Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
mati   10 mW

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Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by mati » Sep 16 2019 2:01am

I'm trying to make a 44v battery for a astro 3220 with the castle creations phoenix edge hv 160 controller.
I don't know what battery I should aim for and hope some one can point me in the right direction.

In the battery jungle I found this so far but I'm not sure if there is something better out there and what type battery I should use.
Lipo Multistar, 18650 NCR18650GA or 21700 INR21700-50E .?
if you have another battery on your mind then I would love to hear about it or any advice you can give.

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flippy   1 MW

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by flippy » Sep 16 2019 4:18am

the GA die too fast under full cycles and hard loads. take the 29E, those are much more durable and a lot cheaper.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

mati   10 mW

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by mati » Sep 16 2019 4:43am

I forgot to say that they do not need to be cheap,
would you grab something else than 18650, maybe 21700 or lipo.?

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by flippy » Sep 16 2019 5:27am

mati wrote:
Sep 16 2019 4:43am
I forgot to say that they do not need to be cheap,
would you grab something else than 18650, maybe 21700 or lipo.?
more expensive does not mean better, especially not when talking about pouches or 21700.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by Hillhater » Sep 16 2019 6:17am

mati wrote:
Sep 16 2019 2:01am
I'm trying to make a 44v battery for a astro 3220 with the castle creations phoenix edge hv 160 controller.
I don't know what battery I should aim for and hope some one can point me in the right direction.
This will depend on what use you have in mind, power demand, run time, stationary, mobile, or flight etc, any special requirements, safety etc.
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

mati   10 mW

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by mati » Sep 16 2019 8:32am

flippy wrote:
Sep 16 2019 5:27am
more expensive does not mean better, especially not when talking about pouches or 21700.
Thanks for the info, so you would stick to the 18650 with the 29E or take another 18650 if they don't need to be cheap.?

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by mati » Sep 16 2019 8:33am

Hillhater wrote:
Sep 16 2019 6:17am
This will depend on what use you have in mind, power demand, run time, stationary, mobile, or flight etc, any special requirements, safety etc.
You getting technical here, bare over with me if I'm not sure what you mean with stationary, mobile or flight.
power as much as I can get with the most run time, hope that is something like yours battery. Pure excitement. :D
and safety is always a good thing.
Is there something you would prefer over another.?

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by methods » Sep 16 2019 11:35am

If you are from the RC world just go to Hobby King and grab some 6S packs.
Rig them up Series Parallel and zip-tie them to the frame.
You will be riding in hours. . .

Then just keep them reasonably balanced and bulk charge.

18650 and all the can solutions require TONS of work building them up.
I use can cells - in things like flashlights and vapes
For everything else I use what is EASY

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-500 ... xt-90.html

This is what we used to use back in the day. They have been $50 for a decade. 20C is more than enough. . . 4 of those cost you $200 bucks and I only order from the USA West Coast Warehouse (unless you like waiting around)

Wire that up and you have 44V of 10Ah
Charges up to 50V
Can dump 200A burst

Just rode that yesterday . . . some old packs with hundreds of cycles on them.

Super simple
If I were to change... I would consider hard packs... I have had a lot of damage zip-tying packs to the frame. The reality is that you do not want a monolithic pack. You want to distribute the cells around so they fit well. Not to phat. Not to high of CG... pack fits here... pack fits there.

I use Anderson PP45 for wiring because they allow you to quickly swap the packs into different combinations of Series and Parallel. With 10AWG wire you can run 50A average... which is way more than you can ever actually push into a bike...

... As for 18650?
Every time I get started down that path I just end up needing more and more tools and tooling... I end up with a lot of bulky mass... I dont like them for Ebikes

... One of my favorite packs was effectively made of large format pouches. Nissan Leaf or Eig... Big bastards in a 20Ah format. If you could fit enough of them on the bike you would have a Moped.

... Dont listen to anybody
Just go read old posts and see who is having the most fun for the least amount of money

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by flippy » Sep 16 2019 12:28pm

mati wrote:
Sep 16 2019 8:32am
Thanks for the info, so you would stick to the 18650 with the 29E or
take another 18650 if they don't need to be cheap.?
the price-performance ratio is pretty unbeatable. i tested quite a few different cells and the 29E is a clear winner right now with the PF as a extremely close second place.
its also a lot safer then pouches as a single battery only holds 10Wh when full compared to 100+Wh for a pouch cell. piercing or damaging a (plastic film) pouch or a steel cyclinder should be a no brainer if safety is a concern.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by methods » Sep 16 2019 1:11pm

Agreed that cans have a better failure mode.

Even better, LiFe cans.
They just out-gas and that is it.

I have seen epic fireballs from reversed pouch cells. I was once turning over a 5.2L V8 with 4 or 8Ah of 4S 20C and this is what happened:
4_20_2018_014.jpg
4_20_2018_014.jpg (72.69 KiB) Viewed 1248 times
One pouch erupted
The solvents caught fire
Big fireball. Very violent

... But that was dumping into a Short Circuit for 30 seconds.
Never seen it on an Ebike.

... If we are actually talking about Safety the only path forward is to buy a professional product that is properly BMS protected, current limited, fused, balanced, tested, in volume production, etc.

The real safety around a DIY build is in the quality of the build. Really does not matter what you use, it is how you use it.

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

mati   10 mW

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by mati » Sep 16 2019 4:03pm

methods wrote:
Sep 16 2019 11:35am
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-500 ... xt-90.html

I use Anderson PP45 for wiring because they allow you to quickly swap the packs into different combinations of Series and Parallel. With 10AWG wire you can run 50A average... which is way more than you can ever actually push into a bike...
Thanks Methods, for the wall of text, pretty instructive.*Bow*
The lipo that you did link, the item is no longer available and I leaning some kind more to the cans now even if I need to buy the kWeld. :confused:
I will have the Anderson PP45 and 10AWG wire in my mind when time get to the wiring.

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by mati » Sep 16 2019 4:10pm

flippy wrote:
Sep 16 2019 12:28pm
29E is a clear winner right now with the PF as a extremely close second place.
The only supplyer that I know is nkon and they dont have the E7, will the PF be better than E6.?

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by methods » Sep 16 2019 6:23pm

InStock.png
InStock.png (341.92 KiB) Viewed 1211 times
Maybe they are not in stock in your part of the world, but here they are in stock here.
I did no shopping .. . just searched for what I know worked 1000 years ago as a "starting point"

(Ebike is like RC... information usually goes bad quickly... so I do not know what is currently "best")

Glad to hear you are going down the can route. Please find a way that does not suck and share with us how it works. I have taken apart many batteries made of cans. In nearly all cases it is a real file to fit situation - cardboard and glue and welded little tabs... nothing even remotely rebuildable in any way.

The Ability to REBUILD is #1 for the revolution!
(hence why I am even here...)

... In front of me is a rare example of a non-sucking 18650 implementation
IMAG0458.jpg
IMAG0458.jpg (1.08 MiB) Viewed 1211 times
A light weight aluminum housing machined to a specification that is dependent on the spring loading of the pogo's used.

(Yes, those are the cells I use. I paid $7 each but have in the past paid $15. They are just rebranded... you pay for convenience)
IMAG0459.jpg
IMAG0459.jpg (1.45 MiB) Viewed 1211 times
The spring loaded heavy gold button is rated for at least 9A continuous and they press VERY HARD... hard enough to dent the bottom of one cell when I did a 5' drop test of the mated assembly :mrgreen: (Cells stayed in)

I am running those two cells at 177W while in 2S

177W / 2*3.6 = 24.6A
BURST (We really only deal in Burst in EV... thinking otherwise is silly... BURST and AVERAGE)
IMAG0460.jpg
IMAG0460.jpg (968.12 KiB) Viewed 1211 times
At the bottom is a fixed post, also bulged out.

I... do not suspect that the 18650 cans with the built in BMS puck would fit into this assembly. It is a very tight fit! For an ebike it would absolutely suffice. I have dropped this assembly 20+ times and never had the cells flop out. Zero Chance of anything but the GNARLIEST of vibration (at perfect resonant frequency) causing a no-contact. Even right on the resonant frequency these cells would conduct at full rate in this assembly.

...

Since you did bow (my son and I bow before we fight - no bow, no fight... I take it seriously) ...

I will share with you what the Master said when I went to his shop many years ago. ... ... ... He showed me something very similar. His was protected by patent but the idea was the same... MAKE IT SO THAT YOU CAN SWAP OUT THE CELLS

... so if you are on that path, you are on the right path.

The only thing I would add is to bypass the whole Global BMS and run per-cell BMS

[/quote]
ProtectCell.png
ProtectCell.png (1.07 MiB) Viewed 1211 times

(See how we are shifting away from fussy this and fussy that to global win idea? This is my job)

-methods

mati wrote:
Sep 16 2019 4:03pm
methods wrote:
Sep 16 2019 11:35am
.....
....
The lipo that you did link, the item is no longer available .....

....
I will have the Anderson PP45 and 10AWG wire in my mind when time get to the wiring.
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by Hillhater » Sep 16 2019 10:36pm

mati wrote:
Sep 16 2019 8:33am
You getting technical here, bare over with me if I'm not sure what you mean with stationary, mobile or flight.
power as much as I can get with the most run time, hope that is something like yours battery. Pure excitement. :D
and safety is always a good thing.
Is there something you would prefer over another.?
Sorry to confuse you,... i just mean thet the choice of battery can vary depending on what you are useing it for..
A Ebike ?
A Drone or some other flying project ?
A mobile vehicle, robot, etc ?
Some batteries are more suitable for specific use , some are more powerful, ans some are not very safe !
So,.. what is your project ?
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by john61ct » Sep 16 2019 10:55pm


methods wrote:The Ability to REBUILD is #1 for the revolution!
100% agree, no solder no spotwelding!

>non-sucking 18650 implementation
IMAG0458.jpg
A light weight aluminum housing machined to a specification that is dependent on the spring loading of the pogo's used.
IMAG0459.jpg
The spring loaded heavy gold button is rated for at least 9A continuous and they press VERY HARD... hard enough to dent the bottom of one cell when I did a 5' drop test of the mated assembly (Cells stayed in)

Link to a source please?

Sizes for 26650 or others?

_____
> run per-cell BMS
ProtectCell.png

Also for this?


PS What's a POGO?

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flippy   1 MW

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by flippy » Sep 17 2019 1:39am

mati wrote:
Sep 16 2019 4:10pm
The only supplyer that I know is nkon and they dont have the E7, will the PF be better than E6.?
the E6 is fine. the difference is very small.

please try to ignore the screaming above about replacing cells and the backflips needed to justfy it. that is totally unwarrented in a brand new pack made with quality cells.
i have built packs with about almost 100.000 cells now according to my database and so far i only had 1 warranty claim due to a bad cel.

if you dont feel like buying a spot welder or dont feel comfortable to learn it then you can ask people here that live near you to spot weld the pack so you can finish it up and put it in a case and hook up a bms and stuff. in the end that will probably be cheaper and give better results then learning a new trade with cells that cost 2+ euro a piece.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by john61ct » Sep 17 2019 8:32am

The point is, testing / refreshing the pack when the cells start to approach EoL, rather than tossing it all out as a single unit.

And some do prefer to make do with salvaged / second-hand, otherwise variable cells.

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flippy   1 MW

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by flippy » Sep 17 2019 10:04am

john61ct wrote:
Sep 17 2019 8:32am
The point is, testing / refreshing the pack when the cells start to approach EoL, rather than tossing it all out as a single unit.

And some do prefer to make do with salvaged / second-hand, otherwise variable cells.
pretty sure that as your pack gets EOL you need to replace all cells, not just a few. replacing a few cells in a worn pack is great way to get massive inbalances.
still it takes years to wear out a properly sized pack.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by methods » Sep 17 2019 11:14am

Screaming hu?
I will consider that a bow.
Ok, we can now engage. :)


Flippy,
So you are a professional pack builder and you have a database? Presumably statistically significant data about the reliability of the packs you have assembled to some specification or standard?

How many packs have you built?
Are you selling those professionally as a reliable and (safe) product?

What is your recycle plan for when those packs hit EOL? Are you taking financial responsibility for that waste stream?

Is waste stream in your business model along with your "database"?

What test data do you have around safe transport and abnormal environments?

I thought we were talking about DIY techniques that focus on low budget, low impact to the environment, etc.

-methods



flippy wrote:
Sep 17 2019 1:39am


please try to ignore the screaming above about replacing cells and the backflips needed to justfy it. that is totally unwarrented in a brand new pack made with quality cells.
i have built packs with about almost 100.000 cells now according to my database and so far i only had 1 warranty claim due to a bad cel.
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by flippy » Sep 17 2019 11:25am

methods wrote:
Sep 17 2019 11:14am
Flippy,
So you are a professional pack builder and you have a database? Presumably statistically significant data about the reliability of the packs you have assembled to some specification or standard?
there is no international standard. but i can count justified warranty claims on 1 hand so far.
methods wrote:
Sep 17 2019 11:14am
How many packs have you built?
Are you selling those professionally as a reliable and product?
i dont know exactly how many. i checked my accounting a few weeks ago and i noticed i bought more then 100k cells over the past years. granted, some big batteries were 15k cells so that adds up fast.
methods wrote:
Sep 17 2019 11:14am
What is your recycle plan for when those packs hit EOL? Are you taking financial responsibility for that waste stream?
Is waste stream in your business model along with your "database"?
What test data do you have around safe transport and abnormal environments?
I thought we were talking about DIY techniques that focus on low budget, low impact to the environment, etc.
recycling is not my problem, that is the customers problem. there are specialsized disposal companies in europe that gladly take used lithium. i know 1 company is constantly scouring breakers for crashed EV's and they almost foam at the mouth when they see a tesla. i also dont have to pay for them to pick up my waste cells i take from worn packs that i recell.

transporting the batteries i make is very simple: i transport them myself as it is way cheaper to do myself then get a courier. those costs are included in the price. or some customers (especially businesses) want to collect if they want to save a buck/euro.

and i am pointing to low budget (29e cells are the cheapest in Wh/$) and "enviroment" is a loaded topic as nothing is good for the enviroment, exept nuking the whole human race out of existence prehaps.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by methods » Sep 17 2019 11:34am

(late reply)

Ok - I do not wish to argue any further with Flippy. He reminds me too much of Liveforphysics and has glue packed batteries.
I will leave and you can have final say..


. . .

Every time we start a new industry someone like flippy turns up.

He appears to have useful information
His information is probably correct
He is no doubt useful and a contributor
I am glad he is here helping others

He is quick to talk smack . . . which brings him into my radar.
I wonder to myself why he is so quick to insist on his ways?
Is he old and wise? An industry expert?
He reminds me of many small business men who have come and gone
...

He is likely running a business for profit
This business is likely very short sighted and profit motivated, as all businesses must be to survive.

...

Even if he is selling for very low profits, it is certain, that he is not focusing on long term viability solutions for the industry.

...

Currently we are burning hundreds of thousands of gallons of gas a second.
Soon we will be chucking hundreds of thousands of 18650's a second
Filling landfills with "dead" 18650 batteries when the niche recycle companies fail

This is the Cycle

18650 cells which are not so useful for high rate applications can serve for years in a remote control or some other low rate application. I do it all the time. This is what we are speaking of. . . Up-cycling. I agree that you can cut spot welds out and use the batteries. . . but ... a compression fit for the same size and weight would be a superior solution.

Then you own a BATTERY CARRIER instead of a hot-glued battery pack.
A Tool
A durable good

So...
flippy can be flippant like Lukeman is. . . he is welcome to do so. Glad someone is doing it...

I would not be so quick to disregard the need to recognize the full life cycle of 18650 cells. Assuming someone else will eat your waste stream may turn out to be not such a great assumption. Just look at the Recycle business in the US. 80% of it now goes into the landfill while we all still pay CRV tax.

This is why fees are imposed on OEM manufacturers to address EOL in some countries.

Ok
All done
have at it flippy.

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by flippy » Sep 17 2019 11:40am

wow, that is quite a load of assumptions.

prehaps one should ask questions and/or properly read instead of making assumptions. pretty sure you are ignoring half of my previous post.

ps: i never glued a pack in my life and telling people to use hundreds of individual cell holders instead of spot welding is and remains a utter dumb piece of advice.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by mati » Sep 18 2019 2:21pm

I'm on the other side of the sea and I get this.
N.jpg
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methods wrote:
Sep 16 2019 6:23pm
The spring loaded heavy gold button is rated for at least 9A continuous
Can you please tell me where did you got those pogo's from, I had been looking and can't find them...but I like them. :D

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by mati » Sep 18 2019 2:25pm

Hillhater wrote:
Sep 16 2019 10:36pm
depending on what you are useing it for..
I'm sorry I forgot to say ebike.

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by methods » Sep 18 2019 3:49pm

flippy wrote:
Sep 17 2019 11:40am
wow, that is quite a load of assumptions.

prehaps one should ask questions and/or properly read instead of making assumptions. pretty sure you are ignoring half of my previous post.

ps: i never glued a pack in my life and telling people to use hundreds of individual cell holders instead of spot welding is and remains a utter dumb piece of advice.
Heard.

You are right - I certainly did not read all of your post.

I never said anything about using hundreds of individual cell holders. What I suggested was a cast aluminum bracket that holds 5 cells or 10 cells in parallel, then possibly more in Series.

In this way you could poke in
And poke out
Cells all you like

If those cells are managed on a CELL BY CELL basis using small pucks, THEN YOU CAN BUILD A PACK OUT OF RANDOM GARBAGE AND IT WILL WORK JUST FINE.

It is you sir who utters dumb pieces of advice. Please step away from your singular perspective and recognize that SOME OF US are interested in building with SOMETHING OTHER than your BRAND NEW CELLS.

Get it brah? :confused:

-Schindler
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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