Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by neptronix » Aug 14 2019 7:40pm

Cowardlyduck wrote:
Aug 14 2019 6:12pm
So anyway, I think you should seriously consider an internal battery cause it would solve all your issues...and also cause I want to see someone else try it. :)
Interesting. I thought maybe yours was a bit wider and it was easier to play with.
I've never built a battery before and am a bit hesitant to build my first one for this bike. I have a bunch of various batteries lying around that need to get utilized. Gonna try those first.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by neptronix » Aug 14 2019 7:48pm

amberwolf wrote:
Aug 14 2019 7:23pm
What about offsetting the pack to the left to clear the chain? If it will still clear your legs and cranks, it won't change the handling significantly, and the change it does make you'll easily and quickly get used to.
I thought about doing exactly that, and putting the controller ( likely my phaserunner ) and wiring on the other side to help counterbalance the weight. Not ideal, but it would work in a bottom mount configuration.

Maybe if i raised the battery pack a bit, i could clear the chain up front, and also my monster size calves.

Time to go experiment.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by neptronix » Aug 16 2019 10:54am

Just a chuckle i found via the tachyon labs page. Someone made an oil tanker fairing to protest Chevron. Kinda funny to me because a recumbent with a fairing in itself is a great path off of oil dependency.
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I'd guess that the rider exits out the back by untying the one large panel. Makes for an easy and simple construction. Color me inspired!
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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thundercamel   100 W

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by thundercamel » Aug 16 2019 11:04am

Ha! Forward visibility seems to suffer slightly though :P
My Ebike builds - Existing bikes, affordable motor kits, self built 14s6p batteries - Now with more recumbent!

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by neptronix » Aug 16 2019 12:31pm

Yeah, i wouldn't ride with a fairing like that more than once. But it's the basis for some interesting ideas.. how about something like that with a lower front, a windscreen up top, and a door that you can lock and unlock?
I think i'm gonna harvest some more wild urban cloroplast after work..


Anyway, i'm inspired to start building the geared hub-based mid drive for this bike. Realized that it should be hanging at the bottom front of the bike, not the top. So i ordered the upgraded seat sliders, and the mid drive, which will be very much a poor man's stoke monkey kit, will inherit the OE seat sliders, as they'll only need to hold maybe 30ft-lbs of torque, versus my 200lbs :mrgreen:

Image
mid-drive-1.jpg
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Turns out i can't put the rear geared hub as forwards as i'd like without modifying the axle, because the crank collides with the end of the axle. I suspect i could cut the axles short and use a very narrow bolt to mount it to the sliding plate system, and mount it as forwards as it will go.

The first mid drive will be built out of ordinary steel plate as a means to test the concept, then i'll have the plates made out of aluminum. And the 3lbs YTW-06 + plates should add up to 5lbs on the front end. Anything helps!

As for the battery..

I think i have the hailong pack mounting sorted. I'm going to experiment with the seat position ( can i handle going forward a bit more? ), but in the seat's current position, if i mount the battery in parallel with the seat back, the battery's weight would be a little bit ahead of the axle, so it will at least help the weight balance problem a bit. :thumb: I just have to make some kind of plate to mount it to, side supports, etc.
battery-mount.jpg
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"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by neptronix » Aug 17 2019 12:33am

battery-mount-2.jpg
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Here's the battery in reality. Not bad, i eyeballed it pretty well.
I'm a tiny smidge more forward than i like though, so after moving back a hair i bet the weight is more towards neutral :/

I picked up some super flat pedals for now, so that i can move forward 4-8mm: https://www.ebay.com/itm/322932836409

Every lb i can get ahead of the axle.. i will!


I fetched some cloroplast yard signs and the yard sign mounts, cuz a big event ended 2 days ago and they left them littering the 'urbs.

Made the beginnings of a tail fairing. I'm told that this is good for a couple mph speed increase, so i'm kinda stoked.
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It needs to be duct taped and painted and adjusted a bit more, but yeah. I also have to come up with some kind of mechanism for makes attaching/detatching it easy.
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If i can make pedaling the bike more pleasant by using super flat pedals, i'll modify the shape a bit so that it fits around the battery, because it would be great to have the battery back there, especially if it was in the pictured location, and helped forward weight balance :)
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by qwerkus » Aug 18 2019 4:16am

The main frame beam looks like nice cro-mo steel. If that's true, I'd suggest welding jobs to solve most of your issues, like relocating the steering tube to allow a suspension fork, and add some mountings for a battery. If you feel crafty, you can even go for a hollow central beam, and hide the cells there. In that case, I'd go stainless.

EDIT: Saw a video somewhere with frame details. Definitely alu. Makes modding more difficult. If you still want to mod the clearance and angle for the steering tube, you can try cutting it away, and bolt-on some extension made of steel, with a tube at a different angle.

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by neptronix » Aug 18 2019 6:50pm

Man, it's not a strong enough frame to be cutting up and drilling holes in, to be honest. It's a ~33lbs bike, which is pretty light considering how long it is, plus the fact that chromoly ( generally a bit heavier ) is used in the swingarm and headtube. The main tube is super light..

I think another 4mm or so of space should get me to a comfortable pedaling zone. I'm just off by a hair. I'll get that battery on the back if it kills me..
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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tigcross   100 W

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by tigcross » Aug 19 2019 11:19pm

Hey Neptronix,
I just caught up with this thread. I like your determination.
Your experience with the difficulty of retrofiring an existing recumbent to electric confirms one of my main reasons for starting the Electrom project: That existing recumbent frames out there are not and adequate for high-power and high-speed e-bikes and we need to start from scratch to make the best e-recumbent possible.

keep pushing the limits.

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by qwerkus » Aug 20 2019 7:09am

neptronix wrote:
Aug 18 2019 6:50pm
I'll get that battery on the back if it kills me..
Scary...

There are a few simpler solutions. Hailong packs are quite wide indeed (90mm), and frankly not very good. So-called silverfish battery case come in a wide range of shapes. They are made of sturdy aluminum, and once you replace the crappy plastic endings by simple 3mm aluminium plates, they become quite decent. Some vendor offer to cut you the body part to custom length so in the standart 110*75mm type, if you chose 300mm length, you can put over a hundred cells easily...

Image

My latest discovery is this ultra-simple case:

Image

Basically only a plastic box formed to size, but only 72mm wide and you can still fit 52 cells inside. There is also a 6p version available. I'm trying to find out if there is enough space left inside to fit a decent bms, but due to communication issues I think I'll just have to buy one and test it myself. Also, sealing and especially closing the box could become problematic, though I'd use it as an alternative to shrinkwrap, to protect cells inside a bag.

If nothing helps, there is always my favorite chinese battery supplier: http://www.unitpackpower.com/goods/26.html
Quite expensive, so I won't get my packs there, but they list nearly all available chinese battery shapes on their website... with dimensions! So you can just browse through the list, and pick a model that fit your requirements, and than get the case only over ebay/ali.

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by neptronix » Aug 20 2019 4:50pm

Very interesting. re-casing the battery did surely come to mind.. thanks for doing some footwork for me :bolt:
Will investigate when i get some brain juice back.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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The Toecutter   10 kW

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by The Toecutter » Aug 23 2019 1:00am

Getting a tail fairing by itself to reduce drag is a lot trickier than it looks. You have to consider the entire shape of rider + bike as a complete system, and it will be a constantly changing shape as you are pedaling it. You will need a high end CFD program to model that one.

Here's some simple coroplast tail faring designs to draw inspiration from:

http://recumbents.com/wisil/tailbox/bar ... ailbox.htm

They may or may not work and you will need to find a hill that you can coast down from a stop without pedaling to find peak speed reached(and compare to results without the tailbox), in order to determine if it has resulted in a reduction in drag.

Here's another topic of an individual designing a ducted tailbox that may be of interest:

http://bentrideronline.com/messageboard ... p?t=147595

I'd recommend you plan on eventually making a full streamliner fairing if you're after maximum efficiency, like the one linked below:

http://recumbents.com/wisil/pauljones/

And this page was especially handy for getting an idea of how to scale various shapes to fit your frame:

http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/scale_p ... liners.htm

A CdA on the order of 0.10 m^2 is possible with your bike using coroplast. Imagine only needing 250W to do 30 mph and approaching 40 mph on a flat ground sprint completely under your own power! You could get quite some range on not a whole lot of battery with the right shape.

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by neptronix » Aug 23 2019 7:18pm

Just a quick update before i get back to the rest of replies..

The SMS space saver pedals are installed, and yeah, i got some extra millmeters of pedal space cleared up, so that's rad.
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The aftermarket seat rail holders came from bicycle man. Wooooweee, i love how overbuilt these are. Fantastic! :mrgreen:
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"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Aquakitty   100 W

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by Aquakitty » Aug 24 2019 12:00am

Neat project! I have a Rans Enduro Sport SWB I put a mid-drive on. While the Bike-E is a CLWB it's kind of similar in geometry. I ended up with a rack battery on mine as it was the easiest solution. I have had some big loads on it and no problems yet, aside from being a tad squirrly but SWB usually are anyways. I feel like I'm on a mini rocket ship powering around on it.
Rans Enduro Sport w/Sturmey-Archer XFRD8, TSDZ2 open source mod 48v
GT Verb Comp f/s TSDZ2 open source 48v
Diadora Ampio bargain f/s TSDZ2 48v
2020 Diamant 247 belt drive 1000w 9C 48v
Hardtail made from random bits I had laying around, ginormous old Marzocchi fork, BBS02

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by neptronix » Aug 24 2019 10:01am

Aquakitty wrote:
Aug 24 2019 12:00am
Neat project! I have a Rans Enduro Sport SWB I put a mid-drive on. While the Bike-E is a CLWB it's kind of similar in geometry. I ended up with a rack battery on mine as it was the easiest solution. I have had some big loads on it and no problems yet, aside from being a tad squirrly but SWB usually are anyways. I feel like I'm on a mini rocket ship powering around on it.
Cool. Do you have a build thread?

Riding in a mini rocket ship is a good way to describe riding a recumbent. I think of my cannondale recumbent as more of a boat because of the super smooshy dual suspension and very smooshy supportive seat. I feel less like i am riding it, and more like it is taking me for a ride.

The bikeE is much less serene because are not so disconnected from what's happening with the front end. But still very enjoyable.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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