Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run
- Thread starter justin_le
- Start date
I just started playing with this new feature on my Mundo + Crystalite 3540 (UFO) front motor.
0.8 Nm (0.78 Amps) looks ok on this motor.
The effect seemed very good and welcome for cruising at low speed on sidewalks but I tested it on a few tens of meters only. More on that later...
Warning : if you go a bit too far with this setting, you will end up with a wheel at max RPM in short order. Be sure your bike support is strong enough to not let the wheel touch the ground ! And prepare to switch off the battery or better, have a hand on your ebrake
0.8 Nm (0.78 Amps) looks ok on this motor.
The effect seemed very good and welcome for cruising at low speed on sidewalks but I tested it on a few tens of meters only. More on that later...
Warning : if you go a bit too far with this setting, you will end up with a wheel at max RPM in short order. Be sure your bike support is strong enough to not let the wheel touch the ground ! And prepare to switch off the battery or better, have a hand on your ebrake
andrebandre
100 W
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2015
- Messages
- 108
justin_le said:
Not sure if "msec" means miliseconds regarding the stall timeout.
I would like to have about 15 seconds of 1.0 Amps mantained after i release the throttle before the current drops to zero.
Ok, I think I've found something annoying :
It seems that the freewheeling feature can be in two modes : active and "sleep".
At boot it's in sleep mode.
As soon as the stall timeout pass, it falls in sleep mode.
To switch from sleep to active, it seems a throttle signal is mandatory. The simple fact that the wheel is spinning above the stall timeout isn't sufficient.
Once it's active, a throttle signal isn't necessary anymore : it will continue to work until a stall is detected.
As is, the freewheeling feature is just for enjoying more natural downhills, but cannot really be used for cycling "without" assistance.
It seems that the freewheeling feature can be in two modes : active and "sleep".
At boot it's in sleep mode.
As soon as the stall timeout pass, it falls in sleep mode.
To switch from sleep to active, it seems a throttle signal is mandatory. The simple fact that the wheel is spinning above the stall timeout isn't sufficient.
Once it's active, a throttle signal isn't necessary anymore : it will continue to work until a stall is detected.
As is, the freewheeling feature is just for enjoying more natural downhills, but cannot really be used for cycling "without" assistance.
Marc S.
100 W
Chopcat said:
The new v1.1 beta versions for macOS and Win are now available from the Phaserunner info page: https://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/phaserunner.html#software-suite
(just found them, might play with them tomorrow)
theblindsaint
1 mW
Hi, I just got a baserunner installed on my bike, and have a few questions about how to set up it up optimally.
My bike set up is a 52 v battery running a 1kw DD drive.
How do I determine what the max flux amps should be?
Some settings in the controller software overlap with the CA3, which one will take priority?
Finally, when I start up the motor while on the bike, there is about a one to two seconds where the motor feels very weak before revving up, is that normal?
My bike set up is a 52 v battery running a 1kw DD drive.
How do I determine what the max flux amps should be?
Some settings in the controller software overlap with the CA3, which one will take priority?
Finally, when I start up the motor while on the bike, there is about a one to two seconds where the motor feels very weak before revving up, is that normal?
Max amps pumped from the battery ("battery amps") should be set according the most restrictive of :
- your battery's specs (something like "continuous discharge") ;
- you controller's specs (baserunner = 30A continuous).
Max amps going from the controller to the motor ("phase amps") should be set according to the most restrictive specification of :
- your motor (ex : Grin advise not to use more than 35-40A with the small Bafang G31x in standard winding)
- the controller (ex : baserunner is said to be good for 30-35A phase without going into thermal rollback mode)
- the connector used between motor and controller (ex : ~60A with Andersons, 30-40A for HiGo Z910)
- the wiring specs (usually the least restrictive, at least for ebikes still looking more or less like bikes ... )
> Some settings in the controller software overlap with the CA3, which one will take priority?
The most restrictive. But there's only a few of them.
- your battery's specs (something like "continuous discharge") ;
- you controller's specs (baserunner = 30A continuous).
Max amps going from the controller to the motor ("phase amps") should be set according to the most restrictive specification of :
- your motor (ex : Grin advise not to use more than 35-40A with the small Bafang G31x in standard winding)
- the controller (ex : baserunner is said to be good for 30-35A phase without going into thermal rollback mode)
- the connector used between motor and controller (ex : ~60A with Andersons, 30-40A for HiGo Z910)
- the wiring specs (usually the least restrictive, at least for ebikes still looking more or less like bikes ... )
> Some settings in the controller software overlap with the CA3, which one will take priority?
The most restrictive. But there's only a few of them.
airgee said:
Correct with everything but on this one point there's no harm at all in allowing the controller itself to go into thermal rollback and limit its max phase current on its own. So even though the continuous phase current of the baserunner will be limited to 30-35A depending on air flow, in almost all cases we'd suggest leaving the limit setting at the maximum 55A so that you have the full torque available for accelerating or for short steep hills.
The main case we've really seen where it needs to be reduced on the baserunner is to avoid stripping the gears inside smaller geared hub motors. For that if you want to play it safe we recommend looking at the rated maximum motor torque from the manufacturer, and then adjust the max phase amps until the associated Nm torque number matches. The guy inquiring has a DD hub so this wouldn't come into play.
In addition to the considerations given by Airgee on the connector and cable gauge, there is also one other consideration that can come into play which is the spinout torque on the dropouts. If you don't have a well installed torque arm then you might want to reduce the phase current to keep axle spinout risks at bay. Even with steel dropouts you can spin a 12mm axle with 40-50Nm of torque, see
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14195&start=100#p220366
and for similar tests with motors that used round axles and a tabbed washer:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=93562&start=100#p1374044
If you are using a small geared motor with a tabbed washer in an aluminum fork, then the spinout happens a little over 40 Nm and to have some margin you'd probably want to set a max phase current to limit the motor to like 25 Nm.
Hey everyone, there is a newer V1.1 beta software that is getting very close to having all desired features of the V1.1 release code and I'd love to have some people testing it out too. We have the windows build available here
http://www.ebikes.ca/downloads/PhaserunnerSuite-windows-v1.1.0b6.7z.exe
MacOS will be ready very soon too, and we're working hard to have an Android port sorted not long after that.
[EDIT: Now available here:
https://www.ebikes.ca/downloads/PhaserunnerSuite-macos-v1.1.0b6.dmg.zip ]
Here are 3 the major updates
1) Ability to Fetch Default Profiles for Multiple Motors. There have been a few suggestions that we should compile nicely tuned XML files for a number of motor types but we never got organized in a system for that so in this release we've built it right into the software itself. Click the "Import Defaults" button.
This brings up a window that lets you pick a setup of parameter defaults based on a motor manufacturer and model. There's a button to download these default parameter files from our webs server where you can pick and choose the ones that interest you
And after you've done that, then they stay in a local folder in the install directory of the software and can be selected from the dropdown menu.
Then it pre-populates all the fields with values that are appropriate for the motor so that in theory you could just run the setup trouble free, no need for autotune or anything. This default parameters list is a work in progress through, so we'll continue to tweak and refine the settings as we gain more insight and experience, and we can also include user submitted parameter settings for all kinds of other motors and setups.
2) Better Hall Mapping and Autotune Process We've done a lot of changes to give better visibility in what's going on with the hall mapping during the spinning autotune process and have fixed a number of situations that used to simply report 'hall error' without being more specific. Now it actually displays the map of what hall state is present at each rotor position during the spin test, and then you can see this in the dashboard view too.
It will now also work fine with 60 degree hall timing too. You can see then that the hall states 000 and 111 are both assigned to rotor positions rather than being blank.
3) Updated Variable Names and Address Sorting
We've also changed the names on a number of the parameters so that they are more sensibly grouped in the parameter listing, and have also added a separate "sort by address" option when viewing parameters which can speed up finding specific settings
Previously too on the Dev Screen all the communication between the controller and software was being shown in HEX format, while now we have it showing all the read data in parsed into english instead and then you can choose the hex view if you want.
It also gives an option to highlight and display all of the unsaved variables. This can be especially handy when you are loading on a new settings file over an existing phaserunner/baserunner since you can see a list of exactly what parameters are going to be changed if you save the settings.
Anyways we're hoping that these improvements go a long way to helping with the usability of the phaserunner/baserunner controller line and will appreciate any feedback.
http://www.ebikes.ca/downloads/PhaserunnerSuite-windows-v1.1.0b6.7z.exe
MacOS will be ready very soon too, and we're working hard to have an Android port sorted not long after that.
[EDIT: Now available here:
https://www.ebikes.ca/downloads/PhaserunnerSuite-macos-v1.1.0b6.dmg.zip ]
Here are 3 the major updates
1) Ability to Fetch Default Profiles for Multiple Motors. There have been a few suggestions that we should compile nicely tuned XML files for a number of motor types but we never got organized in a system for that so in this release we've built it right into the software itself. Click the "Import Defaults" button.
This brings up a window that lets you pick a setup of parameter defaults based on a motor manufacturer and model. There's a button to download these default parameter files from our webs server where you can pick and choose the ones that interest you
And after you've done that, then they stay in a local folder in the install directory of the software and can be selected from the dropdown menu.
Then it pre-populates all the fields with values that are appropriate for the motor so that in theory you could just run the setup trouble free, no need for autotune or anything. This default parameters list is a work in progress through, so we'll continue to tweak and refine the settings as we gain more insight and experience, and we can also include user submitted parameter settings for all kinds of other motors and setups.
2) Better Hall Mapping and Autotune Process We've done a lot of changes to give better visibility in what's going on with the hall mapping during the spinning autotune process and have fixed a number of situations that used to simply report 'hall error' without being more specific. Now it actually displays the map of what hall state is present at each rotor position during the spin test, and then you can see this in the dashboard view too.
It will now also work fine with 60 degree hall timing too. You can see then that the hall states 000 and 111 are both assigned to rotor positions rather than being blank.
3) Updated Variable Names and Address Sorting
We've also changed the names on a number of the parameters so that they are more sensibly grouped in the parameter listing, and have also added a separate "sort by address" option when viewing parameters which can speed up finding specific settings
Previously too on the Dev Screen all the communication between the controller and software was being shown in HEX format, while now we have it showing all the read data in parsed into english instead and then you can choose the hex view if you want.
It also gives an option to highlight and display all of the unsaved variables. This can be especially handy when you are loading on a new settings file over an existing phaserunner/baserunner since you can see a list of exactly what parameters are going to be changed if you save the settings.
Anyways we're hoping that these improvements go a long way to helping with the usability of the phaserunner/baserunner controller line and will appreciate any feedback.
mrbill
10 kW
Hey Justin:
I think it's great that you and your team have been improving the Phaserunner Software Suite.
Some time ago I think I asked if the Suite could be used to program some of the other ASI controllers, such as the BAC2000 (non-bluetooth) as sold by Grin a few years ago. At the time you (or Robby) thought it could not be used to program ASI's other controllers. I think I may have tried unsuccessfully to do so. I was able to get BACDoor to do what I wanted, so I didn't pursue the matter further.
But, because you've added some interesting functionality to the latest Suite that I would be interested in trying, I'll ask again...
Can one program one of ASI's other controllers (such as the BAC2000) with the latest version of the Phaserunner Software Suite?
Thanks.
I think it's great that you and your team have been improving the Phaserunner Software Suite.
Some time ago I think I asked if the Suite could be used to program some of the other ASI controllers, such as the BAC2000 (non-bluetooth) as sold by Grin a few years ago. At the time you (or Robby) thought it could not be used to program ASI's other controllers. I think I may have tried unsuccessfully to do so. I was able to get BACDoor to do what I wanted, so I didn't pursue the matter further.
But, because you've added some interesting functionality to the latest Suite that I would be interested in trying, I'll ask again...
Can one program one of ASI's other controllers (such as the BAC2000) with the latest version of the Phaserunner Software Suite?
Thanks.
mrbill said:
Out of the box, no. But if you already have bacdoor installed then in principle it is possible to update the firmware on your BAC2000 to have the same customized firmware we have on the Phaserunner/Baserunner devices, and then the suite would connect to it OK. Though it might also clamp some settings (like the maximum phase amps) more than necessary. We have it automatically detecting if it's a Phaserunner or Baserunner connected and scaling the limits for max voltage and currents accordingly, but haven't vetted that functionality with higher amperage devices.
If you're interested to try this then follow up via email.
Aerialpixels
10 mW
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2017
- Messages
- 20
Tested the freewheel option on the beta software. Set to 2.0 amps this feature when combined with BBSHD mid drive does a phenomenal job at keeping chain tension for smooth acceleration both from a stop and coasting. When coming to a stop it instantly senses the stall current and disengages. Awesome feature that significantly improved drivability.
3amp was too much... When braking I could tell it was working against me.
Also on a Mac. This version works well!
Thank Justin. Amazing
3amp was too much... When braking I could tell it was working against me.
Also on a Mac. This version works well!
Thank Justin. Amazing
theblindsaint
1 mW
I've tried changing the field weakening current, but am not seeing any increase to either top no load speed or no-load draw (aounrd 1 A even at >50%). I have a baserunner, and was wondering why it seems like the FOC setting isn;t registering?
I can't get the virtual freewheel function to work. The motor doesn't even make the humming noise of just before starting to spin.
Any help guys? What am I missing? Is it a software update I'm missing? maybe special parameter permissions?
Attached id the config file and a video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CWmhBLO-vU
Any help guys? What am I missing? Is it a software update I'm missing? maybe special parameter permissions?
Attached id the config file and a video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CWmhBLO-vU
justin_le said:
Tried the freewheel feature in the beta software. Works great so far. I did notice that the Motor Stall Timeout field is labeled in msec, but it isn't milliseconds (set to 250, I could hear the hum for longer than one second when testing).
Avner.
Went on an extended ride yesterday and discovered a small issue with the electric freewheel feature.
While standing stationary, if the bike rolls backwards then the electric freewheel activates. I guess it is triggered by any movement in the motor regardless of direction. I think it should only activate by forward motion.
Avner.
While standing stationary, if the bike rolls backwards then the electric freewheel activates. I guess it is triggered by any movement in the motor regardless of direction. I think it should only activate by forward motion.
Avner.
pomah
10 W
sh33p said:
I have been running one for over 3 years without halls connected no issues, you do need to "kick start" it thou.
Hello all,
I've been using the freewheel function on the phase runner. Makes me feel like I'm always gliding downhill which is great. However I noticed that's a very high pitch whine that occurs whenever the motor is producing power. It's not very noticeable over wind noise but it is easily picked up on camera. Is there some setting or parameter that can minimize this sound?
I've been using the freewheel function on the phase runner. Makes me feel like I'm always gliding downhill which is great. However I noticed that's a very high pitch whine that occurs whenever the motor is producing power. It's not very noticeable over wind noise but it is easily picked up on camera. Is there some setting or parameter that can minimize this sound?
Hi there, just installed my PR v2, and i have a few Q'.
Problem I have is, the controller "times out" if the motor runs backwards, at start, EQ im too heavy or on a hill, and it ignores throttle input.
This only happens when i have mode 0 or 1 "halls" on. And the time out is about 1s.
I have tryed to look up in the setting values,and found nothing, and "Motor Stall Timeout" under VEF is not the rigth value.
The motor is a geared hub motor.
The obvius is the only run it in sensorless mode, but i dont like startup in that mode, too jurky.
Is there anyway to limit the time the controller timesout or disable it, as it dosent do that in sensorless mode ?
And why is it doing that, when rolls backwards.
I have a few other controllers, and none of those do this.
Problem I have is, the controller "times out" if the motor runs backwards, at start, EQ im too heavy or on a hill, and it ignores throttle input.
This only happens when i have mode 0 or 1 "halls" on. And the time out is about 1s.
I have tryed to look up in the setting values,and found nothing, and "Motor Stall Timeout" under VEF is not the rigth value.
The motor is a geared hub motor.
The obvius is the only run it in sensorless mode, but i dont like startup in that mode, too jurky.
Is there anyway to limit the time the controller timesout or disable it, as it dosent do that in sensorless mode ?
And why is it doing that, when rolls backwards.
I have a few other controllers, and none of those do this.
clarsengrin
1 µW
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2019
- Messages
- 2
Hi Xorin,
The behaivour you are experiencing is due to you likely having the regen current to 0 amps. ASI's firmware, for some reason, requires that to be a nonzero value in order to power the motor while it's rolling backwards. Putting in even 1 amp for this setting should resolve your problem. Even if you don't have regen in your system, it's recommended to set the regen current to a nonzero value.
The behaivour you are experiencing is due to you likely having the regen current to 0 amps. ASI's firmware, for some reason, requires that to be a nonzero value in order to power the motor while it's rolling backwards. Putting in even 1 amp for this setting should resolve your problem. Even if you don't have regen in your system, it's recommended to set the regen current to a nonzero value.
clarsengrin
1 µW
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2019
- Messages
- 2
niwrad said:
Perhaps the mic gain on your camera? :wink:
You could play with the switching frequency setting on the controller (address #2 in the custom parameter edit), however do note that this is entirely untested behaivour and has the potential to have adverse effects and may damage your controller.
OneBadWolf
10 mW
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2017
- Messages
- 22
amberwolf said:
X-Ray before acid.
Hi, I just tried using the field weakening feature and got a phase over current fault. the motor made a wooo wooo sound then the system cut out. Im new to ebikes. I can follow instructions but have a very limited understanding of electronics and learning as I go.
I have an Ezee rear hub, Sempu TS, CA3, Phaserunner, and a 52v 16ah 14s5p MH1 battery. Purchased in July.
The bike is a commuter and my rides are interval training rides. I built the bike to pedal as hard as possible and have a 45 minute or less ride from port moody to north van and back. 52 km round trip with some tough hills for the battery. I did get the 40 to 45 kmh average speed I wanted but within a few weeks I started having a voltage sag issue when pedaling as hard as I want to. I have 6 power levels but use L2 as the others will drain the battery too fast. I have a throttle but rarely use it and never to ride without pedaling.
over the summer with the original settings Amax 30 in the CA3 and 33.3 in the Phaserunner I could spin my top gear out on downhills and see the CA3 reading as high as 66 kmh. 55km was easy to get to.
I started having range issues and was advised to lower the CA3 Amax to under 30. I had the Amax set to28 but it could still over shoot to 30. I could also still pedal it up to 55 kmh on the downhills.
In October the my original motor was replaced with a new Ezee and going through the fall to date Dec 12/19 I really have to slow my pedaling down and manage the voltage sag to not hit the LVC part way across the barnett hwy. I did reduce the Amax to 23 to keep the amps below 25 as recommended. This made a noticeable drag on the motor and I could not get the CA3 to read faster than 50 kmh but it and strava both had max speed ratings of about 54 kmh at the end of the rides.
I am now going to charge at work so my Amax is back to the original 30 phaserunner is at its original max amps 33.3. Test rides today I got it up to 51 kmh on st Johns on a modest DH sprint.
What I am trying to do is get the motor to spin freely when the assist cuts out at about 50 kmh on the downhill sprints. I don't need the motor to sustain the speed but I need it to not the drag that is holding me back.
I tried doing field weakening. I put 1 amp in that field. I did one throttle pass it spun up to 47 kmh, very good but on the second pass the motor made a wooo wooo sound when I throttled and it cut out with an over phase current fault. I reset and lowered the FW field to .5A it worked fine pedaling up to 51 kmh I reset it to .90 A and that works up to 51 kmh but feels the same so far as with no field weakening. I was told I could use 10% to 20% of the max amps setting in the PR but not sure if I understood that.
Im also wondering if the freewheeling feature would help the motor spin more freely when it maxes out at 50 kmh too and what setting to use in that field.
Sorry this is long Im thought the info would be needed for an answer. Thanks for your help.
Dave
I have an Ezee rear hub, Sempu TS, CA3, Phaserunner, and a 52v 16ah 14s5p MH1 battery. Purchased in July.
The bike is a commuter and my rides are interval training rides. I built the bike to pedal as hard as possible and have a 45 minute or less ride from port moody to north van and back. 52 km round trip with some tough hills for the battery. I did get the 40 to 45 kmh average speed I wanted but within a few weeks I started having a voltage sag issue when pedaling as hard as I want to. I have 6 power levels but use L2 as the others will drain the battery too fast. I have a throttle but rarely use it and never to ride without pedaling.
over the summer with the original settings Amax 30 in the CA3 and 33.3 in the Phaserunner I could spin my top gear out on downhills and see the CA3 reading as high as 66 kmh. 55km was easy to get to.
I started having range issues and was advised to lower the CA3 Amax to under 30. I had the Amax set to28 but it could still over shoot to 30. I could also still pedal it up to 55 kmh on the downhills.
In October the my original motor was replaced with a new Ezee and going through the fall to date Dec 12/19 I really have to slow my pedaling down and manage the voltage sag to not hit the LVC part way across the barnett hwy. I did reduce the Amax to 23 to keep the amps below 25 as recommended. This made a noticeable drag on the motor and I could not get the CA3 to read faster than 50 kmh but it and strava both had max speed ratings of about 54 kmh at the end of the rides.
I am now going to charge at work so my Amax is back to the original 30 phaserunner is at its original max amps 33.3. Test rides today I got it up to 51 kmh on st Johns on a modest DH sprint.
What I am trying to do is get the motor to spin freely when the assist cuts out at about 50 kmh on the downhill sprints. I don't need the motor to sustain the speed but I need it to not the drag that is holding me back.
I tried doing field weakening. I put 1 amp in that field. I did one throttle pass it spun up to 47 kmh, very good but on the second pass the motor made a wooo wooo sound when I throttled and it cut out with an over phase current fault. I reset and lowered the FW field to .5A it worked fine pedaling up to 51 kmh I reset it to .90 A and that works up to 51 kmh but feels the same so far as with no field weakening. I was told I could use 10% to 20% of the max amps setting in the PR but not sure if I understood that.
Im also wondering if the freewheeling feature would help the motor spin more freely when it maxes out at 50 kmh too and what setting to use in that field.
Sorry this is long Im thought the info would be needed for an answer. Thanks for your help.
Dave
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