Tesla Model 3

Well, those 200C cells would certainly allow a lower capacity pack,.... but i dont see a 5 kWh pack getting very far around that 8 min lap.
An 8 min. (approx) lap time using 5 kWh would dictate an average power of just 37 kW for a 220 km/h average speed ?? ..improbable !
Even 10 kWh pack would only give a 75 kW average power usage.
This is a 30+ km track (hills and long straghts) that is 80 % full throttle.
I suspect it will need more like the 200-300kW average power to get near that 8 min lap.
And that means a 30+ kWh pack
Since those 200C cells have a energy density of 142 Wh/kg,....that means at least 210 kg of CELLS.
TESLA cells are 240+ WH/KG, so their 100kWh pack has 400kg of CELLS
So yes, they could lose 200 ish kg off cells weight
.....but that is only enough for i lap....no warm up or sighting lap .!

Hillhater said:

Well, those 200C cells would certainly allow a lower capacity pack,.... but i dont see a 5 kWh pack getting very far around that 8 min lap.
An 8 min. (approx) lap time using 5 kWh would dictate an average power of just 37 kW for a 220 km/h average speed ?? ..improbable ! <- something wrong with your math.
Even 10 kWh pack would only give a 75 kW average power usage. <- something wrong with your math.
This is a 30+ km track (hills and long straghts) that is 80 % full throttle.
I suspect it will need more like the 200-300kW average power to get near that 8 min lap.
And that means a 30+ kWh pack
Since those 200C cells have a energy density of 142 Wh/kg,....that means at least 210 kg of CELLS.
TESLA cells are 240+ WH/KG, so their 100kWh pack has 400kg of CELLS
So yes, they could lose 200 ish kg off cells weight
.....but that is only enough for i lap....no warm up or sighting lap .!

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I think there is a mistake in your math and you didn't see the full potential of these cells.
Its all speculation.

We need actual consumption numbers. But also remember they we tested at 37 degC I bet there is a bit more power at 45-50 deg C
Also Remember with these cells you can crank up the regen.
Also you develop a upward weight spiral where as you remove weight you will use a smaller amount of energy and then you can remove more weight etc.


The Model S pack is like 3-5 C rated its SUPER low but they have so many cells it makes up for it.
Just quick numbers you have 5c at 100kwh so thats about 500kw of energy availible.
With a 125C pack you would only need 4kwh to get 500kw.
But yes I agree they will need more then 4kwh for a lap. I am guessing 10kwh of energy.
So a 98s 6p pack would be 10.878 kwh of energy.
With 125C x 6p x 5ah = 3750 amps available when full
3750a x 362.6v = 1.294 MW of power avalible
Even as they are at ~ 2/3 - 1/2 charged you will have more power then a full OEM model S battery.
1294482 watts when full / 15384 watts/kg = 84.14 kg for the cells
With a weight of 84kg weight of cells that would remove about 800 lbs off of the car. The oem Model S battery is > 1200 lbs

Real track focused cars would be like f1, the race prep starts in pits circulate fluid warming the systems up to temp getting tyres ready and having the perfect amount of energy for the session.

The plaid as great as it is and sounds does not work to these rules so is carrying weight penalty as discussed plus the body is far from a race car spec even if it's been fettled the weight is the major problem.

The power output is enough to blow even the king of the road away the McLaren 720s but it's the weight penalty that will never see it get close on track and the top speed again will keep being a problem, get that pack weight down and increase output could see these cars beat even if it is only for 1 lap.

Arlo1 said:

I think there is a mistake in your math and you didn't see the full potential of these cells.
Its all speculation.

We need actual consumption numbers. But also remember they we tested at 37 degC I bet there is a bit more power at 45-50 deg C
Also Remember with these cells you can crank up the regen.
Also you develop a upward weight spiral where as you remove weight you will use a smaller amount of energy and then you can remove more weight etc.


The Model S pack is like 3-5 C rated its SUPER low but they have so many cells it makes up for it.
Just quick numbers you have 5c at 100kwh so thats about 500kw of energy availible.
With a 125C pack you would only need 4kwh to get 500kw.
But yes I agree they will need more then 4kwh for a lap. I am guessing 10kwh of energy.
So a 98s 6p pack would be 10.878 kwh of energy.
With 125C x 6p x 5ah = 3750 amps available when full
3750a x 362.6v = 1.294 MW of power avalible
Even as they are at ~ 2/3 - 1/2 charged you will have more power then a full OEM model S battery.
1294482 watts when full / 15384 watts/kg = 84.14 kg for the cells
With a weight of 84kg weight of cells that would remove about 800 lbs off of the car. The oem Model S battery is > 1200 lbs

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Without some real data we dont know what pack capacity is needed for a 8 min lap.
But as i said a 10 kWh pack can only offer a 75kW average power...and there is no way that is enough for a 80% throttle track in a 500kW car.....(even more unlikely in a 1+MW car !)
My guess is a 200-300kW average power , suggesting 30-40kWh pack capacity..for one lap ! (100Ah = 25p pack)
Regen is not going to give you much back with so little hard braking happening.
They do not need the power ability of those cells since 500kW only means 1300 Amps peak (unless they have really juiced up the inverters and motors ?) but even if its 2000A peak (800kW !),..that is still only 80 amps peak (16C ) per cell on a 25 p pack. (50amps (10C ) for 500kW)
So ...no, i still think they will be hauling 200+ kg OF CELLS....(compared to the 400kg of Tesla CELLS )
... and no you cannot just eliminate all the rest of the pack components or infrastructure ...its integral to the chassis stiffness.
This is getting a long way off from a production car, or even a pre production prototype !

Ianhill said:

...... get that pack weight down and increase output could see these cars beat even if it is only for 1 lap.

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But then they should be compared to the VW ID-R and its 6:05 lap time.
....or at least the 6:46 of the road spec NIO !

Vw idr is comparable to say a lemans 24hour car mazda 787b that type of beast id say, this tesla got to hang with the Hypercar gang and of them lot nothing moves like the McLaren 720r for the current set of cars so even beating that is a challenge itself over this lap, i suppose that's why its the test ground to weed the weak it's not got its name for nothing and for a tesla to beat one them we looking for a major break though many years of r+d yet.

The McLaren is a (expensive) road legal showroom stock car that you can buy and drive now, as is the NIO.
At best , this Tesla is a prototype that may/may not be available in a year or so.....but with most likely need a “special” battery and various other modifications to suit this track attempt.
So if you want to run under a “prototype” rule set, you have to face up to the similar players in that category ...VWs ID R is certainly a prototype, and its closer to the NIO P9 road car than the Mazda, in that they are both EV “sports ” cars
None of these VW, NIO, Taycan, 720s or Tesla are comparable in many ways, so the outcome proves little other than as a promo opportunity for them all.

Hillhater said:

Without some real data we dont know what pack capacity is needed for a 8 min lap. We have some great data from places like leguna
But as i said a 10 kWh pack can only offer a 75kW average power...and there is no way that is enough for a 80% throttle track in a 500kW car.....(even more unlikely in a 1+MW car !)<- This is just a blatent lie like you just proven you didn't read the data sheet for the cells. They will do 625 amps from full to dead. 10kw pack is 6p for 3750 amps all the way to dead! So a 98s pack will be producing 3750 amps when its at 3.2v/cell or 313.6 pack voltage thats 1.176mw which gives it an average of 1.235MW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where the frock do you get 75kw average from are you smoking crack?
My guess is a 200-300kW average power , suggesting 30-40kWh pack capacity..for one lap ! (100Ah = 25p pack)
Regen is not going to give you much back with so little hard braking happening.
They do not need the power ability of those cells since 500kW only means 1300 Amps peak (unless they have really juiced up the inverters and motors ?) but even if its 2000A peak (800kW !),..that is still only 80 amps peak (16C ) per cell on a 25 p pack. (50amps (10C ) for 500kW)
So ...no, i still think they will be hauling 200+ kg OF CELLS....(compared to the 400kg of Tesla CELLS )
... and no you cannot just eliminate all the rest of the pack components or infrastructure ...its integral to the chassis stiffness.
This is getting a long way off from a production car, or even a pre production prototype !

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Yes its a lot of work. And the housing is part of the chassis but they have redesigned the rear drive to have 2 motors its not unrealistic they would be using some sort of newer better cells. Even the model 3 has more power dense cells.
My point is they can remove BIG weight from the car. If they did it or not is anyones guess. But I am positive they would have used better cells if they went to the work of running 3 motors!

.....
But as i said a 10 kWh pack can only offer a 75kW average power...and there is no way that is enough for a 80% throttle track in a 500kW car.....(even more unlikely in a 1+MW car !)<-

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......This is just a blatent lie like you just proven you didn't read the data sheet for the cells. They will do 625 amps from full to dead. 10kw pack is 6p for 3750 amps all the way to dead! So a 98s pack will be producing 3750 amps when its at 3.2v/cell or 313.6 pack voltage thats 1.176mw which gives it an average of 1.235MW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where the frock do you get 75kw average from are you smoking crack?

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Question.... How long will a 10kWh pack supply 1.235 MW ?.
Answer......less than 30 seconds then its dead !
Question ...how long can a 10kWh pack supply 75kW ?
Answer......approx 8 minutes ..... or long enough for one lap of the ‘ring !
See what “Average power” means ?
On a track that need max throttle ( 500kW ? ) , for much of the time (80% ?)
Another Question ..how long can a 10kWh pack supply 500kW ?
Answer ....approx 1 min 10 secs ..or about 15% of the target lap time ??
So whilst that 10kWh pack can supply more than enough power......it cannot do it long enough to last a lap

https://www.motorsport.com/rally/news/world-s-first-electric-rallycross-car-revealed-843163/843163/

Comparable to a current rally car power and weight has 550bhp 760nm torque with a kerb weight of 1200kg and there's 15 minutes of hot lap fun at 195kph so id say this car would get me one fast lap of the nurbergring faster than the plaid could as it's purpose built change the final drive to increase speed fettle the suspension and tyres away u go.

If the same was applied to a tesla chassis there's no doubt in my mind that for 15 minutes it could compete and outclass a McLaren 720r at all of its games braking, handling, acceleration and top speed but its a case of how far we can push battery technology and efficiency over the coming years as to getting that 15mins more like 30-45mins flat out attack and then a real electric rally car series with world stages can be run and really get some publicity and hype, formula e is pants we know the real fun is inside the cabin through a mixed surface rally stage or an Aussie supercar series made up of purpose built tesla race cars.

Hillhater said:

.....
But as i said a 10 kWh pack can only offer a 75kW average power...and there is no way that is enough for a 80% throttle track in a 500kW car.....(even more unlikely in a 1+MW car !)<-

Click to expand...

......This is just a blatent lie like you just proven you didn't read the data sheet for the cells. They will do 625 amps from full to dead. 10kw pack is 6p for 3750 amps all the way to dead! So a 98s pack will be producing 3750 amps when its at 3.2v/cell or 313.6 pack voltage thats 1.176mw which gives it an average of 1.235MW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where the frock do you get 75kw average from are you smoking crack?

Click to expand...

Question.... How long will a 10kWh pack supply 1.235 MW ?.
Answer......less than 30 seconds then its dead !
Question ...how long can a 10kWh pack supply 75kW ?
Answer......approx 8 minutes ..... or long enough for one lap of the ‘ring !
See what “Average power” means ?
On a track that need max throttle ( 500kW ? ) , for much of the time (80% ?)
Another Question ..how long can a 10kWh pack supply 500kW ?
Answer ....approx 1 min 10 secs ..or about 15% of the target lap time ??
So whilst that 10kWh pack can supply more than enough power......it cannot do it long enough to last a lap

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I see how you got your numbers and it makes sense so I apologize.

But I think with the stronger regen and acceleration its not the average that matters as much as what the battery can produce and accept. Another point is the VW I.D.R used a 43kwh pack for pikes peak which is a steady hill climb.

For its reentry into Pikes Peak, Volkswagen built a prototype EV with 680 horsepower and 479 pound-feet of torque. A 43-kWh battery feeds juice to the all-wheel drive monster, with an electric motor on each axle that can propel it to 62 mph in 2.25 seconds

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So knowing that's a race up a hill its likely the race on the flat would be ~ 1/2 the energy so maybe ~ 20kwh.

-Arlin

I can't find info on the pack size on that rally car, if the gearing was changed clearly 15mins will reduce increased wind drag from speed needs more torque and will deplete the pack faster I'd say there needs to be around 30kwh in that machine to perform as stated and it's of 2016 design so researching further shows it's been well trumpted by a Hyundai kona with 800hp and there's proberly a few more I've not seen.

I eat my words alot so at least I learn something as this year there's a Vauxhall Corsa 100hp electric rally car series with a 50kwh pack, not very high power figures but plenty of fun to be had for entry level youth drivers that can progress with the electric cars development as they become more confident in their ability and we will see the first batch of electric rally car stars soon.

Ian, that Rallycross car has a 26 kWh (160 kg) pack and can run for “10-15 mins”.with 540 hp (400 kW)
Formula E race cars run at 250kWmax for 45 min using a 56kWh (250kg), pack
BUT.. as you know, both those series are run on short, low speed tracks. ..Formula E is deliberately done that way to both minimise power draw at high speeds, and maximise regen opportunities ( street circuits with many 90 deg turns and short straights.
F’ E is pretty much also an “Eenergy management” competition with cars often running out of power before the end if they run too much power , too often !
My point is ..even with super aero bodywork on F’E cars, very low weight, and only 250 kW max power draw, they still use 56kWh in 45 mins...so if you run sedan aero, 50% more weight , double the power draw, reduce the regen oportunities, ...what happens to that run time ?.....closer to 20 mins i suspect even with a 56 kWh pack.
Similarly with the rallycross car. The Tesla has more power, more weight, higher speeds for much longer, etc
...so that 26 kWh pack is not going to last “10-15 mins” ....maybe 5-10 mins
VW used the 43 kWh ID R pack size for its ‘ring record run, and reported that it used 25 kWh for the lap
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1124409_vw-id-r-nurburgring-lap-sets-efficiency-record-too
i doubt the power demand is any less than PPeak ...a motor can only draw its max power no matter if its going uphill or down....the accelleration and speed may change, but not the max power draw. Infact the time spent at higher speeds on the straights at the ‘ring would probable result in more energy used
However the PPeak run was 2 min (30%) longer than the ‘ring lap, so the VW would likely have needed most of that 43 kWh to make it.
So, it seems very unlikely Tesla will be able to run much less than a 30kWh pack for a single (8 min) lap....and that is with little margin.
If i were making the decision i would go with 40 kWh so as not to be the guy who has to explain why the car ran out of power on that last straight !

I don't follow formula e I should becuase that's the cutting edge but it bores me same as f1, lots of juicy stuff going on in the thread now and good links I not going to go into math to much your spot on for a back of the napkin calcs id run with that for generalizing, I have noticed to that seat and hyundai have electric touring cars too with some juicy specs so have to look forward to some new e motorsports.

Only thing we have to remember is when the top speed is reached torque demand will drop to the point it's only need to maintain the speed over come wind resistance frictional loses motor efficiency.

So the power draw should drop to a point of maintaining rather than accelerating unless the car has to use all of it's energy to maintain the speed which is unlikely without massive downforce which could be over come with active aero plus at this point the motor is at max rpm so it's efficiency point will be at maximum the amount of energy put in for the energy out vs heat generated is at it minimum long as we stay within the torque range of the motors output on the peak point for the rpm on a dyno graph for a particular motor.

I'm not being accurate with figures I'm just generalizing to point out that maintaining top speed is not full power demand unless it requires max torque to stay there like climbing a hill over coming something, regen could even occur on a downslope and maintain at max speed in theory.

I drive a a ford focus 1.6 diesel and it's rated at 56mpg in summer time i can get this figure upto 82.6mpg over a distance of 246 miles I drive this straight up the motor way at night in 6th gear just riding the torque around 60mph the cars aero is not got to high drag the engine is at it's most efficient rpm range and I just feed torque in and out to maintain that speed bit boring but cheap I avoid brakes at all costs but death, i back off the throttle in anticipation to slow at the turn with least heat loss in brakes 0 is must to get these figures and just keep that steady rolling speed. On my way home I drove by day time and tryed my best but couldn't maintain such a clean run and my average fell to 81.2 for the complete near 500 mile trip on half a tank 1/4 a tank was carried for no reason no stops needed or made for fuel.

I've even worked out a way of regen in a diesel I only use aircon on decent when off throttle and it doesn't effect my mpg figure the mass of the car moving downhill through the gearbox to the crank helps turn the ancillary belt that charges the alternator and runs the a.c compressor down a hill for free but u have to pay to climb there in first place but if your passing a long slope on a motorway free cold air

High speed means high aero power loss ..and power is what limits top speed ( gearing can be changed.)
Torque drops off at high rpm even on an ELectric motor, but remember power (kW) is a product of torque and rpm so the power stays near constant up to max rpm.

Hillhater said:

High speed means high aero power loss ..and power is what limits top speed ( gearing can be changed.)
Torque drops off at high rpm even on an ELectric motor, but remember power (kW) is a product of torque and rpm so the power stays near constant up to max rpm.

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Yes if max power demand is needed to maintain max speed on a flat surface then the cars speed will start to drop when a hill is reached and like u say max power will be in constant demand still if the gearing is set high enough but when a downhill section is reached it will cause a drop in power demand at that max speed unless the car has not even reach it on the flat then it will continue to accelerate.

Getting OT a little, but i intended to add that i had a Focus Diesel also.. (2.0L Turbo ?).. mainly because i liked the low down torque (350Nm ) and excellent “Power Shift” wet clutch auto box. Its the nearest thing to an EV drive feel without having to pay $60+k ! I was also impressed with the fuel economy and impressive performance.
A great car, my only gripe was the stupid low profile 18” tyres that gave a rough ride at times , got kerb damage easily, and were expensive to replace.

I got a 1.6 tdci 115 bhp 220 nm diesel 6 speed manual it's a psa(Peugeot) unit done 100000 no issues but injector and dual mass+clutch nothing to write home about cheap parts and labour been a good car works well enough it treated decent, I got 16 inch rims on mine it's a titanium model so plush interior stereo climate control etc and wider 215 50 16 tyres for comfort.

I didnt realise Ford put PSA motors in some models ?
I am currently contemplating a Mondeo 2.0 TDC waggon...even more torque 400Nm , and still 50-60 mpg .

7:23 unofficially timed !

Intrigue at the Nurburgring as Tesla unofficially beats Porsche's fastest lap
It'll never be official, but it's a great promotion for the upcoming Model S "Plaid."

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https://www.engadget.com/2019/09/18/intrigue-at-the-nurburgring-as-tesla-unofficially-beats-porsche/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS5hdS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAH9MiIJxH-5hps4sgTiDpdLd6yLoKZsyp0RzWTWPytyvjWpagedPqcFUDc9sagPIbC6w5-nwLQ8VPnNj_2EZ16Tl3zTRBpfW5v2cqiVEZymGtja5LeHRqthAFydiVj2ik60R3qG1WVPbJphjOXc8D8yDoMuagK8o5l6_eTcQELLj

.......To ensure a good time, Tesla put a modified version of the Model S with "fender flares, wider wheels and tires, a rear spoiler, an expanded front grills, and seriously sticky tires," according to Engadget's sister site, Autoblog. That's what was visible on the outside, and Tesla has yet to say what, if any, modifications it did to the suspension, motor, battery and other internal parts.

If Tesla put a stock version of its most powerful Model S on the Nurburgring track, it likely wouldn't beat the Taycan Turbo's run. The EV's tires wouldn't be up to the task, for one thing, and and the motor, brakes and/or battery could possibly overheat. Porsche's Taycan Turbo, on the other hand, was reportedly a detuned version of the production Taycan Turbo S with stock summer tires.

With the modifications, the Model S managed a stellar time of 7 minutes and 23 seconds around Nurburgring, according to a very unofficial timing done by Autoblog's spy. Again, that beats the Taycan Turbo by 19 seconds, and when Tesla does an officially timed lap -- possibly later this week -- it may be able to do even better...

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From another forum, Holland/Netherlands just reached 10,000th Model 3 sold there.

Hillhater said:

7:23 unofficially timed !

Porsche's Taycan Turbo, on the other hand, was reportedly a detuned version of the production Taycan Turbo S with stock summer tires.

With the modifications, the Model S managed a stellar time of 7 minutes and 23 seconds around Nurburgring, according to a very unofficial timing done by Autoblog's spy. Again, that beats the Taycan Turbo by 19 seconds, and when Tesla does an officially timed lap -- possibly later this week -- it may be able to do even better...

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Hahaha detunned Taycan lol excuses excuses.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-nurburgring-lap-time-vs-porsche-taycan/?fbclid=IwAR01ic9_BRdChztGnlkJSIBx_NYBJVCr758CiHSdeT3gyNLJEzUmi27BWrk

Many comments suggest this time was on a shorter track, as the “full” (+1 mile) track is not available for use until later in the month ?
But still no indication of what battery is being used.
We know a standard P100 pack would not last alap without overheating .

Hillhater said:

We know a standard P100 pack would not last alap without overheating .

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We do? Most tracks get a few laps with the 100kwh battery before heat is a problem. Also you don't even know what is currently the "standard" battery.

Every production Tesla that has attempted the ‘ring lap, has had its power dialed down automatically to prevent pack overheating...before half distance.
That may not be noticed on short tracks (< 2.0min lap time) , and Tesla could override the thermal cut,..but i dont think they would risk that?.
It would not be the first time Tesla have substituted their standard NCA cells with a higher power cell that can handle the load longer.
Also, as we discussed, it is an obvious area to save weight.