Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by neptronix » Aug 14 2019 7:40pm

Cowardlyduck wrote:
Aug 14 2019 6:12pm
So anyway, I think you should seriously consider an internal battery cause it would solve all your issues...and also cause I want to see someone else try it. :)
Interesting. I thought maybe yours was a bit wider and it was easier to play with.
I've never built a battery before and am a bit hesitant to build my first one for this bike. I have a bunch of various batteries lying around that need to get utilized. Gonna try those first.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by neptronix » Aug 14 2019 7:48pm

amberwolf wrote:
Aug 14 2019 7:23pm
What about offsetting the pack to the left to clear the chain? If it will still clear your legs and cranks, it won't change the handling significantly, and the change it does make you'll easily and quickly get used to.
I thought about doing exactly that, and putting the controller ( likely my phaserunner ) and wiring on the other side to help counterbalance the weight. Not ideal, but it would work in a bottom mount configuration.

Maybe if i raised the battery pack a bit, i could clear the chain up front, and also my monster size calves.

Time to go experiment.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by neptronix » Aug 16 2019 10:54am

Just a chuckle i found via the tachyon labs page. Someone made an oil tanker fairing to protest Chevron. Kinda funny to me because a recumbent with a fairing in itself is a great path off of oil dependency.
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I'd guess that the rider exits out the back by untying the one large panel. Makes for an easy and simple construction. Color me inspired!
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by thundercamel » Aug 16 2019 11:04am

Ha! Forward visibility seems to suffer slightly though :P
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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by neptronix » Aug 16 2019 12:31pm

Yeah, i wouldn't ride with a fairing like that more than once. But it's the basis for some interesting ideas.. how about something like that with a lower front, a windscreen up top, and a door that you can lock and unlock?
I think i'm gonna harvest some more wild urban cloroplast after work..


Anyway, i'm inspired to start building the geared hub-based mid drive for this bike. Realized that it should be hanging at the bottom front of the bike, not the top. So i ordered the upgraded seat sliders, and the mid drive, which will be very much a poor man's stoke monkey kit, will inherit the OE seat sliders, as they'll only need to hold maybe 30ft-lbs of torque, versus my 200lbs :mrgreen:

Image
mid-drive-1.jpg
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Turns out i can't put the rear geared hub as forwards as i'd like without modifying the axle, because the crank collides with the end of the axle. I suspect i could cut the axles short and use a very narrow bolt to mount it to the sliding plate system, and mount it as forwards as it will go.

The first mid drive will be built out of ordinary steel plate as a means to test the concept, then i'll have the plates made out of aluminum. And the 3lbs YTW-06 + plates should add up to 5lbs on the front end. Anything helps!

As for the battery..

I think i have the hailong pack mounting sorted. I'm going to experiment with the seat position ( can i handle going forward a bit more? ), but in the seat's current position, if i mount the battery in parallel with the seat back, the battery's weight would be a little bit ahead of the axle, so it will at least help the weight balance problem a bit. :thumb: I just have to make some kind of plate to mount it to, side supports, etc.
battery-mount.jpg
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"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by neptronix » Aug 17 2019 12:33am

battery-mount-2.jpg
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Here's the battery in reality. Not bad, i eyeballed it pretty well.
I'm a tiny smidge more forward than i like though, so after moving back a hair i bet the weight is more towards neutral :/

I picked up some super flat pedals for now, so that i can move forward 4-8mm: https://www.ebay.com/itm/322932836409

Every lb i can get ahead of the axle.. i will!


I fetched some cloroplast yard signs and the yard sign mounts, cuz a big event ended 2 days ago and they left them littering the 'urbs.

Made the beginnings of a tail fairing. I'm told that this is good for a couple mph speed increase, so i'm kinda stoked.
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It needs to be duct taped and painted and adjusted a bit more, but yeah. I also have to come up with some kind of mechanism for makes attaching/detatching it easy.
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If i can make pedaling the bike more pleasant by using super flat pedals, i'll modify the shape a bit so that it fits around the battery, because it would be great to have the battery back there, especially if it was in the pictured location, and helped forward weight balance :)
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by qwerkus » Aug 18 2019 4:16am

The main frame beam looks like nice cro-mo steel. If that's true, I'd suggest welding jobs to solve most of your issues, like relocating the steering tube to allow a suspension fork, and add some mountings for a battery. If you feel crafty, you can even go for a hollow central beam, and hide the cells there. In that case, I'd go stainless.

EDIT: Saw a video somewhere with frame details. Definitely alu. Makes modding more difficult. If you still want to mod the clearance and angle for the steering tube, you can try cutting it away, and bolt-on some extension made of steel, with a tube at a different angle.

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by neptronix » Aug 18 2019 6:50pm

Man, it's not a strong enough frame to be cutting up and drilling holes in, to be honest. It's a ~33lbs bike, which is pretty light considering how long it is, plus the fact that chromoly ( generally a bit heavier ) is used in the swingarm and headtube. The main tube is super light..

I think another 4mm or so of space should get me to a comfortable pedaling zone. I'm just off by a hair. I'll get that battery on the back if it kills me..
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by tigcross » Aug 19 2019 11:19pm

Hey Neptronix,
I just caught up with this thread. I like your determination.
Your experience with the difficulty of retrofiring an existing recumbent to electric confirms one of my main reasons for starting the Electrom project: That existing recumbent frames out there are not and adequate for high-power and high-speed e-bikes and we need to start from scratch to make the best e-recumbent possible.

keep pushing the limits.

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by qwerkus » Aug 20 2019 7:09am

neptronix wrote:
Aug 18 2019 6:50pm
I'll get that battery on the back if it kills me..
Scary...

There are a few simpler solutions. Hailong packs are quite wide indeed (90mm), and frankly not very good. So-called silverfish battery case come in a wide range of shapes. They are made of sturdy aluminum, and once you replace the crappy plastic endings by simple 3mm aluminium plates, they become quite decent. Some vendor offer to cut you the body part to custom length so in the standart 110*75mm type, if you chose 300mm length, you can put over a hundred cells easily...

Image

My latest discovery is this ultra-simple case:

Image

Basically only a plastic box formed to size, but only 72mm wide and you can still fit 52 cells inside. There is also a 6p version available. I'm trying to find out if there is enough space left inside to fit a decent bms, but due to communication issues I think I'll just have to buy one and test it myself. Also, sealing and especially closing the box could become problematic, though I'd use it as an alternative to shrinkwrap, to protect cells inside a bag.

If nothing helps, there is always my favorite chinese battery supplier: http://www.unitpackpower.com/goods/26.html
Quite expensive, so I won't get my packs there, but they list nearly all available chinese battery shapes on their website... with dimensions! So you can just browse through the list, and pick a model that fit your requirements, and than get the case only over ebay/ali.

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by neptronix » Aug 20 2019 4:50pm

Very interesting. re-casing the battery did surely come to mind.. thanks for doing some footwork for me :bolt:
Will investigate when i get some brain juice back.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by The Toecutter » Aug 23 2019 1:00am

Getting a tail fairing by itself to reduce drag is a lot trickier than it looks. You have to consider the entire shape of rider + bike as a complete system, and it will be a constantly changing shape as you are pedaling it. You will need a high end CFD program to model that one.

Here's some simple coroplast tail faring designs to draw inspiration from:

http://recumbents.com/wisil/tailbox/bar ... ailbox.htm

They may or may not work and you will need to find a hill that you can coast down from a stop without pedaling to find peak speed reached(and compare to results without the tailbox), in order to determine if it has resulted in a reduction in drag.

Here's another topic of an individual designing a ducted tailbox that may be of interest:

http://bentrideronline.com/messageboard ... p?t=147595

I'd recommend you plan on eventually making a full streamliner fairing if you're after maximum efficiency, like the one linked below:

http://recumbents.com/wisil/pauljones/

And this page was especially handy for getting an idea of how to scale various shapes to fit your frame:

http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/scale_p ... liners.htm

A CdA on the order of 0.10 m^2 is possible with your bike using coroplast. Imagine only needing 250W to do 30 mph and approaching 40 mph on a flat ground sprint completely under your own power! You could get quite some range on not a whole lot of battery with the right shape.

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by neptronix » Aug 23 2019 7:18pm

Just a quick update before i get back to the rest of replies..

The SMS space saver pedals are installed, and yeah, i got some extra millmeters of pedal space cleared up, so that's rad.
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The aftermarket seat rail holders came from bicycle man. Wooooweee, i love how overbuilt these are. Fantastic! :mrgreen:
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"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by Aquakitty » Aug 24 2019 12:00am

Neat project! I have a Rans Enduro Sport SWB I put a mid-drive on. While the Bike-E is a CLWB it's kind of similar in geometry. I ended up with a rack battery on mine as it was the easiest solution. I have had some big loads on it and no problems yet, aside from being a tad squirrly but SWB usually are anyways. I feel like I'm on a mini rocket ship powering around on it.
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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by neptronix » Aug 24 2019 10:01am

Aquakitty wrote:
Aug 24 2019 12:00am
Neat project! I have a Rans Enduro Sport SWB I put a mid-drive on. While the Bike-E is a CLWB it's kind of similar in geometry. I ended up with a rack battery on mine as it was the easiest solution. I have had some big loads on it and no problems yet, aside from being a tad squirrly but SWB usually are anyways. I feel like I'm on a mini rocket ship powering around on it.
Cool. Do you have a build thread?

Riding in a mini rocket ship is a good way to describe riding a recumbent. I think of my cannondale recumbent as more of a boat because of the super smooshy dual suspension and very smooshy supportive seat. I feel less like i am riding it, and more like it is taking me for a ride.

The bikeE is much less serene because are not so disconnected from what's happening with the front end. But still very enjoyable.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by neptronix » Apr 10 2020 10:35pm

Since my leg has almost fully recovered from the tibia fracture, i've been using the whipper snapper as a rehab bike... and pulling 20-30 mile rides nearly every day lately.

The bike is very fun.. i adjusted the gearing so i could top out at 30mph... the only time a guy on a roadbike passes me is when he's 140lbs and wearing full aero lycra and in something resembling the fetal position.. :lol:

I currently do not have a garage as i'm renting a room, so i haven't been able to work on bikes to the degree i once did, but i'm looking to change that in the next 1-2 months.

I still don't know exactly how to motorize this bike. I really appreciate it's lightness and being able to chuck it around. A mid drive with a tiny geared motor would be fun. A front fork mounted chain drive would be even more fun.

Just wanted to check in and let y'all know i'm alive.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by thundercamel » Apr 12 2020 3:18pm

Ahoy! You are a far stronger biker than I am :) I've been ordering lots of affordable parts since I've been stuck at home.
My Ebike builds - Existing bikes, affordable motor kits, self built 14s6p batteries - Now with more recumbent!

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by rowan » Apr 12 2020 7:42pm

I’ve been following this (and other) thread here and finally got around to registering. I’ve got a pretty similar bikeE that I got over 20 years ago, didn’t end up using all that much, so it’s in good condition. I’ve been fixing up a few bits on it recently (new brakes, modern tires, added some fenders, built a wooden crate to put on a regular rear rack). It’s my regular grocery run now, and I’m leaning towards putting the Bafang G311 on the front to see what it does for me.

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by Balmorhea » Apr 12 2020 8:12pm

How do you find the handling of the BikeE versus the Cannondale? When I tried the BikeE (non-suspended version) many years ago, I found it bothersomely unstable. I haven’t tried the Cannondale.
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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by goatman » Apr 12 2020 11:20pm

if I google, wide bicycle bottom bracket, there seems to be quite a selection. I don't know if you can get a bracket that moves each of the cranks outward a 1/4 or 1/2 inch, so the battery can go forward and miss the chainring? heres a link, its an exaggeration of what I mean but you get the idea

https://mbrebel.com/product/7-5inch-sea ... art-20432/

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by The Toecutter » Apr 13 2020 4:18am

Glad to see you're able to ride after such an injury.

The bike does present itself quite a number of obstacles to electrification, as well as lots of potential configurations, none of them really ideal. The small wheels really impair it, IMO. I wouldn't trust the layout with a high-powered setup and would keep it at 750W or less, simply because there's no suspension. That said, if it were my project, I'd probably use a small low-powered hub motor in the front wheel and have the pedal drive power the rear wheel. It would keep the human power and electric power independent of each other, and help keep reliability high. A small 250W mid drive may not be a bad route to go as well, as long as you get the right kind of chain for it.

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by Cowardlyduck » Apr 13 2020 5:56am

The Toecutter wrote:
Apr 13 2020 4:18am
The bike does present itself quite a number of obstacles to electrification, as well as lots of potential configurations, none of them really ideal. The small wheels really impair it, IMO. I wouldn't trust the layout with a high-powered setup and would keep it at 750W or less, simply because there's no suspension. That said, if it were my project, I'd probably use a small low-powered hub motor in the front wheel and have the pedal drive power the rear wheel. It would keep the human power and electric power independent of each other, and help keep reliability high. A small 250W mid drive may not be a bad route to go as well, as long as you get the right kind of chain for it.
Not sure I agree with that!
Been riding my unsuspended BikeE with decent power for over 5 years:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=57751&start=275
Image
It's been through a lot of changes over the years, but the end result is a pretty slick unit.
Battery and controller in the frame, and a 27mm golden motor @ 1250W peak, 55kph top speed. Schlumpf speed drive up front so I can still pedal along also. Solar panel up front generates about 5-10km per day in full sun and creates a great laminar flow around me for increased efficiency.
Runs great and continues to run to from work for me on a daily basis (when not in lockdown).
The lack of suspension is the biggest issue I have, but I mostly counter it with large volume tires run at lower PSI. It doesn't help the overall efficientcy, but it does make the bike much more rideable than otherwise.

Anyway, sorry neptronix for hijacking your thread...just want others to know how great these bikes really are to convert. :D

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by neptronix » Apr 14 2020 2:10pm

Balmorhea wrote:
Apr 12 2020 8:12pm
How do you find the handling of the BikeE versus the Cannondale? When I tried the BikeE (non-suspended version) many years ago, I found it bothersomely unstable. I haven’t tried the Cannondale.
The bikeE with it's stock handlebars is super skittish at lower speeds. I replaced them with some cruiser bars and it made the steering dramatically more confident. It's notably more nimble than the cannondale due to it's shorter wheelbase, and also 10lbs lighter, so this is no surprise.

I also peak out at 1mph faster on the bikeE. My human top speed on flat land is 24mph on this bad boy.

The front wheel not having suspension isn't as big of a deal as i thought. I'd be wary of a pothole at high speeds though, so i'd never design it to run at >30mph.

The Cannondale is like driving a big luxury car. It floats over busted surfaces. It's steady and confident. It steers more like a bus.
rowan wrote:
Apr 12 2020 7:42pm
It’s my regular grocery run now, and I’m leaning towards putting the Bafang G311 on the front to see what it does for me.
Be aware that being a dual geared motor, the G311/G310 has a maximum wheel RPM limit of around 350rpm. In a 16" wheel, you will easily exceed that at very low speeds. 40mph translates to something like 1000rpm, That'd put your maximum top speed around 15mph or so - well below how fast you can pedal it.

Putting it in a 20" rear wheel is better but still limits you to something like 20mph.. it's very unfortunate :/
Also, welcome to the forum!!!
thundercamel wrote:
Apr 12 2020 3:18pm
Ahoy! You are a far stronger biker than I am :) I've been ordering lots of affordable parts since I've been stuck at home.
I've been practicing riding up hills while my tibia was held together with metal pins. The second i had my frame removed, i started aggressively pedaling the exercise bike at the gym. The second we hit April, i've been on the road every day, clobbering hills again. No need to be jealous of me.. go out there and challenge yourself and build some wicked cardio capacity ( it'll help you in bed too, hehe ) :)
goatman wrote:
Apr 12 2020 11:20pm
if I google, wide bicycle bottom bracket, there seems to be quite a selection. I don't know if you can get a bracket that moves each of the cranks outward a 1/4 or 1/2 inch, so the battery can go forward..
That's an idea. However, i've read several studies that show that pedaling is more efficient the more narrow the cranks are.
The front of the bike is a great place to put a battery for weight balance reasons, and would prevent the bike from wheelie-ing from pedaling, as it's prone to do. But dangit, i want that pedaling efficiency!

I'm considering mounting a battery halfway between the crank and the seat or so.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Lightweight efficiency oriented BikeE conversion

Post by rowan » Apr 15 2020 11:50am

neptronix wrote:
Apr 14 2020 2:10pm
rowan wrote:
Apr 12 2020 7:42pm
It’s my regular grocery run now, and I’m leaning towards putting the Bafang G311 on the front to see what it does for me.
Be aware that being a dual geared motor, the G311/G310 has a maximum wheel RPM limit of around 350rpm. In a 16" wheel, you will easily exceed that at very low speeds. 40mph translates to something like 1000rpm, That'd put your maximum top speed around 15mph or so - well below how fast you can pedal it.

Putting it in a 20" rear wheel is better but still limits you to something like 20mph.. it's very unfortunate :/
Also, welcome to the forum!!!
Thanks! 15-20mph is perfectly fine for my area, uses, and pavement quality. A number of the streets I go on are fairly low speed, hilly, pothole-filled residential areas, and if I want to use this to commute to work, the bigger streets are nice, flat and easy to get up to speed on my own.

I ended up ordering the GRIN front wheel RTR kit the other day, so I'm just sitting on my hands waiting for it now. For the 16" pre-laced wheel they use the very fast wind (11.9 rpm/V). I'll start my own build thread with pictures once it comes in. My current topic of research is a decent kickstand, since the stock one is a bit wobbly - but I'm not sure I can easily mount a two-leg one like I'd like. But dealing with panniers full of groceries without one is a bit ... cumbersome.

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