How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

SquidBonez said:

furcifer said:

I think it's also safe to assume that any flashing the company doesn't authorize will void the warranty. That's going to put a damper on things me thinks.

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Flashing usually voids the warranty on ICE cars anyway, plus I doubt people looking to seriously modify their car are worried about warranty.

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It does, but from my experience they don't have the means to detect a flash unless you tell them or leave the module in during service. Tesla on the other hand seems to know exactly what you've done. I expect most companies will have the same level of understanding when it comes to electric cars. And it's only going to get more secure. Comparing EPROM's from the past to electric cars of the future doesn't follow for me.

I think the one mistake I'm making is assuming electric cars in the future will be as "unreliable" as electric devices are today. It's likely people will become as familiar and trusting of electrics as they are of ICE's today. But I'd also point out electrics seem more integrated than ICE's. To be quite frank, I can fix any mechanical problem on my ICE car but I hate dealing with electrical. Give me a blown head gasket over a random electrical short any day. So I'm a little biased

furcifer said:

To be quite frank, I can fix any mechanical problem on my ICE car but I hate dealing with electrical. Give me a blown head gasket over a random electrical short any day. So I'm a little biased

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That's the traditional problem people have. I have a problem with the cranking. Putting in the new starter myself didn't solve it, taking it to the shop gave me a few months but it came back.

We used to bear so much about the problems with a Tesla. I wonder what the story is today.

In California you can register. A 25mph electric but you can't drive it much of anywhere because it can't go on roads above 35mph. Most people will never learn to be good drivers and deal properly. We have these fool traffic circles here and people committing violations honk at legal drivers.

Dauntless said:

furcifer said:

To be quite frank, I can fix any mechanical problem on my ICE car but I hate dealing with electrical. Give me a blown head gasket over a random electrical short any day. So I'm a little biased

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That's the traditional problem people have. I have a problem with the cranking. Putting in the new starter myself didn't solve it, taking it to the shop gave me a few months but it came back.

We used to bear so much about the problems with a Tesla. I wonder what the story is today.

In California you can register. A 25mph electric but you can't drive it much of anywhere because it can't go on roads above 35mph. Most people will never learn to be good drivers and deal properly. We have these fool traffic circles here and people committing violations honk at legal drivers.

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Well it's reassuring to know it's not just around here. Yesterday someone laid on their horn because I was crowding them in the lane. They were on the wrong side of the road of course but obviously I should be close to the curb so cars can drive wherever they want.

furcifer said:

billvon said:

Of course it makes sense. My first car (a Leaf) did just that. It limited motor output to protect the battery from overcurrent.

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I would say just because they did it doesn't mean it makes sense. I would put forth that the engineers only had the one motor to work with and it's a work around.

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Tuning nearly always involves erroding the design margins on components to trade reliability and service life for Mo Powah. The engineers whomade the car don't necessarily leave much on the table, they design a part that will last 10-12 years and 200,000+ miles in all foreseeable service conditions. If you're happy to run something hotter or harder than the limit that gives that expected life then you can squeeze out more performance - you're just putting yourself on a different part of the component life curve.

The way heat buildup and accumulative wear work also means you can get away with occasionally briefly running a component very hard i.e. a drag race but the manufacturer cannot allow this level of utilisation because they usually can't control how long or often a user would actually do it. The only exception I can think of is over-boost on some turbocharged engines (like Ford Ecoboost) where higher boost is permitted but only for 10 seconds at a time.

furcifer said:

SquidBonez said:

furcifer said:

I think it's also safe to assume that any flashing the company doesn't authorize will void the warranty. That's going to put a damper on things me thinks.

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Flashing usually voids the warranty on ICE cars anyway, plus I doubt people looking to seriously modify their car are worried about warranty.

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It does, but from my experience they don't have the means to detect a flash unless you tell them or leave the module in during service. Tesla on the other hand seems to know exactly what you've done. I expect most companies will have the same level of understanding when it comes to electric cars. And it's only going to get more secure. Comparing EPROM's from the past to electric cars of the future doesn't follow for me.

I think the one mistake I'm making is assuming electric cars in the future will be as "unreliable" as electric devices are today. It's likely people will become as familiar and trusting of electrics as they are of ICE's today. But I'd also point out electrics seem more integrated than ICE's. To be quite frank, I can fix any mechanical problem on my ICE car but I hate dealing with electrical. Give me a blown head gasket over a random electrical short any day. So I'm a little biased

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I don't know about that, my grandfather worked at Nissan and they caught a guy with a GTR who said he never touched the powertrain and turns out he flashed a tune on it and reverted it back to stock before taking it in. No idea how they caught him. But again, even if manufacturers get better with catching people like that, warranty is rarely a make or break deal for a tuner. And we're only talking about new cars that are still under warranty. What about the thousands of old 1st gen Leafs on the road? Nothing is stopping some tuner who wants to turn his econobox into a ripper.

As for working on them, electric cars will be accepted when they're around longer. People will start tearing them down and learning how they work, how to get more power, etc, just like the hot-rodders of the 1950s. Plus repairs will be a lot less frequent anyway given the inherent low maintenance of electric drive trains. Sure, there is a danger to working with high voltage systems, but people work on their Pruises today with no problem. That's why they have battery disconnects.

The first company to engineer a rear engined kit car that accepts a Leaf donor will be onto something. Like the Factory Five 818:
https://www.factoryfive.com/818/
Half the weight, none of the traction issues plus a tuned controller could make for a pile of fun.

SquidBonez said:

I don't know about that, my grandfather worked at Nissan and they caught a guy with a GTR who said he never touched the powertrain and turns out he flashed a tune on it and reverted it back to stock before taking it in. No idea how they caught him. But again, even if manufacturers get better with catching people like that, warranty is rarely a make or break deal for a tuner. And we're only talking about new cars that are still under warranty. What about the thousands of old 1st gen Leafs on the road? Nothing is stopping some tuner who wants to turn his econobox into a ripper.

As for working on them, electric cars will be accepted when they're around longer. People will start tearing them down and learning how they work, how to get more power, etc, just like the hot-rodders of the 1950s. Plus repairs will be a lot less frequent anyway given the inherent low maintenance of electric drive trains. Sure, there is a danger to working with high voltage systems, but people work on their Pruises today with no problem. That's why they have battery disconnects.

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Well yes, but I think you're talking about extremes. I would say most people looking for performance parts for their new car don't want to void the warranty.

Plus I think you're underestimating what it takes to properly program a controller so that you don't blow up the motor. It's my understanding that it takes a lot of research to get throttle response, traction, braking etc. to work properly. Are you going to spend time and money to do the research so that 10 seconds later it's on the internet for anyone to use? I highly doubt it.

And again I can't stress this enough, hot rodding is about improving engine efficiency. Electric engines are already extremely efficient. Even if you could make it more efficient, it would be a lot of work for very little gain.

As for the Leaf motor, my understanding is people pull them out and use them for something else. The car can barely handle the torque it generates at start-up as it is. Which brings me back to my point, if the motor can handle more power the company will build the car themselves and program it for more power and sell it for more money.

It's the torque curve of electric motors that will be the downfall of performance tuning. It's backwards, you have a monster motor that wants to tear apart the car at 0-1mph so you have to design for that right out of the gate. The rest is easy. All you can really do is stick the wheels to the ground and if you do that maybe keep it cool.

Incidentally, when you brought up the Leaf I happened to find the NISMO performance package for the Leaf is basically an aero kit and bigger wheels. So,basically exactly what I've been saying

Punx0r said:

Tuning nearly always involves erroding the design margins on components to trade reliability and service life for Mo Powah. The engineers whomade the car don't necessarily leave much on the table, they design a part that will last 10-12 years and 200,000+ miles in all foreseeable service conditions. If you're happy to run something hotter or harder than the limit that gives that expected life then you can squeeze out more performance - you're just putting yourself on a different part of the component life curve.

The way heat buildup and accumulative wear work also means you can get away with occasionally briefly running a component very hard i.e. a drag race but the manufacturer cannot allow this level of utilisation because they usually can't control how long or often a user would actually do it. The only exception I can think of is over-boost on some turbocharged engines (like Ford Ecoboost) where higher boost is permitted but only for 10 seconds at a time.

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Sure but like I was sayin, the longevity curve is really based on stop/starts not top speed. I only way I can think you would need to do these mods would be if you were going to do an endurance race. If you ran a Cannonball and wanted to run flat out for a long time I guess it might make sense. Even then, you'd have to figure out if it's the most efficient way. If you have to stop and charge more often it might not be worth it.

furcifer said:

Well yes, but I think you're talking about extremes. I would say most people looking for performance parts for their new car don't want to void the warranty.

Plus I think you're underestimating what it takes to properly program a controller so that you don't blow up the motor. It's my understanding that it takes a lot of research to get throttle response, traction, braking etc. to work properly. Are you going to spend time and money to do the research so that 10 seconds later it's on the internet for anyone to use? I highly doubt it.

And again I can't stress this enough, hot rodding is about improving engine efficiency. Electric engines are already extremely efficient. Even if you could make it more efficient, it would be a lot of work for very little gain.

As for the Leaf motor, my understanding is people pull them out and use them for something else. The car can barely handle the torque it generates at start-up as it is. Which brings me back to my point, if the motor can handle more power the company will build the car themselves and program it for more power and sell it for more money.

It's the torque curve of electric motors that will be the downfall of performance tuning. It's backwards, you have a monster motor that wants to tear apart the car at 0-1mph so you have to design for that right out of the gate. The rest is easy. All you can really do is stick the wheels to the ground and if you do that maybe keep it cool.

Incidentally, when you brought up the Leaf I happened to find the NISMO performance package for the Leaf is basically an aero kit and bigger wheels. So,basically exactly what I've been saying

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"Well yes, but I think you're talking about extremes. I would say most people looking for performance parts for their new car don't want to void the warranty. "

That's not even extremes. Exhausts, flashes, and intakes can and do void warranties - ALL of which are very basic modifications. I'm not sure how much time you've spent around people who modify their cars, but warranties usually only either A: temporarily stop them until they run out or B: are completely disregarded. And that's just on new cars. What about when all those old Leafs or Teslas are 15 years old and cheap and waaaaay out of warranty? Nobody will care about voiding a warranty then.

"Plus I think you're underestimating what it takes to properly program a controller so that you don't blow up the motor. It's my understanding that it takes a lot of research to get throttle response, traction, braking etc. to work properly. Are you going to spend time and money to do the research so that 10 seconds later it's on the internet for anyone to use? I highly doubt it."

They already do today. Those reflashes for ICE cars? They're created by tuning companies who spend months testing cars on dynos to get the right parameters. That's how they make their living. The difficult work is done by the tuning specialists who then sell their tuning devices to the consumer, and all the consumer has to do (essentially) is plug it into their ECU. They've been doing it for almost as long as cars have had OBDII ports.

"And again I can't stress this enough, hot rodding is about improving engine efficiency. Electric engines are already extremely efficient. Even if you could make it more efficient, it would be a lot of work for very little gain."

No it is not. If you put a supercharger on a car, the car doesn't become more efficient - but it does produce more power. Likewise to an electric motor. We aren't talking about improving efficiency, we're talking about discharging more power from the battery faster. In fact, like a normal ICE car, it's probably less efficient but is of course more powerful. Long story short, you aren't getting more efficient, you're trading power for range.

"As for the Leaf motor, my understanding is people pull them out and use them for something else. The car can barely handle the torque it generates at start-up as it is. Which brings me back to my point, if the motor can handle more power the company will build the car themselves and program it for more power and sell it for more money."

OR a tuner will simply buy a reflash to program the car and get more power out of the car that way. Which is my point.

"It's the torque curve of electric motors that will be the downfall of performance tuning. It's backwards, you have a monster motor that wants to tear apart the car at 0-1mph so you have to design for that right out of the gate. The rest is easy. All you can really do is stick the wheels to the ground and if you do that maybe keep it cool."

Not every electric car is a Tesla. Not every electric car is fast from the factory. Not every car is as fast as it could be. This applies to ICE cars as well. Tuners will always want to improve a car to go faster, and yes, that means even more torque, power, and possibly higher RPMs if possible. Doesn't matter that electric motors have a unique torque curve. That has nothing to do with whether or not people will tune them. People are already doing it with Zero motorcycles which are by all means torque monsters stock, and getting even more torque than usual:
https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/zero/the-life-electric-next-gen-hot-rodding-video.html

"Incidentally, when you brought up the Leaf I happened to find the NISMO performance package for the Leaf is basically an aero kit and bigger wheels. So,basically exactly what I've been saying"

It's aero, wheels, AND a software program. Again, my point. See here:
https://electrek.co/2018/07/19/nissan-leaf-nismo-specs-launch-sale/
From Nissan: "The custom tuning computer in the Nissan LEAF NISMO allows for a delicate but strong acceleration response. This results in comfortable driving on both city streets and winding roads."
Even listed under the new features for the Leaf NISMO is "Custom tuning computer VCM"

Which goes back to my main point. Here is a (albeit, factory supplied) software enhancement to a car that is otherwise identical powertrain wise to the base model. It is therefore likley that aftermarket companies could tune these VCMs for the same affect, very similar to the ECU of an ICE car.

SquidBonez said:

That's not even extremes. Exhausts, flashes, and intakes can and do void warranties - ALL of which are very basic modifications. I'm not sure how much time you've spent around people who modify their cars, but warranties usually only either A: temporarily stop them until they run out or B: are completely disregarded. And that's just on new cars. What about when all those old Leafs or Teslas are 15 years old and cheap and waaaaay out of warranty? Nobody will care about voiding a warranty then.

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But the potential isn't there. Again, because you're dealing with something that's already "tuned" you're talking marginal improvement. It would be like taking a Hellcat off the showroom floor and bringing it to a shop. That's very rare.

SquidBonez said:

They already do today. Those reflashes for ICE cars? They're created by tuning companies who spend months testing cars on dynos to get the right parameters. That's how they make their living. The difficult work is done by the tuning specialists who then sell their tuning devices to the consumer, and all the consumer has to do (essentially) is plug it into their ECU. They've been doing it for almost as long as cars have had OBDII ports.

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I don't think you're reading this. ICE's don't get remapped by the manufacturers BECAUSE OF EMISSIONS CONTROLS. Tesla updates all the time.

Think about it. If you released a remap of a Tesla that was somehow better they would send the remap to every single owner the minute you released it. You don't have proprietary control over their software.
(well maybe not the minute. someone would get a memo and then a team of engineers would go over the changes. it would probably take a few days)

I'd have to say this is possibly the one thing I'm almost certain of.

SquidBonez said:

No it is not. If you put a supercharger on a car, the car doesn't become more efficient - but it does produce more power. Likewise to an electric motor. We aren't talking about improving efficiency, we're talking about discharging more power from the battery faster. In fact, like a normal ICE car, it's probably less efficient but is of course more powerful. Long story short, you aren't getting more efficient, you're trading power for range.

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I think I see where I'm confusing you. You seem to be thinking about fuel efficiency. A VW 2.0L gets 230hp, a Merc 133 2.0L gets 430hp. The Merc is more efficient as using displacement to produce hp. This is what ICE performance tuning does. (boring or other means of increasing displacement would be the exception to this, but I think that's only popular with motorcycles these days)

And that's why I'm saying it's a dead market. You can't add parts to an electric motor like you can an ICE. All you can really do is increase the amount of "fuel" going to it. Imagine if cars were like this, all you needed to do was buy a bigger fuel pump and bigger fuel lines. That's not much of a performance shop! And with electrics it's like the send you the best fuel pump as soon as it comes out.

If you're think about those fuel lines, think again. Because of the way an electric motor works, you basically need massive fuel lines for what amounts to idling in an ICE.

So this is how I think it would play out based on what you're saying. I'm the manufacturer, I put my new model in showrooms. A month later I find some "tuner" has bumped the amp up 10% with no issues. I send out the remap. Everyone's got it. The tuner bums it up 10% again by ripping apart the car and rewiring it. "What's it cost us to run OO instead of O, $2.75 per car. OK, change to OO, call this model a SS, charge the customer $200 per unit and bump it up another 15%"

You see what I'm getting at? It's just too easy for the manufacturer to utilize the motor. I'm trying to think how longevity plays into this, but again electrics aren't like ICE's in that they don't wear like an ICE. Pushing more hp through an ICE tends to cause more wear because of friction and heat. Electrics tend to work, or blow-up. There's probably a few bearings that might need to be bigger, but again it's not that much for bearings.

SquidBonez said:

Not every electric car is a Tesla. Not every electric car is fast from the factory. Not every car is as fast as it could be. This applies to ICE cars as well. Tuners will always want to improve a car to go faster, and yes, that means even more torque, power, and possibly higher RPMs if possible. Doesn't matter that electric motors have a unique torque curve. That has nothing to do with whether or not people will tune them. People are already doing it with Zero motorcycles which are by all means torque monsters stock, and getting even more torque than usual:
https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/zero/the-life-electric-next-gen-hot-rodding-video.html

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Tesla has been around for a blink of an eye and already has the fastest car ever made. The P100D ludicrous does something like 3.2s 0-60.

Everyone is going to be like that once the industry shifts to electric. And it's only going to get better. There's no reason not to. Every manufacturer copies the other. Cars always look the same from year to year, have the same features and options and same basic engines. That's a fact.

This notion that cars aren't going to be made as fast as they can be in the electric era doesn't hold water for me. It's just too easy with electrics. Tesla has proven that already. If Tesla today can put a ludicrious mode in their cars so can everyone else in the future. It's not magic.

SquidBonez said:

Which goes back to my main point. Here is a (albeit, factory supplied) software enhancement to a car that is otherwise identical powertrain wise to the base model. It is therefore likley that aftermarket companies could tune these VCMs for the same affect, very similar to the ECU of an ICE car.

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And the factory will make the exact same if not better changes 10 seconds later. You're comparing it to ICE's but the only reason the manufacturers don't do it themselves is almost always because of EMISSIONS. I'm sure there are wear and tear concerns as well, but as I keep pointing out you really don't have those with electric motors. There's no metal on metal and there's very few connections between moving parts. You got copper, magnets and couple bearings. All you need to do is keep it cool, and again that's usually at start-up.

I'm trying to think about crossing the mountains. You might need some upgrades to the system to maintain the extreme driving modes there. But you have to figure why not just turn if off?

furcifer said:

Sure but like I was sayin, the longevity curve is really based on stop/starts not top speed. I only way I can think you would need to do these mods would be if you were going to do an endurance race. If you ran a Cannonball and wanted to run flat out for a long time I guess it might make sense. Even then, you'd have to figure out if it's the most efficient way. If you have to stop and charge more often it might not be worth it.

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Sustained high speed driving is about the only common way to hold a vehicle at high load for more than a few seconds at a time (unless you're towing a heavy trailer up a mountain).

This is why pretty much all EVs have much lower top speeds than an ICE of the same power. The motor/contoller/battery can burst good peak power, but overheat if asked to sustain it

A stock tesla can't lap the nurburgring because it's motor and battery overheat. A leaf motor could do 5-10x it's rated, stock, power for 10 seconds, but the battery certainly can't.

How many stop/starts in a nascar race or 24hrs of LeMan? How many engine or transmission failures?

Of course someone could "improve" the software settings on a tesla to get more power. But the tesla engineers are unlikely to be surprised and impressed and wouldn't immediately push it as an OTA update because it would almost certainly unacceptably compromise some other parameter. ICE power is not limited just by emissions requirements so EVs are not magically infinitely tunable.

Yes, other EV manufacturers could add a ludicrous mode to their cars. They just need to spend the extra money over-spec'ing every other component in the drivetrain, including gear reduction, shafts, CV joints, brakes, suspension, tyres etc etc. The blistering performance of teslas was an important selling feature but it does come at a cost.

furcifer said:

Think about it. If you released a remap of a Tesla that was somehow better they would send the remap to every single owner the minute you released it. You don't have proprietary control over their software.
(well maybe not the minute. someone would get a memo and then a team of engineers would go over the changes. it would probably take a few days)

I'd have to say this is possibly the one thing I'm almost certain of.

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And I am certain they would NOT do it.

Tesla is currently facing a major lawsuit because they made an OTA change to lengthen battery life that removes apparent range from the battery meter. Think they are going to risk a second one over (say) CV joint failure, or actual range reduction, or an increase in battery failures/fires?

Everything is a tradeoff. The idea that improving power will never have any bad effects on the rest of the car is silly.

Punx0r said:

Sustained high speed driving is about the only common way to hold a vehicle at high load for more than a few seconds at a time (unless you're towing a heavy trailer up a mountain).

This is why pretty much all EVs have much lower top speeds than an ICE of the same power. The motor/contoller/battery can burst good peak power, but overheat if asked to sustain it

A stock tesla can't lap the nurburgring because it's motor and battery overheat. A leaf motor could do 5-10x it's rated, stock, power for 10 seconds, but the battery certainly can't.

How many stop/starts in a nascar race or 24hrs of LeMan? How many engine or transmission failures?

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Well I think that's just it right, I mean you have to build an EV to sustain these brief levels of power. So any EV can be programmed to sustain these levels for a little longer. But you're always going to run the risk of overheating and failure when you do.

So basically an EV comes tuned and with the "chip" built in. They're restricted, not because of the law like ICE's are restricted where there's raw "potential" left on the table, but because of tolerances, safety, longevity etc.

To me this isn't a "performance mod". I think it's much more like driving a stock car with the needle always in the red. Performance is about getting more powah as you say, not beating on your car. Tuners want more speed but they also tend to take very good care of their cars. (until they don't)

So that's why I think I'm right in saying the only real performance mod I see for EV's is aftermarket cooling, weight reduction and drag reduction. Then you can run the peaks that it's designed for, but for longer periods. My gut feeling is that this shouldn't even require rewiring it.

This presumes that batteries remain an integral part of the vehicle. If designed shifted towards a more modular format and you could put in a more powerful battery then my outlook changes slightly. But battery prices would also have to come down in price significantly. Right now they represent such large portion of the vehicle cost you have to think it would just be cheaper to buy the model car that the bigger battery comes in.

billvon said:

And I am certain they would NOT do it.

Tesla is currently facing a major lawsuit because they made an OTA change to lengthen battery life that removes apparent range from the battery meter. Think they are going to risk a second one over (say) CV joint failure, or actual range reduction, or an increase in battery failures/fires?

Everything is a tradeoff. The idea that improving power will never have any bad effects on the rest of the car is silly.

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Well you probably never worked at a car company. Lawsuits and settlements are built into the price of vehicles.

However, I think you're missing my point here. IF any mod is determined to be "better" it can be implemented immediately. If you're running a modded program that the company doesn't decided to use it's because it isn't "better".

This isn't like a restrictor plate or a smaller carb or a fuel map in an ICE. Those have always been a wink and a nod from the engineers and the owners. They know what people do in their own garages is their own business.

Which is basically why I've been saying, unless the government steps in there's no reason to not provide the owners with the full potential of the car. I can see a point in the future where too many people driving 10 second cars on the road becomes a problem and they step in. It's only when the government steps in that you get a thriving underground.

Punx0r said:

Of course someone could "improve" the software settings on a tesla to get more power. But the tesla engineers are unlikely to be surprised and impressed and wouldn't immediately push it as an OTA update because it would almost certainly unacceptably compromise some other parameter. ICE power is not limited just by emissions requirements so EVs are not magically infinitely tunable.

Yes, other EV manufacturers could add a ludicrous mode to their cars. They just need to spend the extra money over-spec'ing every other component in the drivetrain, including gear reduction, shafts, CV joints, brakes, suspension, tyres etc etc. The blistering performance of teslas was an important selling feature but it does come at a cost.

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Totally.

I think the bottle neck in this scenario is the battery. Assuming you're running a ludicrous mode it's probably going to be the limiting factor, not the motor. If the cost of batteries continues to be around 40% of the vehicle price battery swaps aren't going to be a popular modification. Especially if you also have to do gears, brakes shafts etc. as well.

Re-flashing the software is likely to be very difficult without some insider information like the source code. The other approach is hardware hacking. On my old Honda Civic Hybrid I added some divider resistors to the current sensor signal lines (5 of them) and increased the electric boost by a factor of 1.5.
It should be possible to do something similar to most EV inverters. Someday I want to get a used EV and try it. It’s the same thing I’ve done to many bike controllers. Spare parts from the junkyard will become pretty cheap for EV parts.

fechter said:

Spare parts from the junkyard will become pretty cheap for EV parts.

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This is a modification exactly but I was thinking the same thing. A lot of good motors but crappy cars around you could have something like mud bogging or dune racing, where you buy a vehicle, put some huge tires on it, add a small but powerful battery, some thick cables and just dump huge amounts of power into the motor for short periods. Anything brief that requires torque seems like a perfect way to "recycle" all the old motors that will pile up eventually.

furcifer said:

I don't think you're reading this. ICE's don't get remapped by the manufacturers BECAUSE OF EMISSIONS CONTROLS. Tesla updates all the time.

Think about it. If you released a remap of a Tesla that was somehow better they would send the remap to every single owner the minute you released it. You don't have proprietary control over their software.
(well maybe not the minute. someone would get a memo and then a team of engineers would go over the changes. it would probably take a few days)

I'd have to say this is possibly the one thing I'm almost certain of.

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I don't want you to think I'm not reading your responses or that I'm trying to be antagonistic or anything, I just disagree. While ICE cars have to meet emissions standards and EVs don't, that's not the only reason why ICE cars are de-tuned. Another large factor is powertrain wear and engine life. And while EVs are far more reliable, even Tesla warns that using it's Ludicrous mode too many times will lead to, and I quote from Tesla: "accelerated wear of the motor, gearbox, and battery." That being said, Teslas are de-tuned not to meet emissions standards obviously, but as a way to extend the life of the powertrain, and extend the range. A tuner understands that modifying a car for better performance inherently makes it less reliable, but a manufacture wants to sell a car that lasts a long time. So no, they aren't always programmed as best as they could be performance wise - they are programmed to strike a balance between reliability, range, and performance.

furcifer said:

I think I see where I'm confusing you. You seem to be thinking about fuel efficiency. A VW 2.0L gets 230hp, a Merc 133 2.0L gets 430hp. The Merc is more efficient as using displacement to produce hp. This is what ICE performance tuning does. (boring or other means of increasing displacement would be the exception to this, but I think that's only popular with motorcycles these days)

And that's why I'm saying it's a dead market. You can't add parts to an electric motor like you can an ICE. All you can really do is increase the amount of "fuel" going to it. Imagine if cars were like this, all you needed to do was buy a bigger fuel pump and bigger fuel lines. That's not much of a performance shop! And with electrics it's like the send you the best fuel pump as soon as it comes out.

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You are correct in saying there is less to modify on an EV, but that doesn't mean it's a dead market. I know some people on this forum were machining the motors of their Zero motorcycles and swapping out the stock controllers to get more power. And in the future one could imagine higher-discharge battery module replacements. Sure a manufacturer could come in and begin selling their vehicle with these modifications as standard after tuners start doing it like you said (funnily enough Zero did exactly that and upgraded their controllers after tuners were swapping them out) but not every modification is practical to sell. Again, reliability vs performance and all that. Plus, not everybody is buying a new car, or the highest trim level of a car. For example, let's use a hypothetical ICE car. The old version of the car comes standard with an open differential and is naturally aspirated while the new, premium model has a limited slip diff and a turbo. I may only have the old model, but I could buy a new diff and a turbo kit to upgrade the car myself rather than simply buying an entirely new car. Same concept with an electric car. I could buy an old Gen 1 Leaf, swap out some components and make a more powerful car out of it than even the newest generation Leaf. I know they guy who built the Teslonda has experience with modifying Leafs (more specifically, swapping out the stock inverter). Point is not all modifications are done to new cars. There are still people out there modifying 90s Civics, and in the future there will be people modifying 1st gen Leafs. It doesn't matter if the manufacturer releases a new version of the car, people will modify what they already have.

furcifer said:

Tesla has been around for a blink of an eye and already has the fastest car ever made. The P100D ludicrous does something like 3.2s 0-60.

Everyone is going to be like that once the industry shifts to electric. And it's only going to get better. There's no reason not to. Every manufacturer copies the other. Cars always look the same from year to year, have the same features and options and same basic engines. That's a fact.

This notion that cars aren't going to be made as fast as they can be in the electric era doesn't hold water for me. It's just too easy with electrics. Tesla has proven that already. If Tesla today can put a ludicrious mode in their cars so can everyone else in the future. It's not magic.

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Back to my point of not every car being a Tesla. Yes, Teslas are extremely quick (2.3 sec 0-60, only beat by the Dodge Demon which is essentially a manufacturer-built race car), but speed costs money. This is something that holds true even with electric cars. I have no doubt in my mind that performance will continue to increase as electrification takes place but there will still be slow cars, commuter cars, entry level sports cars, etc. Not every car is going to be capable of 0-60 in under 3 seconds. Not every car will get a "ludicrous mode". Not every car will have 600 horsepower. There will still be cars like the Nissan Leaf that aren't particularly fast. The "average" 0-60 times of cars will likley drop overall, but not every car is going to be a Tesla. But let's say that every car does end up being like a Tesla, all capable of 0-60 in 2.3 seconds. Guess what? There is still going to be a market for the guy looking to do 0-60 in 2 seconds, or 1.9 seconds. The Electric GT Championship series is using modified P100Ds, which are about half a second quicker than stock and have 778 horsepower - a significant bump up from before. People always want more, even if they already have a lot.

furcifer said:

And the factory will make the exact same if not better changes 10 seconds later. You're comparing it to ICE's but the only reason the manufacturers don't do it themselves is almost always because of EMISSIONS. I'm sure there are wear and tear concerns as well, but as I keep pointing out you really don't have those with electric motors. There's no metal on metal and there's very few connections between moving parts. You got copper, magnets and couple bearings. All you need to do is keep it cool, and again that's usually at start-up.

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Like I said there's still wear to consider with an EV. Gearbox, differentials, batteries that get shorter and shorter lifespans as they get too hot/discharge too quickly, axles, bearings, etc.

Think about it. If you released a remap of a Tesla that was somehow better they would send the remap to every single owner the minute you released it. You don't have proprietary control over their software.
(well maybe not the minute. someone would get a memo and then a team of engineers would go over the changes. it would probably take a few days)

I'd have to say this is possibly the one thing I'm almost certain of.

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You are assuming Tesla would be able to detect any modifications.
I would assume...any competent Tesla “hacker” would make it a priority to find and disable the Tesla remote links, such that the modified vehicle is immune from Tesla monitoring or intervention.

furcifer said:

Well you probably never worked at a car company. Lawsuits and settlements are built into the price of vehicles.

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Of course. And the way they make money is having FEWER lawsuits and settlements.

However, I think you're missing my point here. IF any mod is determined to be "better" it can be implemented immediately. If you're running a modded program that the company doesn't decided to use it's because it isn't "better".

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And the point I think you are missing is that not everyone agrees on what "better" means.

Which is basically why I've been saying, unless the government steps in there's no reason to not provide the owners with the full potential of the car.

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Other than the fact that they want to make money, and giving them the "full potential" as you see it is not the same as them making the most money.

SquidBonez said:

I don't want you to think I'm not reading your responses or that I'm trying to be antagonistic or anything, I just disagree. While ICE cars have to meet emissions standards and EVs don't, that's not the only reason why ICE cars are de-tuned. Another large factor is powertrain wear and engine life. And while EVs are far more reliable, even Tesla warns that using it's Ludicrous mode too many times will lead to, and I quote from Tesla: "accelerated wear of the motor, gearbox, and battery." That being said, Teslas are de-tuned not to meet emissions standards obviously, but as a way to extend the life of the powertrain, and extend the range. A tuner understands that modifying a car for better performance inherently makes it less reliable, but a manufacture wants to sell a car that lasts a long time. So no, they aren't always programmed as best as they could be performance wise - they are programmed to strike a balance between reliability, range, and performance.

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OK, just making sure you were paying attention.

I'd still say the majority of the performance market isn't about pushing things to the limits. Not every tuner has a stage 3 car.

To continue that analogy, EV's can be offered from the factory with at least stage 2. Tesla's proven that. And those 2 stages represent a significant portion of the tuners.

Perhaps more importantly, if my grandmother can do it's not much of a tune. Are you going to spend $5K on your deliberately under powered car so my grandma can roll up at a light and smoke your doors off in her Tesla by pushing a button?

SquidBonez said:

You are correct in saying there is less to modify on an EV, but that doesn't mean it's a dead market. I know some people on this forum were machining the motors of their Zero motorcycles and swapping out the stock controllers to get more power. And in the future one could imagine higher-discharge battery module replacements. Sure a manufacturer could come in and begin selling their vehicle with these modifications as standard after tuners start doing it like you said (funnily enough Zero did exactly that and upgraded their controllers after tuners were swapping them out) but not every modification is practical to sell. Again, reliability vs performance and all that. Plus, not everybody is buying a new car, or the highest trim level of a car. For example, let's use a hypothetical ICE car. The old version of the car comes standard with an open differential and is naturally aspirated while the new, premium model has a limited slip diff and a turbo. I may only have the old model, but I could buy a new diff and a turbo kit to upgrade the car myself rather than simply buying an entirely new car. Same concept with an electric car. I could buy an old Gen 1 Leaf, swap out some components and make a more powerful car out of it than even the newest generation Leaf. I know they guy who built the Teslonda has experience with modifying Leafs (more specifically, swapping out the stock inverter). Point is not all modifications are done to new cars. There are still people out there modifying 90s Civics, and in the future there will be people modifying 1st gen Leafs. It doesn't matter if the manufacturer releases a new version of the car, people will modify what they already have.

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A Zero is a toy, it's not $60K daily driver. Which is my point. You're talking about ICE's performance mods and whatnot but what's the cost of failure? Usually very little. Smoke a battery pack in an EV and it's likely to be a write off, at best very expensive.

As for the Leaf, I'm just not seeing it. You're going to sink $5-10K into a battery pack for an old Leaf and another $5K in parts. OK.

All those 91 Honda's cost $500, and you drop a little here and a little there. Unless the batteries come down I don't see the same market developing around cars like the Leaf.

SquidBonez said:

Back to my point of not every car being a Tesla.

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No, they're only going to get better.

It's seems to me your whole argument hinges around them getting worse. They won't.

SquidBonez said:

Like I said there's still wear to consider with an EV. Gearbox, differentials, batteries that get shorter and shorter lifespans as they get too hot/discharge too quickly, axles, bearings, etc.

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Of course there is, it's a machine.

But like I said, the whole performance tuning scene is about building up a car to the point where is runs quick but doesn't blow up. EV car manufacturers are already doing this today. Tesla has proven they can kill the performance market with a simple down load.

There will always be people with more money than brains that jack up cars and blow them up. But that's a very small portion of the performance scene. I wouldn't base my predictions on what that small group does.

Hillhater said:

You are assuming Tesla would be able to detect any modifications.
I would assume...any competent Tesla “hacker” would make it a priority to find and disable the Tesla remote links, such that the modified vehicle is immune from Tesla monitoring or intervention.

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I'm not sure I follow you. How can anyone get a program for a Tesla that Tesla can't get? I'm sure someone at Tesla drives a Tesla.

billvon said:

Of course. And the way they make money is having FEWER lawsuits and settlements.

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Or they sell more cars.

It's a numbers game. As long as the net is higher than the losses they will offer it.

billvon said:

Other than the fact that they want to make money, and giving them the "full potential" as you see it is not the same as them making the most money.

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What's the saying, win on Sunday sell on Monday. Performance sells. All the flagship models are performance models.

billvon said:

furcifer said:

Well you probably never worked at a car company. Lawsuits and settlements are built into the price of vehicles.

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Of course. And the way they make money is having FEWER lawsuits and settlements.

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No, according to the internal memos, the way to make money is to just pay off the lawsuits instead of fixing the problems. $15 dollars each to fix the original Mustang, but it'll explode so rarely it'll cost less to just pay the people off afterward.