank you fechter for your kind contribution to our quest. Always great learning so much from you guys :D

Soon as I can, will make the battery test, and we will have updates in the elimination of issues process

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Re: Test The Brake Lever Switch help

Post by Voltron » Jul 02 2019 11:40am

If your charger has little rubber feet.. The screws are often under those when you peel them off.

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