New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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r0mko   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 21
Joined: Jan 20 2017 8:06pm

Torque sensor totally destroyed

Post by r0mko » Sep 11 2019 1:59pm

Hi folks,
last Saturday my good old TSDZ2 with nearly 11000 km of mileage passed away in surprisingly brutal manner. I missed a pothole on a forest road and fell from my bike over the chain side. Nothing serious happened to me, just a couple of minor scratches. I continued my trip but noticed that I've lost torque sensing: the motor always applied full power regardless of how strong I push pedals. After restart I've lost any assistance at all and continued my trip ride home on my own. I also noticed an unusual creaking sound and wobbling of the sprocket. After few kilometres sounds became worse, like metal against metal grinding, my pedals locked and eventually bang! The pedals became totally free , I can rotate them in either direction with no effect. First thought was that the sprag clutch has broken. But today I've opened my motor and realised that the situation is much worse. The lower coil and the magnet has been ground into total mess, the torque sensor broke into two parts, everything is covered with mix of magnet debris and grease.
IMG_6246.jpg
IMG_6246.jpg (496.62 KiB) Viewed 914 times
IMG_6248.jpg
IMG_6248.jpg (392.13 KiB) Viewed 914 times
IMG_6247.jpg
IMG_6247.jpg (390.13 KiB) Viewed 914 times
IMG_6249.jpg
IMG_6249.jpg (505.06 KiB) Viewed 914 times
Surprisingly though that the axle is not bent
IMG_6253.jpg
IMG_6253.jpg (476.2 KiB) Viewed 914 times
Even the shaft has grooves inside
IMG_6251.jpg
IMG_6251.jpg (436.8 KiB) Viewed 914 times
IMG_6253.jpg
IMG_6253.jpg (476.2 KiB) Viewed 914 times


So I considered this damage as unrecoverable and ordered a brand new 48V TSDZ2, Bafang 850C display and a 52V 15Ah battery. As you might have guessed, I'm going to flash the OpenSource firmware onto it.

That's my sad story, folks. Don't fall from your bike, at least try not to fall on the right side.

RicMcK   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 44
Joined: Jun 19 2019 9:12am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RicMcK » Sep 11 2019 8:33pm

emr wrote:
Sep 11 2019 4:37am
mctubster wrote:
Sep 10 2019 8:18pm
RicMcK wrote:
Sep 10 2019 6:43pm
Headlight circuit? I tried to wier up my 6VDC LED headlight, and it seems like the headlight circuit has a current limiter.
48v 750W+LCD3 v0.190 FW.
My light draws about 1.5A @6VDC. When I connect it to the light circuit the light flashes, but will not stay lit. Does anyone know if there is a current limit on the headlight circuit? If yes what is it?
My lights are currently drawing 3.0W. I saw people talking about a 1A limit, so perhaps 6W?

To casainho's point, the converter on paper is limited to 0.5A output. It might be able to do more that 0.5A without tripping at lower supply voltages and lower output voltages, but on paper limited to 3W output. Consider a FET as a switch assuming your light can use the high battery voltage
I connected a 60v to 12v dc/dc 10A converter...
DcDcConverter.png
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DC-DC-Conve ... 2336048116

to my 52v battery, and purchased 12 volt multi flash mode tail light...
Taillight.png
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6000LM-2-X- ... 2172925525

and multi mode very bright flashing headlight...
1Headlight.jpg
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2x-Waterpro ... 4275640369

The headlight is USB so theoretically 5v, but works fine on 12 volt. Please test first with resistor in series to avoid the smoke escaping.

from Ebay.
Thanks this will work (tested 12vdc, on existing light).
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/d0P4gXu4
Rick Seattle WA

dameri   100 W

100 W
Posts: 114
Joined: Sep 20 2018 10:57am

Re: Torque sensor totally destroyed

Post by dameri » Sep 12 2019 12:57am

r0mko wrote:
Sep 11 2019 1:59pm
Hi folks,
last Saturday my good old TSDZ2 with nearly 11000 km of mileage passed away in surprisingly brutal manner. I missed a pothole on a forest road and fell from my bike over the chain side. Nothing serious happened to me, just a couple of minor scratches. I continued my trip but noticed that I've lost torque sensing: the motor always applied full power regardless of how strong I push pedals. After restart I've lost any assistance at all and continued my trip ride home on my own. I also noticed an unusual creaking sound and wobbling of the sprocket. After few kilometres sounds became worse, like metal against metal grinding, my pedals locked and eventually bang! The pedals became totally free , I can rotate them in either direction with no effect. First thought was that the sprag clutch has broken. But today I've opened my motor and realised that the situation is much worse. The lower coil and the magnet has been ground into total mess, the torque sensor broke into two parts, everything is covered with mix of magnet debris and grease.
IMG_6246.jpg
IMG_6248.jpg
IMG_6247.jpg
IMG_6249.jpg

Surprisingly though that the axle is not bent
IMG_6253.jpg

Even the shaft has grooves inside
IMG_6251.jpg
IMG_6253.jpg

So I considered this damage as unrecoverable and ordered a brand new 48V TSDZ2, Bafang 850C display and a 52V 15Ah battery. As you might have guessed, I'm going to flash the OpenSource firmware onto it.

That's my sad story, folks. Don't fall from your bike, at least try not to fall on the right side.
I think however 11000 km is a good achievement for TSDZ2.

mctubster   100 W

100 W
Posts: 174
Joined: Feb 26 2018 6:21am

Re: Torque sensor totally destroyed

Post by mctubster » Sep 12 2019 1:16am

dameri wrote:
Sep 12 2019 12:57am
r0mko wrote:
Sep 11 2019 1:59pm
Hi folks,
last Saturday my good old TSDZ2 with nearly 11000 km of mileage passed away in surprisingly brutal manner. I missed a pothole on a forest road and fell from my bike over the chain side. Nothing serious happened to me, just a couple of minor scratches. I continued my trip but noticed that I've lost torque sensing: the motor always applied full power regardless of how strong I push pedals. After restart I've lost any assistance at all and continued my trip ride home on my own. I also noticed an unusual creaking sound and wobbling of the sprocket. After few kilometres sounds became worse, like metal against metal grinding, my pedals locked and eventually bang! The pedals became totally free , I can rotate them in either direction with no effect. First thought was that the sprag clutch has broken. But today I've opened my motor and realised that the situation is much worse. The lower coil and the magnet has been ground into total mess, the torque sensor broke into two parts, everything is covered with mix of magnet debris and grease.
IMG_6246.jpg
IMG_6248.jpg
IMG_6247.jpg
IMG_6249.jpg

Surprisingly though that the axle is not bent
IMG_6253.jpg

Even the shaft has grooves inside
IMG_6251.jpg
IMG_6253.jpg

So I considered this damage as unrecoverable and ordered a brand new 48V TSDZ2, Bafang 850C display and a 52V 15Ah battery. As you might have guessed, I'm going to flash the OpenSource firmware onto it.

That's my sad story, folks. Don't fall from your bike, at least try not to fall on the right side.
I think however 11000 km is a good achievement for TSDZ2.
I think 11000 km is an amazing distance given the price point unless it had been serviced regularly?

User avatar
eyebyesickle   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 678
Joined: Apr 07 2015 9:28pm
Location: Nashville

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Sep 12 2019 1:28am

mctubster wrote:
Sep 10 2019 8:18pm
RicMcK wrote:
Sep 10 2019 6:43pm
Headlight circuit? I tried to wier up my 6VDC LED headlight, and it seems like the headlight circuit has a current limiter.
48v 750W+LCD3 v0.190 FW.
My light draws about 1.5A @6VDC. When I connect it to the light circuit the light flashes, but will not stay lit. Does anyone know if there is a current limit on the headlight circuit? If yes what is it?
My lights are currently drawing 3.0W. I saw people talking about a 1A limit, so perhaps 6W?

To casainho's point, the converter on paper is limited to 0.5A output. It might be able to do more that 0.5A without tripping at lower supply voltages and lower output voltages, but on paper limited to 3W output. Consider a FET as a switch assuming your light can use the high battery voltage
You can also consider wiring an internal relay!


emr   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 37
Joined: Apr 22 2018 5:37am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by emr » Sep 12 2019 3:43am

RicMcK wrote:
Sep 11 2019 8:33pm
emr wrote:
Sep 11 2019 4:37am
mctubster wrote:
Sep 10 2019 8:18pm
RicMcK wrote:
Sep 10 2019 6:43pm
Headlight circuit? I tried to wier up my 6VDC LED headlight, and it seems like the headlight circuit has a current limiter.
48v 750W+LCD3 v0.190 FW.
My light draws about 1.5A @6VDC. When I connect it to the light circuit the light flashes, but will not stay lit. Does anyone know if there is a current limit on the headlight circuit? If yes what is it?
My lights are currently drawing 3.0W. I saw people talking about a 1A limit, so perhaps 6W?

To casainho's point, the converter on paper is limited to 0.5A output. It might be able to do more that 0.5A without tripping at lower supply voltages and lower output voltages, but on paper limited to 3W output. Consider a FET as a switch assuming your light can use the high battery voltage
I connected a 60v to 12v dc/dc 10A converter...
DcDcConverter.png
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DC-DC-Conve ... 2336048116

to my 52v battery, and purchased 12 volt multi flash mode tail light...
Taillight.png
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6000LM-2-X- ... 2172925525

and multi mode very bright flashing headlight...
1Headlight.jpg
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2x-Waterpro ... 4275640369

The headlight is USB so theoretically 5v, but works fine on 12 volt. Please test first with resistor in series to avoid the smoke escaping.

from Ebay.
Thanks this will work (tested 12vdc, on existing light).
https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/d0P4gXu4
Just be aware that the type of converter you have linked to are rated as Max 3A, and are not able to supply that current continuously. Likely only around 1.5A to 2A continuous.

RicMcK   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 44
Joined: Jun 19 2019 9:12am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RicMcK » Sep 12 2019 10:52am

Thanks. I only need 1.4A at high power so I think I will be OK. I will try it and see what happens. :)
Rick Seattle WA

r0mko   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 21
Joined: Jan 20 2017 8:06pm

Re: Torque sensor totally destroyed

Post by r0mko » Sep 12 2019 10:58am

mctubster wrote:
Sep 12 2019 1:16am
dameri wrote:
Sep 12 2019 12:57am
r0mko wrote:
Sep 11 2019 1:59pm
Hi folks,
last Saturday my good old TSDZ2 with nearly 11000 km of mileage passed away in surprisingly brutal manner. I missed a pothole on a forest road and fell from my bike over the chain side. Nothing serious happened to me, just a couple of minor scratches. I continued my trip but noticed that I've lost torque sensing: the motor always applied full power regardless of how strong I push pedals. After restart I've lost any assistance at all and continued my trip ride home on my own. I also noticed an unusual creaking sound and wobbling of the sprocket. After few kilometres sounds became worse, like metal against metal grinding, my pedals locked and eventually bang! The pedals became totally free , I can rotate them in either direction with no effect. First thought was that the sprag clutch has broken. But today I've opened my motor and realised that the situation is much worse. The lower coil and the magnet has been ground into total mess, the torque sensor broke into two parts, everything is covered with mix of magnet debris and grease.
IMG_6246.jpg
IMG_6248.jpg
IMG_6247.jpg
IMG_6249.jpg

Surprisingly though that the axle is not bent
IMG_6253.jpg

Even the shaft has grooves inside
IMG_6251.jpg
IMG_6253.jpg

So I considered this damage as unrecoverable and ordered a brand new 48V TSDZ2, Bafang 850C display and a 52V 15Ah battery. As you might have guessed, I'm going to flash the OpenSource firmware onto it.

That's my sad story, folks. Don't fall from your bike, at least try not to fall on the right side.
I think however 11000 km is a good achievement for TSDZ2.
I think 11000 km is an amazing distance given the price point unless it had been serviced regularly?
Of course I did some maintenance and once replaced a broken sprag clutch (that was epic BTW: gas torch, lots of heat and ice bucket). But nothing really special, just open once a year and regrease everything.

knutselmaaster   100 W

100 W
Posts: 264
Joined: Apr 05 2014 6:50am
Location: near Paris, France

Re: Torque sensor totally destroyed

Post by knutselmaaster » Sep 12 2019 1:18pm

r0mko wrote:
Sep 12 2019 10:58am

Of course I did some maintenance and once replaced a broken sprag clutch (that was epic BTW: gas torch, lots of heat and ice bucket). But nothing really special, just open once a year and regrease everything.
Could you please tell me what grease you used?

r0mko   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 21
Joined: Jan 20 2017 8:06pm

Re: Torque sensor totally destroyed

Post by r0mko » Sep 12 2019 4:51pm

knutselmaaster wrote:
Sep 12 2019 1:18pm
Could you please tell me what grease you used?
XY-2 from AliExpress. No complaints so far.
Image

mgtroyas   10 µW

10 µW
Posts: 5
Joined: Oct 11 2018 10:24am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mgtroyas » Sep 13 2019 3:25am

bergerandfries wrote:
Aug 28 2019 8:43pm
feketehegyi wrote:
Aug 27 2019 1:48pm
mgtroyas wrote:
Aug 27 2019 10:06am
Hello all,

I've been enjoying my TSDZ2 daily on my classic 90s steel 26" MTB for more than a year now, for daily commuting. It's a great motor. But a problem has slowly arised and now it's becoming frustrating. I hope somebody cand point what the origin could be. It's the 2018 350W 36V model with xh18 controller and no brake sensors. I use it with a 36V 20Ah battery.
...
Hello, sounds like problem with main gear - sprag clutch bearing. The problem on mine was not visible, but after I replaced it's been felt again as a new motor.
Blue gear should be also checked. That's visible if blue gear has problem.
I have videos how I replaced both of them on my youtube channel.
I have the same, very rare issue. Do you know the mechanism for the sprag clutch bearing failure causing this? Is it kind of like a positive feedback loop where the sticking bearing continues to apply torque to the shaft and the torque sensor senses torque even though the rider isn't applying pressure to the pedals?
Hi all,

After a couple of weeks the motor finally refused to work no matter what pedal I engaged first. It always revs to max speed instantly. So I bit the bullet. Opened it guided by the videos (thank you very much!). Everything looked ok but I did two things:
- Replace the blue gear with a replacement (also nylon). The gear didn't show any wear, no broken or shorter dents. But I dismounted the metal bearing and it seemed to have slightly greater play than the brand new.
- Add lithium grey grease to all the parts, perhaps white lithium grease would be better, but that's what I had.

I'd bet the problem was in the bearing, allowing some play of the blue gear axis. Now that I'm confident with the operation I'll try to buy the bearing and replace it only next time.

Perhaps some regreasing was also needed. It had 3000km of daily use after all.

I've commuted this morning and the motor hasn't failed a single time. We'll see how much it lasts. Anyway I had forgotten how reliable this motor was! Perhaps it's also slightly quieter now.

maximusdm   10 W

10 W
Posts: 67
Joined: Sep 08 2018 12:51pm

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by maximusdm » Sep 16 2019 3:19pm

Hello,

I got some slack in the chainring from the motor. Are there any solutions for this?




Thanks!

hetm4n   100 µW

100 µW
Posts: 7
Joined: Aug 29 2019 6:30am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hetm4n » Sep 16 2019 4:42pm

How to change time clock on kt lcd3 with open firmware?

microchip7000   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 3
Joined: Jan 21 2019 2:16am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by microchip7000 » Sep 17 2019 4:20am

hello maximusdm, I recently had the same defect and noticed the same game of the axis. On another bike, there is none.
Non-centered chain type noise does it when I press hard. But I have not yet dismantled to see what it depends on

maximusdm   10 W

10 W
Posts: 67
Joined: Sep 08 2018 12:51pm

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by maximusdm » Sep 17 2019 6:13am

From what I managed to check, the slack originates from the clutch bearing from main gear. But any feedback is welcome.

Nfer   10 µW

10 µW
Posts: 6
Joined: Sep 17 2019 6:51am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Nfer » Sep 17 2019 7:08am

Hi! Yesterday I did my best to install the motor on a Trek Fx2 but I was not able to install the back bolt attachment. There is no room for it between the bike chain stays and the bolt support.

Is there any alternative?
Potential issues if I run the motor without it?

jimmyfergus   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 39
Joined: Jul 17 2018 4:19pm

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jimmyfergus » Sep 17 2019 7:46am

Nfer wrote:
Sep 17 2019 7:08am
Hi! Yesterday I did my best to install the motor on a Trek Fx2 but I was not able to install the back bolt attachment. There is no room for it between the bike chain stays and the bolt support.

Is there any alternative?
Potential issues if I run the motor without it?
The bracket is to counteract the torque wanting to rotate the motor forwards. If you just rotate it all the way forward until it's resting against the frame and tighten the lock ring in that position, you don't need the bolt support. Ideally, stick some padding (bit of inner tube or other rubber for instance) between motor case and frame.

I did have my lockring come loose in that configuration, but I can't be sure if that was a failure of my tightening or that I didn't put any thread locker on it. That wasn't catastrophic anyway, I just had to re-tighten.

dogmabike   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 1
Joined: Sep 13 2019 7:29am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dogmabike » Sep 17 2019 8:44am

maximusdm wrote:
Sep 17 2019 6:13am
From what I managed to check, the slack originates from the clutch bearing from main gear. But any feedback is welcome.
I'm also seeing the same play. I thought it might be play in the axle but I need to dismantle to confirm if the sprag clutch bearing is the cause. Not very many miles on my motor at all so a bit of concern.

The older version motors look to have copper shims behind and in front of that clutch bearing to take out any play in the axle, whereas the new ones do not. I'm not sure if this is causing in / out movement too and contributing to the problem.

You'll see the shims I'm referring to in this video which explains how to replace the bearing too. The bearing doesn't look too expensive. It's a CSK30P and looks to be around 10-20 GBP depending on where you buy from...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-SY0rGMEMo

The description here also shows the old one as using them...

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3301076 ... b201603_53

It looks like all the motors have an element of play in this location, but comparing two motors mine has more play. The other motor is (I think) an older style so likely has shims and has done more distance.

Would be interested to know what you find out?
Last edited by dogmabike on Sep 17 2019 8:55am, edited 1 time in total.

rba   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 3
Joined: Feb 11 2019 8:48am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by rba » Sep 17 2019 8:54am

Hi,

I replaced the sprag cluch on my engine but it turns out the play is between the inner race of the sprag and the axle. The problem is that the fit of the sprag on axle is loose and the presence of the key makes it even looser. I'm working on a key that can be expanded to fix the sprag better to the axle. I tried shimming between sprag and axle, but was not successful with the materials available.

Regards,
Rba

Nfer   10 µW

10 µW
Posts: 6
Joined: Sep 17 2019 6:51am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Nfer » Sep 17 2019 10:49am

jimmyfergus wrote:
Sep 17 2019 7:46am

The bracket is to counteract the torque wanting to rotate the motor forwards. If you just rotate it all the way forward until it's resting against the frame and tighten the lock ring in that position, you don't need the bolt support. Ideally, stick some padding (bit of inner tube or other rubber for instance) between motor case and frame.

I did have my lockring come loose in that configuration, but I can't be sure if that was a failure of my tightening or that I didn't put any thread locker on it. That wasn't catastrophic anyway, I just had to re-tighten.
Thanks!

Nick2   10 µW

10 µW
Posts: 5
Joined: May 29 2019 4:31pm

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Nick2 » Sep 17 2019 2:59pm

Nfer wrote:
Sep 17 2019 7:08am
Hi! Yesterday I did my best to install the motor on a Trek Fx2 but I was not able to install the back bolt attachment. There is no room for it between the bike chain stays and the bolt support.

Is there any alternative?
Potential issues if I run the motor without it?
I would be careful with that - recently there was a post from one user with the similar situation, he also just let the motor rest against the downtube, and the result was that the whole casing cracked and split in half - and it wasn't pretty. The downtube was kind'a square, he did not use any rubber mat to spread the pressure, and it seems that it generated too much strain in the casing that is not designed for this.

hetm4n   100 µW

100 µW
Posts: 7
Joined: Aug 29 2019 6:30am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hetm4n » Sep 17 2019 3:28pm

when will the 0.20 software be available ??

mctubster   100 W

100 W
Posts: 174
Joined: Feb 26 2018 6:21am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Sep 18 2019 2:21am

Nick2 wrote:
Sep 17 2019 2:59pm
Nfer wrote:
Sep 17 2019 7:08am
Hi! Yesterday I did my best to install the motor on a Trek Fx2 but I was not able to install the back bolt attachment. There is no room for it between the bike chain stays and the bolt support.

Is there any alternative?
Potential issues if I run the motor without it?
I would be careful with that - recently there was a post from one user with the similar situation, he also just let the motor rest against the downtube, and the result was that the whole casing cracked and split in half - and it wasn't pretty. The downtube was kind'a square, he did not use any rubber mat to spread the pressure, and it seems that it generated too much strain in the casing that is not designed for this.
In that case it cracked because all of the load was against one of the bolt holes because.of the unusual shape of the downtube. If you have a round type downtube and the load is spread out in the centre of the case unlikely to be an issue. I don't use the back bolt like a number of people here

knutselmaaster   100 W

100 W
Posts: 264
Joined: Apr 05 2014 6:50am
Location: near Paris, France

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Sep 18 2019 3:43am

There are some pictures, early in this topic, of an alternative way to fix the motor at the rear.

Nfer   10 µW

10 µW
Posts: 6
Joined: Sep 17 2019 6:51am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Nfer » Sep 18 2019 9:04am

I took a look at the securing block last night and I was able to make it work. I flipped it so the top piece goes backward. Don't know how efficient it could be but I hope it prevents any motor rotation.

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