Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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Offroader   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Aug 04 2019 8:12am

3DTOPO wrote:
Aug 02 2019 6:54pm



Can't say I completely agree. There are plenty of folks converting bad ass 250's etc., to electric, often with 30KW of power.

Since all they are doing is dropping in a motor, controller and battery - the build can be better than the original bike. And I have to say KTM doesn't exactly make junk. :wink: I would say that if anything - KTM build quality is up a notch or two from the Sur Ron.
I do not consider the Sur-Ron to be anywhere near the same class as 250's. That is a whole different beast of a bike. KTM has its own electric dirt bike out that has a ridiculously good motor but it is more of a 125cc in size, I don't see why anyone would convert a 250 KTM when they can get that. Unless of course they want the larger size of a 250cc.

So it will be just a matter of time before KTM builds a 250cc size electric bike that will easily make not upgrading it worth it. You can't compete with engineered mass produced anything these days.

Thinking about it, the Sur-Ron is kind of on the wider side where there could be improvements in frame size to make it thinner.

sYnSBG   1 µW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by sYnSBG » Aug 04 2019 9:49am

Offroader wrote:
Aug 04 2019 8:07am

You can get this new headset, assuming that is what you are referring to. They have all the right sized parts for a 1 1/8 straight steerer. If your DVO emerald is tapered then you will have to get something different.

https://lunacycle.com/cane-creek-forty- ... t-bearing/
Yep, thanks the emrald is tapered, i found a Headset with the right diameters but i think there are no bearings inside, im new tho this so i have no glue xD

Gravity Unisex SX Pro Keine 55 Tapered Steuerrohr Mountain Bike Headset, Schwarz https://www.amazon.de/dp/B007WRYLJK/ref ... rDbRZ9GRYS

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Aug 04 2019 10:06am

sYnSBG wrote:
Aug 04 2019 9:49am
Offroader wrote:
Aug 04 2019 8:07am

You can get this new headset, assuming that is what you are referring to. They have all the right sized parts for a 1 1/8 straight steerer. If your DVO emerald is tapered then you will have to get something different.

https://lunacycle.com/cane-creek-forty- ... t-bearing/
Yep, thanks the emrald is tapered, i found a Headset with the right diameters but i think there are no bearings inside, im new tho this so i have no glue xD

Gravity Unisex SX Pro Keine 55 Tapered Steuerrohr Mountain Bike Headset, Schwarz https://www.amazon.de/dp/B007WRYLJK/ref ... rDbRZ9GRYS
that's a cartridge bearing hs, the bearings are inside the sealed cartridge.. caged bearings where you can see the roller bearings are usually cheap junk..
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

sYnSBG   1 µW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by sYnSBG » Aug 04 2019 10:59am

Ah OK thanks a lot

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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Aug 04 2019 7:05pm

Offroader wrote:
Aug 04 2019 8:12am
I do not consider the Sur-Ron to be anywhere near the same class as 250's. That is a whole different beast of a bike. KTM has its own electric dirt bike out that has a ridiculously good motor but it is more of a 125cc in size,
I was just using a 250 as an example. Plenty of 80's, 125's etc. being converted.

The point being that a KTM (whatever size) has better build quality than a Sur Ron. Don't get me wrong - for the money the Sur Ron has amazing build quality. But it's certainly not the best out there.
Offroader wrote:
Aug 04 2019 8:12am
I don't see why anyone would convert a 250 KTM when they can get that.
Because people can find a steal of a deal on used bikes - particularly if it needs a new engine. If one manages to get a bike for a steal - then converting it to electric can cost perhaps half of what a KTM Freeride costs.

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Merlin   1 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Merlin » Aug 04 2019 7:57pm

The e-KTM is pretty nice Offroad bike. And yup. That's quality wise some steps above. Funny videos online it's waterproof for 30min fully under water. :p

Did you checked latest price for freeride-E?

7650€... Latest 2019 model new. (+4 year battery rent 600€/year)
Thats 10k at the end ("only")
I wish I could testride it on ugly Offroad terrain. Since years on my screen :p

As mentioned before.. Most "men" are not happy with stock power /parts and upgraded you hit easy above 6k.(surron)

I don't want to think about lmx guys buyed for full 7800 :confused: :lol:


Beside that... Offroader is right. You can't diy build and compete with oem.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by madin88 » Aug 05 2019 3:59am

3DTOPO wrote:
Aug 04 2019 7:05pm
Offroader wrote:
Aug 04 2019 8:12am
I don't see why anyone would convert a 250 KTM when they can get that.
Because people can find a steal of a deal on used bikes - particularly if it needs a new engine. If one manages to get a bike for a steal - then converting it to electric can cost perhaps half of what a KTM Freeride costs.
Used gas bikes can be found for cheap yes thats for sure, but if you wanna convert one you certainly have to design and fabricate many customs parts like a mounting bracket for the motor, battery case, CNC parts etc. Build a battery, do the wiring (BMS) and everything.
Then there is the question: will it be robust enough so that i can do jumps without damaging the battery? Can i ride in rain with it?
So aside from the cost for the electrical parts alone there are many other costs and hours you need to count.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Grantmac » Aug 05 2019 11:58am

I think it likely you could rebuild the gas motor and fuel it, for cheaper than doing an e-conversion and replacing batteries as they wear.

However that doesn't account for accessibility issues that could be helped with converting, or the satisfaction of DIY.

I think the real fun will be once the lease runs out on those KTM batteries and people are selling the bare bikes. That could be a smoking deal if they don't have so many layers of protection between the battery and controller so as to be "bricked" without the KTM BMS.

FYI: around here I can just barely get away with my converted DH bike. The Sur-Ron or KTM would require a >1hr drive to use. So it's a little academic for me.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Aug 05 2019 4:43pm

madin88 wrote:
Aug 05 2019 3:59am
Used gas bikes can be found for cheap yes thats for sure, but if you wanna convert one you certainly have to design and fabricate many customs parts like a mounting bracket for the motor, battery case, CNC parts etc. Build a battery, do the wiring (BMS) and everything.
Then there is the question: will it be robust enough so that i can do jumps without damaging the battery? Can i ride in rain with it?
So aside from the cost for the electrical parts alone there are many other costs and hours you need to count.
The main part that would need a little bit of machining is the motor mount. I have a CNC machine, so that would not be an issue. If someone needed a motor mount and did not know someone with a CNC machine or could not afford what must only be around $60 to have cut, one could manage making one from aluminum stock with a drill and jig saw or sawzall. Might not be as pretty as a CNC’d part - but could be just as functional. Anyhow - as far as custom parts go - it doesn’t get much simpler than making a motor mount.

Of course there other little parts needed, but most everything else can be adapted from off-the-shelve parts.

There exists technology to make DIY robust battery packs. To make it survive jumps, I don’t think you would need much more than internal cell spacers, spot welded nickel connectors and a bit of foam insulation. Of course, if I were building one, and I intended to jump it, I would seek advice from people who have built and jumped them first. If someone isn’t up to the task of researching and building a pack - it would not be very difficult to find someone with experience building packs to build one for you.

I understand the ASI controller is highly water-resistant, and it would not take a tremendous effort to make it even more water resistant and of course to use industry standard water-proof connectors.

Of course there are other costs and it would take one’s time to do a conversion. I never suggested otherwise.
Grantmac wrote:
Aug 05 2019 11:58am
I think it likely you could rebuild the gas motor and fuel it, for cheaper than doing an e-conversion and replacing batteries as they wear.
I never suggested that it might be cheaper to rebuild an engine compared to an e-conversion. I only suggested that it could be substantially less expensive than buying a new KTM Freeride. And personally I have absolutely 0 interest in a IC motorbike, but I think it would be very fun and rewarding to do a conversion.

Folks: it was stated by a member that (a) there is “absolutely no reason anymore to build ebikes” and (b) “will never match the quality of the Sur-Ron”.

I simply don’t agree with either of those claims. There are plenty of good reasons why people are building ebikes, and if you start with something like a KTM, the build quality of the vehicle itself is much better than a Sur-Ron.

I really wasn’t trying to make any other points.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Aug 05 2019 7:38pm

madin88 wrote:
Aug 05 2019 3:59am
3DTOPO wrote:
Aug 04 2019 7:05pm
Offroader wrote:
Aug 04 2019 8:12am
I don't see why anyone would convert a 250 KTM when they can get that.
Because people can find a steal of a deal on used bikes - particularly if it needs a new engine. If one manages to get a bike for a steal - then converting it to electric can cost perhaps half of what a KTM Freeride costs.
Used gas bikes can be found for cheap yes thats for sure, but if you wanna convert one you certainly have to design and fabricate many customs parts like a mounting bracket for the motor, battery case, CNC parts etc. Build a battery, do the wiring (BMS) and everything.
Then there is the question: will it be robust enough so that i can do jumps without damaging the battery? Can i ride in rain with it?
So aside from the cost for the electrical parts alone there are many other costs and hours you need to count.
This is how I feel also, its very time consuming to do anything yourself. Even changing the brake calipers takes hours to do. This is partly because you don't do this work often so you waste a lot of time figuring things out.

I know from working on these bikes the hours you can put into building them and even doing small tasks takes a long time. Even building a battery can easily take you 20-30+ hours. Time is money, and since I'm working now I would much rather just pay for something then spend hours.

It was fun and a great learning experience when you had no choice but to custom build ebikes, but those days are over now. When you can buy a bike like the Sur-Ron for only $3500 bucks, not worth custom building anything anymore in my opinion.
Last edited by Offroader on Aug 05 2019 7:47pm, edited 1 time in total.

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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Aug 05 2019 7:44pm

Some people enjoy working on things. It's often what they like to do when not working. Think it's like a hobby or something.

True you can just buy something, but often it is more rewarding to build something yourself. An added bonus is you might get what you want from the beginning without complaining about "sucky" controllers and battery packs.

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Offroader   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Aug 05 2019 7:57pm

The way I feel is I don't want to build something that can be purchased. If you think about it, the reason humans have such wealth is we mass produce things at extreme efficiency.

For example if you had to build your own car from scratch, you would spend probably 10-20 years building it. You could also just work for 6 months and buy a car that was mass produced.

Unless I'm building a prototype or improving on a design, I believe it is wasteful to spend your time building something that could be purchased. Unless of course you have fun doing this, but your time would probably be more productive doing something else.

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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Aug 05 2019 8:04pm

You can't buy an electric KTM in a 125 size. :wink:

But people are enjoying building them and ultimately have a superior vehicle to the Sur Ron.

Besides, hobbies aren't necessary meant to be more productive than working. They are often pursued for the enjoyment of the endeavor and rewarded in non-monetary ways.

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Merlin   1 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Merlin » Aug 05 2019 8:13pm

so you f-u-ck only for productivity? everything else would be time wasting ;P

surron is a base. thats all. if this base is enough for someone. great, be happy.

when you would test a stock surron without seeing anything compared to an upgraded surron (handlebar,wheels,tires,brakes,controller,battery,suspension)

i would be surprised that ANYONE would choose a stock surron.

i wouldnt build ever a bike when it would fit my needs. but theres no stock bike with "perfekt" out of the box.
...simply because its not economical for a series production putting only top notch parts that nobody will buy/pay.

isnt it in all areas of what you can buy?

computers, laptops, speakers, cars and of course bikes? a more or less good base where enough room for "upgrades"...

working on a bike can be fun and i wouldnt say its time wasting.
ya right...switching a moto tire with a heavy rear hub is some of the things i would pay for :lol:
but building what you like (except of wasting money) makes me happy. =)

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Offroader   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Aug 05 2019 9:47pm

I would only build something if I was improving on the design, so that is different. This is why I upgraded the brakes, throttle, and fork on my Sur-Ron and will get a new controller. This is really just changing already built parts.

I mean building something like a frame or modifying a frame, building a battery.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Grantmac » Aug 05 2019 10:34pm

Oh I'm totally onboard with DIY and indeed I'm in the design phase of doing a 15kw build on a CRF150RB frame.

For me the Sur-Ron is kind of a pointless object. I can't use it on MTB trails and it lacks the performance to run with motorcycles where they are legal.

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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Aug 05 2019 10:36pm

Offroader wrote:
Aug 05 2019 9:47pm
I would only build something if I was improving on the design, so that is different.
Uhhh isn't converting an IC to electric improving the design? :roll:
Offroader wrote:
Aug 05 2019 9:47pm
I mean building something like a frame or modifying a frame, building a battery.
Since you are rich you could just hire someone to build a battery for you. In fact, you could hire someone to do an entire conversion for since you have more money than time.

If you are going to replace the controller and battery (new controller won't do much without a different battery), along with the other modifications you've made, you might have gotten what you ultimately want for less - and in a higher quality bike. :wink:

Let's see:
$3900: Stock Sur Ron X
$3,000?: Two forks
$500: Saint Breaks
$794+: ASI 4000
$1,850: Battery
________________________
$10,044

Yup.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Lelandjt » Aug 06 2019 2:09am

I've got another Sur-ron on the way and this one will come with the 3rd gen X-controller with regen. Does anyone with a 2nd gen non-regen X-controller want to trade?

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Aug 06 2019 2:17am

Lite Speed Bikes (usa) is offering a drop in 72V 30AH battery upgrade for surron..

(but I recommended to store and charge it outdoors..)

Image

Image

https://litespeedbikes.mybigcommerce.com/72v-30ah/

"Rebuild of surron battery pack.

Surron upgrade battery pack.

20s10p Samsung 30q cells

200amp continuous pack, over 300amp peak

Bluetooth BMS for charging with 4 temp sensors.

Approx 1 week lead time from receipt of old battery pack.

Warranty:*Disclaimer Lite Speed Bikes LLC is not responsible for any accidents, fire outbreak, explosions or any kind of injury and damage to your bikes due to the use of our batteries and products. Please take all necessary precaution with the use of our products. 1 year warranty on battery non physical damage only.."

litespeedbike.com
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

bionicon   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by bionicon » Aug 06 2019 2:21am

i think all surron dealers should sell frames only. With the frame you have a good diy base😀

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Aug 06 2019 2:23am

I agree:) until then Aebikes au sells surron frames and parts..
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Joachim » Aug 06 2019 4:04am

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Aug 06 2019 2:17am
Lite Speed Bikes (usa) is offering a drop in 72V 30AH battery upgrade for surron..

(but I recommended to store and charge it outdoors..)

Image

Image

https://litespeedbikes.mybigcommerce.com/72v-30ah/

"Rebuild of surron battery pack.

Surron upgrade battery pack.

20s10p Samsung 30q cells

200amp continuous pack, over 300amp peak

Bluetooth BMS for charging with 4 temp sensors.

Approx 1 week lead time from receipt of old battery pack.

Warranty:*Disclaimer Lite Speed Bikes LLC is not responsible for any accidents, fire outbreak, explosions or any kind of injury and damage to your bikes due to the use of our batteries and products. Please take all necessary precaution with the use of our products. 1 year warranty on battery non physical damage only.."

litespeedbike.com
battery, make with other cells and earn money without giving guarantees ?? this does not make any sense and it appears that the company does not have much faith in itself haha ​​.. in Europe this is really not possible, nobody buys anything from you or lets you do something if you do not give a guarantee. very special also that use is made of a samsung cell that can have a maximum peak (so not continuous) 15Ampere release(so 10Px15A max 150A)and the bms allow 200 to 300A! understand that you do not want to give a guarantee. datasheet/specs https://www.nkon.nl/rechargeable/18650- ... 00mah.html

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Aug 06 2019 5:16am

anyone else selling drop in battery upgrade for surron market, lets make list by country.. I'm guessing Allex and others make them as well??
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by sYnSBG » Aug 06 2019 5:32am

Merlin wrote:
Aug 04 2019 7:57pm
The e-KTM is pretty nice Offroad bike. And yup. That's quality wise some steps above. Funny videos online it's waterproof for 30min fully under water. :p

Did you checked latest price for freeride-E?

7650€... Latest 2019 model new. (+4 year battery rent 600€/year)
Thats 10k at the end ("only")
I wish I could testride it on ugly Offroad terrain. Since years on my screen :p

As mentioned before.. Most "men" are not happy with stock power /parts and upgraded you hit easy above 6k.(surron)

I don't want to think about lmx guys buyed for full 7800 :confused: :lol:


Beside that... Offroader is right. You can't diy build and compete with oem.
bought a used 2016 E SX with 50hours for 4.5k ez xD

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Allex   1 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » Aug 06 2019 5:48am

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Aug 06 2019 5:16am
anyone else selling drop in battery upgrade for surron market, lets make list by country.. I'm guessing Allex and others make them as well??
Will offer both batteries and controllers, but might take a while. Not in a mood right now =)
Last edited by Allex on Aug 07 2019 3:04am, edited 1 time in total.

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