jimmyfergus
100 mW
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2018
- Messages
- 49
buba said:
Makes sense - and you absolutely have nothing to apologize for. You guys are already hugely responsive and a day or two's absence needs no apologies, especially for fielding random ideas!
TSDZ2 mid drive with 860C, 850C or SW102 displays only -- Flexible OpenSource firmware (Casainho code only)
- Thread starter casainho
- Start date
Makes sense - and you absolutely have nothing to apologize for. You guys are already hugely responsive and a day or two's absence needs no apologies, especially for fielding random ideas!
elem
100 W
Yes walk assist is usefull but soo hard to use, a way i wanted to use is putting an interuptor in // on the down button,
in fact it was for friend who use yamaha motor an the button is badly than the lcd3 one,
one of the best is witch used on bosh motor ... you validate the walk assit mode with a special button and after only put the down buton, no delay to start assist wlaking, no delay if you lose the buton one second it come as soon as you put your fonger on the down buton .
in fact it was for friend who use yamaha motor an the button is badly than the lcd3 one,
one of the best is witch used on bosh motor ... you validate the walk assit mode with a special button and after only put the down buton, no delay to start assist wlaking, no delay if you lose the buton one second it come as soon as you put your fonger on the down buton .
elem
100 W
if the conbinaison DOWN+POWER isn't in use anymore, we could use this combinaison to activate walk assit mode and after only push the down buton ?
for those using a display with more than 3 button it will easy to implemente
for those using a display with more than 3 button it will easy to implemente
Rydon said:
At an exponent 2 and above (level8) there is going to be little difference between emtb and torque assist with a higher multiplier?
eMTB is useful to supplement the human power curve at low rpm and then back off power delivery as the RPM goes up, human power goes up and human torque goes down. But at higher levels of this exponent you are hitting against the motors max continuous power delivery anyway so not really getting a nuanced benefit? ie the motor is simply outputting to its current / power limits at almost all times!
Buba is there an option to make the exponent user configurable rather than having a fixed table?
(edited: i made mistake becouse i used 18 rear chainring instead of 21 tooth)
Hello guys!
At first i'd like to thank to everybody who is involved in developing this great OpenFirmware!
I have mounted TSDZ2+KT LCD3 with OpenFirmware in my wifes eMTB bike and it is doing really really well!
I want to share with You with two things:
1. The way I program my 850C LCD without fully opening it (i'm using pogo pins)
[youtube]wvAaNyZPzOg[/youtube]
2. Chart of Power vs Torque that we have measured on DYNO (inertial) with using of thumb throttle
(we can notice that we have about 67% of power efficency comparing to data shown on LCD)
(i'm not an expert in such kind of calculations so if You have find any error/mistake - let me know)
Motor was TSDZ2 48V
Battery was 13S 48V fully charged
MAX current on LCD was set to 17A
MAX power on LCD was set to 850W
Front chainring was 42 tooth
Rear chainring was 18 tooth
(so ratio was 2,3 from motor to wheel)
Rear wheel circunference was 2095mm
You can find all the files here:
(original charts from dyno, spreadsheet)
http://bikel.pl/pliki/TSDZ2/POWER/
And here You can watch measurement process:
https://youtu.be/Vom-ikcaQCA?t=1368
And this is my video where I show my wife's bicycle with TSDZ2:
https://youtu.be/a5TcRuJLW4Y
Hello guys!
At first i'd like to thank to everybody who is involved in developing this great OpenFirmware!
I have mounted TSDZ2+KT LCD3 with OpenFirmware in my wifes eMTB bike and it is doing really really well!
I want to share with You with two things:
1. The way I program my 850C LCD without fully opening it (i'm using pogo pins)
[youtube]wvAaNyZPzOg[/youtube]
2. Chart of Power vs Torque that we have measured on DYNO (inertial) with using of thumb throttle
(we can notice that we have about 67% of power efficency comparing to data shown on LCD)
(i'm not an expert in such kind of calculations so if You have find any error/mistake - let me know)
Motor was TSDZ2 48V
Battery was 13S 48V fully charged
MAX current on LCD was set to 17A
MAX power on LCD was set to 850W
Front chainring was 42 tooth
Rear chainring was 18 tooth
(so ratio was 2,3 from motor to wheel)
Rear wheel circunference was 2095mm
You can find all the files here:
(original charts from dyno, spreadsheet)
http://bikel.pl/pliki/TSDZ2/POWER/
And here You can watch measurement process:
https://youtu.be/Vom-ikcaQCA?t=1368
And this is my video where I show my wife's bicycle with TSDZ2:
https://youtu.be/a5TcRuJLW4Y
bikelpl said:(edited: i made mistake becouse i used 18 rear chainring instead of 21 tooth)
Hello guys!
At first i'd like to thank to everybody who is involved in developing this great OpenFirmware!
I have mounted TSDZ2+KT LCD3 with OpenFirmware in my wifes eMTB bike and it is doing really really well!
I want to share with You with two things:
1. The way I program my 850C LCD without fully opening it (i'm using pogo pins)
[youtube]wvAaNyZPzOg[/youtube]
2. Chart of Power vs Torque that we have measured on DYNO (inertial) with using of thumb throttle
(we can notice that we have about 67% of power efficency comparing to data shown on LCD)
(i'm not an expert in such kind of calculations so if You have find any error/mistake - let me know)
Motor was TSDZ2 48V
Battery was 13S 48V fully charged
MAX current on LCD was set to 17A
MAX power on LCD was set to 850W
Front chainring was 42 tooth
Rear chainring was 18 tooth
(so ratio was 2,3 from motor to wheel)
Rear wheel circunference was 2095mm
You can find all the files here:
(original charts from dyno, spreadsheet)
http://bikel.pl/pliki/TSDZ2/POWER/
And here You can watch measurement process:
https://youtu.be/Vom-ikcaQCA?t=1368
And this is my video where I show my wife's bicycle with TSDZ2:
https://youtu.be/a5TcRuJLW4Y
Very interesting youtube channel. Too bad I don't understand the language.
Think you would get a lot more viewers if you spoke English.
casainho
10 GW
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2011
- Messages
- 6,045
Bafang 850C display new firmware version: v0.4.0
News:
- build for manufacturer bootloader (no more need to open the display and solder the programming wires)
- added initial screen showing project name, address and firmware version
- added display automatic power off
Next I need to update wiki with the information to install our firmware without the need to open the 850C display.
News:
- build for manufacturer bootloader (no more need to open the display and solder the programming wires)
- added initial screen showing project name, address and firmware version
- added display automatic power off
Next I need to update wiki with the information to install our firmware without the need to open the 850C display.
casainho
10 GW
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2011
- Messages
- 6,045
Elem, personally I don't like localized forum. For instance, my main language is not English but I use Google translator when I need and so I can write and read AND FIND information on google. There are forums for Russian, German, French, Italian, Portuguese, etc but I can't find the information there when I search on Google -- I think is strategic to be in "simplified EN" only and then help users to use google translator and learn the "simplified EN".elem said:
So, seems the only changing they can do is: nRF51422 exchange to nRF51822 (both seem to be pin compatible so would be a mater to change one by the other and this change would add only the ANT). This means they do not want to make any big change to the product, like a change of the electronic board and plastic enclosure. Probably manufacture do not want to develop a new version and maybe this SW102 will remain on the market for next years (maybe 5 years at least??) and that is good news for us, since we need a stable hardware because we can't be developing a new firmware for a new product, every 1 year.eyebyesickle said:
I don't use ANT sensors so I can't understand potential value on having ANT on SW102. Considering this and that no other changes can be done on SW102, I would keep as it is.
Good idea but thanks to the efforts of many, we can now flash our firmware without the need to open or cut a hole on the 850C display. (I need to update the wiki....)bikelpl said:
Thanks for sharing. I don't know what we will do with this data.bikelpl said:
geeksville
10 W
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2019
- Messages
- 89
> I don't use ANT sensors so I can't understand potential value on having ANT on SW102. Considering this and that no other changes can be done on SW102, I would keep as it is.
I agree. the ANT CPU is a nice plus if they are doing a biggish build (because it would someday allow the SW102 to serve as a power meter (human pedal input) to Garmin and then in turn to Strava - for tracking fitness/effort). Also allows heart rate to be displayed on the SW102 if user wants. And if the user is using the slick radar bike light for commuting it could show vehicle position as well.
But I don't think it is a major feature. If they are doing any incremental spin of this product though, I'd say "if it fits your business plan, the super small increase in COGS (about $0.32 according to digikey) probably provides you with with >$0.32 in features"
I agree. the ANT CPU is a nice plus if they are doing a biggish build (because it would someday allow the SW102 to serve as a power meter (human pedal input) to Garmin and then in turn to Strava - for tracking fitness/effort). Also allows heart rate to be displayed on the SW102 if user wants. And if the user is using the slick radar bike light for commuting it could show vehicle position as well.
But I don't think it is a major feature. If they are doing any incremental spin of this product though, I'd say "if it fits your business plan, the super small increase in COGS (about $0.32 according to digikey) probably provides you with with >$0.32 in features"
mctubster said:
A sufficiently high Torque Assist multiplier could be approximated to an exponent of 2 and above if we have some defined and closed range with limits, such as in our use case. So you are basically right but it depends!
Will try to improve the functions so we have more granularity and a better response. This will benefit handcycle riders and all other users as well.
mctubster said:
Nothing to add to your analysis on eMTB. Spot on and nice to read! As I said, I will try to improve the functions so they will hopefully be more responsive and users can choose the exponent with higher resolution -> More sensitivity values with better tables.
It is not possible to have the exponent user configurable. This is something I tried to do efficiently but no matter how you do it, it will take a lot of programming space. I am sorry if you feel this is suboptimal! We are dealing with power functions and, sadly, those need to be calculated differently compared to simple multiplication operations.
Will do my best to improve everything!
bikelpl said:(edited: i made mistake becouse i used 18 rear chainring instead of 21 tooth)
Hello guys!
At first i'd like to thank to everybody who is involved in developing this great OpenFirmware!
I have mounted TSDZ2+KT LCD3 with OpenFirmware in my wifes eMTB bike and it is doing really really well!
2. Chart of Power vs Torque that we have measured on DYNO (inertial) with using of thumb throttle
(we can notice that we have about 67% of power efficency comparing to data shown on LCD)
(i'm not an expert in such kind of calculations so if You have find any error/mistake - let me know)
Motor was TSDZ2 48V
Battery was 13S 48V fully charged
MAX current on LCD was set to 17A
MAX power on LCD was set to 850W
Front chainring was 42 tooth
Rear chainring was 18 tooth
(so ratio was 2,3 from motor to wheel)
Rear wheel circunference was 2095mm
You can find all the files here:
(original charts from dyno, spreadsheet)
http://bikel.pl/pliki/TSDZ2/POWER/
And here You can watch measurement process:
https://youtu.be/Vom-ikcaQCA?t=1368
And this is my video where I show my wife's bicycle with TSDZ2:
https://youtu.be/a5TcRuJLW4Y
That is AWESOME and very cool of you to test and share with us. I have not calculated nor used any of the data but I will look at it out of pure curiosity and also make a mental note for the future :wink:
I know this dyno is calibrated for power levels well above 1 kW but still interesting to see how the TSDZ2 performs. This could be used to validate the human power measurement (after proper torque calibration) and also the future motor controller tuning!
Regardless, cool to see!
EDIT: It would also be interesting to compare how much better the open source firmware is compared to the original firmware.
Final update on the eMTB Sensitivity Survey!
When extrapolating the data we seem to have a normal distribution and the most common sensitivity value is 4!
Next eMTB implementation will be much better and have an increased resolution. Have considered all the user feedback and there will be no compromises and only improvements. More info coming in the next days!
When extrapolating the data we seem to have a normal distribution and the most common sensitivity value is 4!
Next eMTB implementation will be much better and have an increased resolution. Have considered all the user feedback and there will be no compromises and only improvements. More info coming in the next days!
andrea_104kg
1 kW
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2018
- Messages
- 344
Sorry if I insist but I am not clear where you want to arrive with emtb. If you want a progressive level the power mode is already perfect, anyone can try it.
Just set a high multiplier and you can easily get from a few watts to the maximum. Just look at the wattmeter and you can see the value rise in a perfectly progressive way.
So I don't understand what emtb could do.
To make a comparison I took the turbo levo and I put the maximum level and I tried if there was the same progression from a few watts at most. There is not! The turbo levo at the maximum level starts from around 350w and then rises, in a rather abrupt manner. While on the tsdz2 you can hardly press the pedals to not change level and use a few watts, on the turbo levo you can't go slowly to the maximum level, you need to decrease level.
A consideration on mechanics. A very progressive level reduces the need to change gear ratio. For the tsdz2 this can be negative. Not using the gearbox can be a drain on the mechanical part that is not very solid on the tsdz2. In the same way the engine is urged not to run at an optimal speed with consequent rapid heating. So I don't think emtb is the solution to many problems.
If, on the other hand, you want to get something different with emtb, please explain to me :-(
Just set a high multiplier and you can easily get from a few watts to the maximum. Just look at the wattmeter and you can see the value rise in a perfectly progressive way.
So I don't understand what emtb could do.
To make a comparison I took the turbo levo and I put the maximum level and I tried if there was the same progression from a few watts at most. There is not! The turbo levo at the maximum level starts from around 350w and then rises, in a rather abrupt manner. While on the tsdz2 you can hardly press the pedals to not change level and use a few watts, on the turbo levo you can't go slowly to the maximum level, you need to decrease level.
A consideration on mechanics. A very progressive level reduces the need to change gear ratio. For the tsdz2 this can be negative. Not using the gearbox can be a drain on the mechanical part that is not very solid on the tsdz2. In the same way the engine is urged not to run at an optimal speed with consequent rapid heating. So I don't think emtb is the solution to many problems.
If, on the other hand, you want to get something different with emtb, please explain to me :-(
elem
100 W
andrea_104kg said:
I haven t tested eMTb'OSF for the moment, what i have read about bosh'EMTB on french forum is that many ppl love it, some will consume more watt than other but the fate is ; using eMTB in mountain biking is the best way to be only focusing the technique and don t care about the assist .
It depend many with how the man is able to use the bike, i m 58 year old, 179 m size and 64 kgrs weight, i know that it will be very different for other users, in a french forum someone using a TSDZ2 with about the same weight of you said that he haven t broken blue nylon gear or other part but the main axle have take some movment, and he said he will trash it ( the entire mid drive ) .
TSDZ2 is a really small engine ( the motor itself, not the mid drive ) smaller than shimano/bosh ( witch are the smaller in fact ) .
it work fine if you know it's limitation .
don t care about i said concerning weight, it's not an offense i mean, just considere that it s a parameter that must cause some different issues/experiment in the use of this mid drive witch came exelent with the use of OSF ...
i made a " raid " today, 72 km and 1680 D+ with my DIY batterie and OSF V0.19 just to improve myself and the motor, using all offroad possible , battery consumed was 572Wh and the motor ran perfectly, was using about 200w in 7% road, more mwhen it s was offrod with rock ...https://www.strava.com/activities/2635056843
i ride often with some friend using bafang/yamaha even bosh bike, i was never out off battery even when i used a small 360 wh battery, it depend how you are able to use your leg and also the knowing of the use of the energy used in the moteur .
TSDZ2 run perfectly when you r able to maintain about 70 human rpm and limit your assit to the minimum necessary .
eMTb is perfect when you don t care about the use of the battery and want to focuse the driving of you r bike .
i m certain the eMTB developed in the OSf wil be perfect and will test it asp .
andrea_104kg said:
I am glad that you are so satisfied with Power Assist and how it feels! I understand that you prefer the feeling over the other modes. Therefore, you wish to know why there is a need for eMTB at all. But I think it is best that other users explain why they like eMTB Assist. And also how, when and where they use it. I think their words would add more value than me writing a response.
I always try to do my best to maximize the experience for as many as possible. This means working on all kind of improvements. Sometimes I implement functions and features I think have some value. Other times I listen to suggestions and feedback. eMTB falls in the latter category and was originally suggested to me. Many seemed excited to try it out as it had received good reviews on many different systems.
So this is why I added it in the 0.20.0 for the TSDZ2.
There is a discrepancy between all TSDZ2 units and how accurate the torque sensor is. Some users feel eMTB improves the experience as it offsets the aforementioned discrepancy but others do not feel it adds anything.
Then there is the difference between users and how they like to be assisted. The fact is that I do not know of one single riding mode that could replace all riding modes. So the best thing is to offer several options so everyone can play around and find a setup that fits their personal preference and particular hardware.
elem said:
Great to hear your impressions and what you think! I will soon update eMTB so it should be better. So whenever you try eMTB I really hope you feel it adds to the experience! If it does not add to the experience, I hope you will let me know so we can try to improve it.
elem
100 W
The first time i tested EMTb mode was when it was implemented in marcoq achievment using osf v0.19.
It was very hard to get power from the mode with the default parameter .
Soo i changed it a bit and now it s working good for me, in fact in the biginning of the curve i changed it to work like a power mode and ( from 0 to 150w i mean ) and after that it use the torque and the fixed parameter ( 1.1 for me ) and it work diferently than a pure power mode .
it was about the same when i tested a few torque mode from V0.20 OSF, very hard to get power, you had to push hardly on pedal to get power, to much for me, but it was not a good test because my 48V motor don t like exp mode and this was how i tried it .
i thinck that eMTb mode from marcoq was using a kind of torque mode for this mode and probably torque/eMTb mode need a full calibration of the torque sensor ...
I will make some tests with V0.20 asp and i ll be back to give impressions .
thancks to all sharing their own experience, have fun and " carpe diem " .
It was very hard to get power from the mode with the default parameter .
Soo i changed it a bit and now it s working good for me, in fact in the biginning of the curve i changed it to work like a power mode and ( from 0 to 150w i mean ) and after that it use the torque and the fixed parameter ( 1.1 for me ) and it work diferently than a pure power mode .
it was about the same when i tested a few torque mode from V0.20 OSF, very hard to get power, you had to push hardly on pedal to get power, to much for me, but it was not a good test because my 48V motor don t like exp mode and this was how i tried it .
i thinck that eMTb mode from marcoq was using a kind of torque mode for this mode and probably torque/eMTb mode need a full calibration of the torque sensor ...
I will make some tests with V0.20 asp and i ll be back to give impressions .
thancks to all sharing their own experience, have fun and " carpe diem " .
Hi,
it's possibile to have more filtered values in sub-field where it's show the istantaneous Amp absorbed and fill the First character with a symbol like "A" ?
I think it's a good thinks fill, where it's possibile, all the first character of any sub-field ti improve readibility.
Thanks
it's possibile to have more filtered values in sub-field where it's show the istantaneous Amp absorbed and fill the First character with a symbol like "A" ?
I think it's a good thinks fill, where it's possibile, all the first character of any sub-field ti improve readibility.
Thanks
Just to put it there: emtb can be developed with a target wattage. Example: I can push the bike with 100 watt without problem. I have a unit of assist. Another person can push with 200w in the legs without fatigue. He has the half assist. But we are making the same effort. If emtb mode can have a menu for some parameters, curve of the assist could be better. Just a cue to improve something in the mtb mode
jimmyfergus
100 mW
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2018
- Messages
- 49
andrea_104kg said:
I think I want eMTB, though I haven't got to try it yet. This happens all the time:
I'm typically riding at level 3 (default 0.19 config) - it's often about right.
But on an easy section (flat, smooth, perhaps a slight downslope or tailwind) - I find the assist is more than I need; I'm spinning out or I'm actually having to hold back on my pedaling effort to prevent the motor from working, so I shift down to level 2 or 1.
But when I reach an upslope, I put more effort in at level 3, but it's not enough and I'm losing too much speed. I shift to level 4 or even 5 to get up the hill without losing too much speed or working harder than I want to.
eMTB should do this automatically. I don't find the linear power matching is quite right - I think exponential at a power >1 will actually give what I want. Perhaps if I'm putting in 50W I only want another 50W from the engine on an easy cruise, but putting in 200W I want 750W from the motor.
Now, it may be that part of my experience is related to the limitations of the torque sensor that's only really working for the first 30kg or whatever, and casainho's recent effort to give us a calibrated full-range torque sensor will reduce my need to change levels, but I the non-linear assist makes logical sense to me.
Hello,
I see that EMTB is raising a lot of debate because different users have different needs. I think it is impossible to please everyone.
Adding a menu just for configuring EMTB is not a good idea now due to memory limitation.
An idea is to use the EMTB mode as an option used in conjunction with the existing assist levels.
If the normal assist levels provide linear assistance on different angles, the EMTB would provide exponential assistance with more abrupt curves. This way we only need one new param and use the old ones. Hope his helps!
Regards!
I see that EMTB is raising a lot of debate because different users have different needs. I think it is impossible to please everyone.
Adding a menu just for configuring EMTB is not a good idea now due to memory limitation.
An idea is to use the EMTB mode as an option used in conjunction with the existing assist levels.
If the normal assist levels provide linear assistance on different angles, the EMTB would provide exponential assistance with more abrupt curves. This way we only need one new param and use the old ones. Hope his helps!
Regards!
perryscope
100 W
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2019
- Messages
- 122
jimmyfergus said:
I have been testing 0.20.0 for a few days now over the same route focusing on Power mode and eMTB. The main thing I want to add here is that in 0.20.0 the torque sensor range is higher. This means when using assist levels you now feel that each level has more to give when you push harder than you usually do than before.
So for me...
In 0.19.0 I would ride along on the flat in assist level 3 I tend to ride at a higher general cadence say 70 rpm but lower human torque, producing 150 -200W steady pace, Come to a hill and I would push that bit harder, but theirs little left in that assistance so I would have to go up one or two levels, build up speed and then when the track levels out drop down the levels again. so using the assist levels a bit like gears in reverse.
In 0.20.0 i would tend to need a slightly higher assist level to maintain similar 150 -200W steady pace at my similar 70rpm ( lower torque value), Come to a hill and I would push that bit harder, but due to the added torque sensitivity this time there is plenty more available in that assist level and it would easily take me up and over the hill come to the top and i would return to my usual level or torque and it returns to the similar power level.
what this has meant in practice is that i no longer felt the need to have 9 levels or assistance in 0.20.0, as I was only ever using the lowest 3 or 4 in practice.
I have now dropped that to 3 levels (may increase that to 4 for slightly mode granularity) and then i have eMTB on top of that.
So when do I use eMTB mode?
Well to be honest not for the above situation, ie not on the road when you come to a hill but want to keep a steady pace. Instead
its for when you come to the tricky single track stuff, when you need a very quickly responding motor with full range of power. I think of it as a 'focused' mode, by that i mean you use it when your focused on every little direction change and hopping over rocks etc. Your classic Mountain Biking. For that its great. you don't have to touch the assist levels, just ride on one gear and on
the brakes.
Having less assistance levels makes it quicker to jump in and out of eMTB mode as you have less button presses so the overall experience is much cleaner and tailored for the specific rider.
Its quite different to how I had it configured in 0.19.0 but personally so far I prefer it, I may add one more assist level to give me a little more finer control for road riding. but i cannot now ever think why i would need anything like the number of assist levels i was running in 0.19.0 ( 9 )
Similar threads
