New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

hefest said:

casainho said:

TSDZ2 can sustain about 500W continuous if you ise a 52V battery.

Click to expand...

This means it can sustain 9.5-10A continuous, I'm guessing. With 48V nominal that would be 450-480W.

I've got 48V 750W from PSWpower, and it states in the description that it is 15A motor. Is there a difference between this one and the one people are mentioning here as 18A max?

Click to expand...

Hefest, did you ever find out more about the 18A version? I see that PSWPower lists both the 48V 500W & 750W as 15A but then there are other sellers with 18A versions.
http://recycles-ebike.com/tongsheng-tsdz2/95-tongsheng-motor-conversion-ebike-kittorque-sensor-48v-500w-42t-chainwheelwith-thumb-throttlecutoff-brake.html

And this post showing both versions together.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=79788&start=1125#p1320280

Are the PSWPower ones in fact identical and the 500W is just limited by firmware?

All,

I will convert my bullitt to TSDZ2.
I've read the wiki, and many pages on this forum (and other fora). Below a summary of what I think is needed for my conversion.

1) The TSDZ2 will not fit out of the box on the bullitt, removing material on the motor is needed. I have a dremel so i will give it a go. My intention is to also put a rubber damping between motor and frame to reduce noise transfer. (BTW; did anyone even try to mount it motor above the crank on a bullitt?)
2) The default display and controller are not perfect. Luckily there is a choice between 2 other displays. 850C looks best in my opinion. I will order the one linked in the post above. instruction on the wiki for KT-LCD3 are much more detailed as for the 850C but I assume I can use the instruction of the LCD3 for the 850 as well. (same STLinkV2 connecter used for firmware flashing)
3) Initially I will pair it with a 10speed casette, so I should have no problems finding a gear where the chain line is OK-ish. In the future I want to go to alfine 8spd hub. then chainline might become an issue, but we'll see by that time how to deal with that.
4) Spare brass gear ordered in case needed.
5) Magnetic brake sensor ordered as I have hydraulic brakes.


Which brings me to the last item where I have some doubt still:
6) There are many versions of the motor. I don't need max power as I live in a flat country and I have a FTP of ~250 - 300watts myself. I would like to have assist above 90RPM which might be an issue. As I understand if I take the 36V motor and power it at a higher voltage that should give me higher RPM's right?
- What battery Voltage would you advise for 36V motor?
- I like the bottle-look batteries, anyone have experience with a reputable seller for those?
- Lower voltage means higher amps and thus higher heatload for the same power output, do you advise to install the temp sensor o is there a safe power limit i can use which will not overheat the motor?

RDJEHV said:

I will convert my bullitt to TSDZ2.

Click to expand...

One of my dreams is to buy the bullitt frame and install TSDZ2 on it. I hope I will do it in 1 or 2 years, depending on a new baby in the family

RDJEHV said:

1) The TSDZ2 will not fit out of the box on the bullitt, removing material on the motor is needed. I have a dremel so i will give it a go. My intention is to also put a rubber damping between motor and frame to reduce noise transfer. (BTW; did anyone even try to mount it motor above the crank on a bullitt?)

Click to expand...

Please share photos, I am very interested to see!!

RDJEHV said:

Which brings me to the last item where I have some doubt still:
6) There are many versions of the motor. I don't need max power as I live in a flat country and I have a FTP of ~250 - 300watts myself. I would like to have assist above 90RPM which might be an issue. As I understand if I take the 36V motor and power it at a higher voltage that should give me higher RPM's right?
- What battery Voltage would you advise for 36V motor?
- I like the bottle-look batteries, anyone have experience with a reputable seller for those?
- Lower voltage means higher amps and thus higher heatload for the same power output, do you advise to install the temp sensor o is there a safe power limit i can use which will not overheat the motor?

Click to expand...

I think 36V may be an advantage if you are looking to use low power like 300W (8 amps) continuous and 640W peak (18 amps). And this way you can use a small and light battery pack of 10S2P (20 cells) of 250Wh (considering 3500mAh each cell: 3.6 volts * 3.5A * 10 cells * 2 parallels = 252 Wh). I am using a 52V battery pack of 14S3P (42 cells) of 520Wh.

With a 250Wh battery pack, you can drive continuous for 1h at 250W. If you are doing circular circuits, half of the time is descending so maybe the riding time will expand 166% to 1h40m.

If no temperature sensor, then I think 8 amps continuous is safe.

I bought batteries as also the motor, LCD, everything from PSWPower. To get cells with 3500mAh you will probably need to build your own pack other way you will be able to get battery packs with cells of only 2800mAh.

RDJEHV said:

The TSDZ2 will not fit out of the box on the bullitt, removing material on the motor is needed. I have a dremel so i will give it a go. My intention is to also put a rubber damping between motor and frame to reduce noise transfer. (BTW; did anyone even try to mount it motor above the crank on a bullitt?)

Click to expand...

There is no room for rubber damping or rotating the motor anywhere.
I actually had to sand down my frame a millimeter or so (nice to have an unpainted frame if that's the case)

famichiki said:

hefest said:

casainho said:

TSDZ2 can sustain about 500W continuous if you ise a 52V battery.

Click to expand...

This means it can sustain 9.5-10A continuous, I'm guessing. With 48V nominal that would be 450-480W.

I've got 48V 750W from PSWpower, and it states in the description that it is 15A motor. Is there a difference between this one and the one people are mentioning here as 18A max?

Click to expand...

Hefest, did you ever find out more about the 18A version? I see that PSWPower lists both the 48V 500W & 750W as 15A but then there are other sellers with 18A versions.
http://recycles-ebike.com/tongsheng-tsdz2/95-tongsheng-motor-conversion-ebike-kittorque-sensor-48v-500w-42t-chainwheelwith-thumb-throttlecutoff-brake.html

And this post showing both versions together.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=79788&start=1125#p1320280

Are the PSWPower ones in fact identical and the 500W is just limited by firmware?

Click to expand...

HI,







At Recycles-ebike.com they say:

"Powerful. Fully Loaded.

Unlike some competitor models, our units are TRUE 750w 18a, the most powerful on the market available for this unit. We also have special speed sensors, which are more robust, and include a split 'Y' adapter, to hook up a headlight, and taillight, which you can control from the display/cockpit! Also, our VLDC-5 unit comes fully loaded with throttle, and e-brakes. The VLDC-5 display also has a usb port, to charge your mobile device!"


I am curious because I only knew 36V and 48V motors.

Do we have, now, 48V with 18A or 15A.


I just bought yesterday an 48V 15A from Ebird Store on Aliexpress.

As you can see in the picture.It is a 100mm BB size.

Many Thanks
Azur

JacobDK said:

RDJEHV said:

The TSDZ2 will not fit out of the box on the bullitt, removing material on the motor is needed. I have a dremel so i will give it a go. My intention is to also put a rubber damping between motor and frame to reduce noise transfer. (BTW; did anyone even try to mount it motor above the crank on a bullitt?)

Click to expand...

There is no room for rubber damping or rotating the motor anywhere.
I actually had to sand down my frame a millimeter or so (nice to have an unpainted frame if that's the case)

Click to expand...

I don't think I'm prepared to do that! It looks dependant on frame and/or motor build tolerances.
Hopefully I'm lucky!

RDJEHV said:

JacobDK said:

RDJEHV said:

The TSDZ2 will not fit out of the box on the bullitt, removing material on the motor is needed. I have a dremel so i will give it a go. My intention is to also put a rubber damping between motor and frame to reduce noise transfer. (BTW; did anyone even try to mount it motor above the crank on a bullitt?)

Click to expand...

There is no room for rubber damping or rotating the motor anywhere.
I actually had to sand down my frame a millimeter or so (nice to have an unpainted frame if that's the case)

Click to expand...

I don't think I'm prepared to do that! It looks dependant on frame and/or motor build tolerances.
Hopefully I'm lucky!

Click to expand...

On my full suspension bicycles I had to use a file both on frames as also on TSDZ2 shell.

famichiki said:

hefest said:

casainho said:

TSDZ2 can sustain about 500W continuous if you ise a 52V battery.

Click to expand...

This means it can sustain 9.5-10A continuous, I'm guessing. With 48V nominal that would be 450-480W.

I've got 48V 750W from PSWpower, and it states in the description that it is 15A motor. Is there a difference between this one and the one people are mentioning here as 18A max?

Click to expand...

Hefest, did you ever find out more about the 18A version? I see that PSWPower lists both the 48V 500W & 750W as 15A but then there are other sellers with 18A versions.
http://recycles-ebike.com/tongsheng-tsdz2/95-tongsheng-motor-conversion-ebike-kittorque-sensor-48v-500w-42t-chainwheelwith-thumb-throttlecutoff-brake.html

And this post showing both versions together.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=79788&start=1125#p1320280

Are the PSWPower ones in fact identical and the 500W is just limited by firmware?

Click to expand...

They are the same, 18amp is the max you can program the controller for. They will get hot fast at 18amps.

AZUR said:

famichiki said:

hefest said:

casainho said:

TSDZ2 can sustain about 500W continuous if you ise a 52V battery.

Click to expand...

This means it can sustain 9.5-10A continuous, I'm guessing. With 48V nominal that would be 450-480W.

I've got 48V 750W from PSWpower, and it states in the description that it is 15A motor. Is there a difference between this one and the one people are mentioning here as 18A max?

Click to expand...

Hefest, did you ever find out more about the 18A version? I see that PSWPower lists both the 48V 500W & 750W as 15A but then there are other sellers with 18A versions.
http://recycles-ebike.com/tongsheng-tsdz2/95-tongsheng-motor-conversion-ebike-kittorque-sensor-48v-500w-42t-chainwheelwith-thumb-throttlecutoff-brake.html

And this post showing both versions together.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=79788&start=1125#p1320280

Are the PSWPower ones in fact identical and the 500W is just limited by firmware?

Click to expand...

HI,

At Recycles-ebike.com they say:

"Powerful. Fully Loaded.

Unlike some competitor models, our units are TRUE 750w 18a, the most powerful on the market available for this unit. We also have special speed sensors, which are more robust, and include a split 'Y' adapter, to hook up a headlight, and taillight, which you can control from the display/cockpit! Also, our VLDC-5 unit comes fully loaded with throttle, and e-brakes. The VLDC-5 display also has a usb port, to charge your mobile device!"


I am curious because I only knew 36V and 48V motors.

Do we have, now, 48V with 18A or 15A.


I just bought yesterday an 48V 15A from Ebird Store on Aliexpress.

As you can see in the picture.It is a 100mm BB size.

Many Thanks
Azur

Click to expand...

Fairly sure it is the same as the other controllers with an 18amp sticker and programmed for 18amps.

Has anyone wired the back of the VLCD5 directly to the PCB of the KTLCD3? I thought this would be the simplest solution so I don't have to splice a bunch of wires, but then I see the VLCD5 doesn't use wires, it uses pins and springs to connect to the PCB! Just curious if anyone maybe, put a plug in the holes to do this. The KTLCD screen and PCB seem to fit fine in the case of the VLCD5 however.

Also, any reason the stock thumb remote won't work if I try this?

RDJEHV said:

2) The default display and controller are not perfect. Luckily there is a choice between 2 other displays. 850C looks best in my opinion. I will order the one linked in the post above. instruction on the wiki for KT-LCD3 are much more detailed as for the 850C but I assume I can use the instruction of the LCD3 for the 850 as well. (same STLinkV2 connecter used for firmware flashing)

Click to expand...

I just ordered the 850. I will video the steps to dismantle, flash and reassemble week after next (unfortunately travelling next week). Because there are only pads and no through holes likely to run small pigtail out for easy flashing allowing resealing for water proofing.

RDJEHV said:

3) Initially I will pair it with a 10speed casette, so I should have no problems finding a gear where the chain line is OK-ish. In the future I want to go to alfine 8spd hub. then chainline might become an issue, but we'll see by that time how to deal with that.

Click to expand...

Depending on your frame likely chainline for internally geared hub will be near perfect.

RDJEHV said:

4) Spare brass gear ordered in case needed.

Click to expand...

Potentially noiser (the TSDZ2 is already noisy). My TSDZ2 is in a Gazelle Cabby cargo bike and with the slow current ramp of the OSF (open source firmware) the Nylon gear is going fine after 1500KM

RDJEHV said:

5) Magnetic brake sensor ordered as I have hydraulic brakes.

Click to expand...

Not needed in my opinion, yes with a PAS like the Bafang needed, but not with the torque sensing so much. I have had Bafang PAS and have Bafang Torque sensing ... the Bafang torque sensing has no brake cutouts from factory.

RDJEHV said:

Which brings me to the last item where I have some doubt still:
6) There are many versions of the motor. I don't need max power as I live in a flat country and I have a FTP of ~250 - 300watts myself. I would like to have assist above 90RPM which might be an issue. As I understand if I take the 36V motor and power it at a higher voltage that should give me higher RPM's right?
- What battery Voltage would you advise for 36V motor?
- I like the bottle-look batteries, anyone have experience with a reputable seller for those?
- Lower voltage means higher amps and thus higher heatload for the same power output, do you advise to install the temp sensor o is there a safe power limit i can use which will not overheat the motor?

Click to expand...

I have the 36V motor with 36V battery. In my experience I don't find the RPM limiting. Yes you get more torque as the RPMs drop a bit, but what I find even with the battery at say 35V (near flat) I am riding at 85-90RPM with 150W coming from the motor (on lowish assist). If I am riding a steep hill I find my cadence naturally drops to around 70-75 where you are getting max torque and power from the motor (and from me). This is in contrast to the original firmware which lost a lot of power at the max rpms, and when comparing to a Bafang where the max rpm and torque completely dropped away as the battery got down in voltage.

If you are doing a decent amount of work and not smashing up steep hills for 10-15 mins at a time you will be fine re heat. I doubt there is much in 36V vs say 42 or 48V from a thermal perspective. If you run the motor over 300-400W for too long it will cook, no matter the voltage. The motor core is well insulated unfortunately.

casainho said:

WARNING ABOUT 850C LCD

NOTE: an user bought a different version of this LCD that is listed as DPC14 and that has a different hardware where our firmware does not work. If you want to make sure you buy the correct version, buy from PSWPower the model P850C on this link: http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2016-5e-2eaj
The DPC14 has the same appearance and seems to be a cheaper version with less memory and processing power.

Click to expand...

The DPC-14 is not a cheaper version. It is the same display as the 850-C. It just happens to be the model number Bafang uses. 850C is the model number APT Development, the actual manufacturer uses. The reason the one you are referencing has less memory and processing is that it is an older model. 850C's purchased in the same time frame had the same lower memory and processing power.

It is not the fact that it is a DPC-14 that caused the problem for the user. He said he had the display a long time. It is the date of manufacture that is the problem. In my experience, every 850C or DPC-14 manufactured after the first quarter of 2018 has the new MCU that works with the Open Source Firmware. Any 850C or DPC-14 purchased recently should be ok.

Rydon said:

casainho said:

WARNING ABOUT 850C LCD

NOTE: an user bought a different version of this LCD that is listed as DPC14 and that has a different hardware where our firmware does not work. If you want to make sure you buy the correct version, buy from PSWPower the model P850C on this link: http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2016-5e-2eaj
The DPC14 has the same appearance and seems to be a cheaper version with less memory and processing power.

Click to expand...

The DPC-14 is not a cheaper version. It is the same display as the 850-C. It just happens to be the model number Bafang uses. 850C is the model number APT Development, the actual manufacturer uses. The reason the one you are referencing has less memory and processing is that it is an older model. 850C's purchased in the same time frame had the same lower memory and processing power.

It is not the fact that it is a DPC-14 that caused the problem for the user. He said he had the display a long time. It is the date of manufacture that is the problem. In my experience, every 850C or DPC-14 manufactured after the first quarter of 2018 has the new MCU that works with the Open Source Firmware. Any 850C or DPC-14 purchased recently should be ok.

Click to expand...

Good explanation, I will then update the wiki with this!! Thanks

mctubster said:

I downloaded TSDZ2_Controller_vM0.16.D_and_TSDZ2_Configurator_Beta_0.2.0 from github and it includes the GPL3 license and source for the motor code. I did not see a warning on the JAVA configurator so maybe this isn't the latest.

I think it is a grey area re the configurator being not under GPL. Certainly not in the spirit of your original project. Did you create the data structures that holds the configuration for the open source firmware? If the only purpose of the configurator is to modify the contents of those data structures potentially you could argue it is derived. I don't believe there is a clear cut answer.

Click to expand...

I just wrote an issue on Marcoq github repository, asking for a clarification: https://github.com/qmarco/TSDZ2-Smart-EBike-compatible-with-original-VlCD6-display/issues/3

Anyone who has installed a tsdz2 on a PF41 BB? As I recently got a very nice MTB for very cheap, and now I'm trying to figure out how to move my tsdz2 onto it.

I found the fat bike adapter which will take care of the length.

But I need to adapt the cross section to fit.

Also does anyone know the diameter or cross section of the of the part that goes through the BB?

Hi,


1) I'm unclear on which version I should be flashing in ST Visual Programmer. The Wiki says the LCD and motor are x6, but the video and Eco cycles says x4 (for the motor)?

Aquakitty said:

Hi,


1) I'm unclear on which version I should be flashing in ST Visual Programmer. The Wiki says the LCD and motor are x6, but the video and Eco cycles says x4 (for the motor)?

Click to expand...

I have read that you can use x4 for original firmware, but you have to select x6 if using the open source firmware. Not sure how factual that is.

Hi again,

I think there is something possibly wrong with the chart or diagram here (or the markings on the VLCD5). On the chart it says to connect yellow on the KT-LCD3 to RX on the motor, and green to TX. However, I had to reverse these to get it to work. The colours for the motor might be right, but the labels aren't. I noticed in the video tutorial the guy had the same problem. If not for that I'd have been in trouble!

I wired mine right to the connectors on the back of the inside of the VLCD5 so I wouldn't have to splice the brakes and throttle. That's why I couldn't see the colours of the wires and went by the labels on my VLCD5 (the PCB is labelled). Reversing them fixed the issue.

I had the same issue when wiring the LCD3. The yellow and green were reversed. I also followed the video correction. I also used the button connector to make a pinout for easy updating.

Hi all im looking for a way to troubleshoot this issue. I flashed the tsdz2 and lcd3. Got my battery today, connected everything for the first time and the LCD3 turns on but theres nothing meaningful. Just fully lit, displaying all characters.

I have the 4-1 cable and followed these wiring diagrams. Soldered everything up, tested wiring again and again with volt meter, seems correct.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=244844&sid=48912044b602f6d16a40aac3d90c6b94&mode=view
and
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&p=1430679#p1430679

Anyone seen the lcd3 turn on like that? wondering what should i test next..

thank you

ezrider1199 said:

Hi all im looking for a way to troubleshoot this issue. I flashed the tsdz2 and lcd3. Got my battery today, connected everything for the first time and the LCD3 turns on but theres nothing meaningful. Just fully lit, displaying all characters.

I have the 4-1 cable and followed these wiring diagrams. Soldered everything up, tested wiring again and again with volt meter, seems correct.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=244844&sid=48912044b602f6d16a40aac3d90c6b94&mode=view
and
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&p=1430679#p1430679

Anyone seen the lcd3 turn on like that? wondering what should i test next..

thank you

Click to expand...

- make sure brake sensors are not active
- are you sure UART TX and RX to LCD3 are correctly connected?

Aquakitty said:

I think there is something possibly wrong with the chart or diagram here

Click to expand...

I also used some time on this before soldering up.
The summary table together with the two pictures below wants you connect Tx to Tx and Rx to Rx which is wrong.
My conclusion is that the yellow and green wires for LCD3 has to be swapped in the summary table and that the motor wires are marked correctly. That would be consistent with the labeling on the VLCD5 PCB: In the original setup the brown controller-wire are connected to a contact labled RX and the yellow controller-wire connected to a contact labled TX on the VLCD5 PCB.
Here is my (working) 8-wire to KTLCD3 connections with what I believe to be the correct labeling:

casainho said:

ezrider1199 said:

Hi all im looking for a way to troubleshoot this issue. I flashed the tsdz2 and lcd3. Got my battery today, connected everything for the first time and the LCD3 turns on but theres nothing meaningful. Just fully lit, displaying all characters.

I have the 4-1 cable and followed these wiring diagrams. Soldered everything up, tested wiring again and again with volt meter, seems correct.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=244844&sid=48912044b602f6d16a40aac3d90c6b94&mode=view
and
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&p=1430679#p1430679

Anyone seen the lcd3 turn on like that? wondering what should i test next..

thank you

Click to expand...

- make sure brake sensors are not active
- are you sure UART TX and RX to LCD3 are correctly connected?

Click to expand...

casainho, thanks for your reply and this project! I dont have the breaks and throttle connected yet, just the battery, motor, and lcd. Both motor and battery are latest firmwares. I thought i had verified the wiring (especially the UART) but its late here and will confirm tomorrow after some needed sleep.

RicMcK said:

I had the same issue when wiring the LCD3. The yellow and green were reversed. I also followed the video correction. I also used the button connector to make a pinout for easy updating.

Click to expand...

Hi can you please confirm, the colours are correct yellow to yellow and brown to green? ie the pictures are correct and the colours in the table are correct (I am assuming 8 wire from the motor controller). Which table is wrong then? Do you mean the labeling inside the LCD3 is the opposite to what is in the table? Actually the table only details the RX and TX for the motor end. Is that being confused for the LCD3 end?

Thanks

ezrider1199 said:

casainho said:

ezrider1199 said:

Hi all im looking for a way to troubleshoot this issue. I flashed the tsdz2 and lcd3. Got my battery today, connected everything for the first time and the LCD3 turns on but theres nothing meaningful. Just fully lit, displaying all characters.

I have the 4-1 cable and followed these wiring diagrams. Soldered everything up, tested wiring again and again with volt meter, seems correct.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=244844&sid=48912044b602f6d16a40aac3d90c6b94&mode=view
and
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&p=1430679#p1430679

Anyone seen the lcd3 turn on like that? wondering what should i test next..

thank you

Click to expand...

- make sure brake sensors are not active
- are you sure UART TX and RX to LCD3 are correctly connected?

Click to expand...

casainho, thanks for your reply and this project! I dont have the breaks and throttle connected yet, just the battery, motor, and lcd. Both motor and battery are latest firmwares. I thought i had verified the wiring (especially the UART) but its late here and will confirm tomorrow after some needed sleep.

Click to expand...

I would try reversing TX and RX. Seems there is a misunderstanding or error in the documentation or labeling somewhere