Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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methods   10 GW

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by methods » Sep 18 2019 3:52pm

[/quote]
Can you please tell me where did you got those pogo's from, I had been looking and can't find them...but I like them. :D
[/quote]

Those pogos pictured were from VooPoo, a manufacturer of Vape products.

The pogo's I have previously posted are produced by Mill-Max
I have no experience with them so I am not posting direct links
The key is to buy pogo from many manufacturers and evaulate

Most Pogo are about cycle count, as in with Test Fixture.
If you only need 100 cycles, much cheaper.

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by Hillhater » Sep 18 2019 7:03pm

methods wrote:
Sep 18 2019 3:49pm
What I suggested was a cast aluminum bracket that holds 5 cells or 10 cells in parallel, then possibly more in Series.

In this way you could poke in
And poke out
Cells all you like

If those cells are managed on a CELL BY CELL basis using small pucks, THEN YOU CAN BUILD A PACK OUT OF RANDOM GARBAGE AND IT WILL WORK JUST FINE.
This is one of those ideas that sounds good, but is not so smart in practice..
cast/machined multi cell holders with reliable pressure contacts would cost too much (why spend on an expensive battery “case” and then skimp by using “RANDOM GARBAGE” cells.?
You will spend a large proportion of your life chasing and changing out those random garbage cells.....rather than riding in the sun.
There are already several systems available to do this....but they dont seem so popular ???
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

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flippy   1 MW

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by flippy » Sep 19 2019 3:53am

methods wrote:
Sep 18 2019 3:49pm
I never said anything about using hundreds of individual cell holders. What I suggested was a cast aluminum bracket that holds 5 cells or 10 cells in parallel, then possibly more in Series.
In this way you could poke in
And poke out
Cells all you like
If those cells are managed on a CELL BY CELL basis using small pucks, THEN YOU CAN BUILD A PACK OUT OF RANDOM GARBAGE AND IT WILL WORK JUST FINE.
It is you sir who utters dumb pieces of advice. Please step away from your singular perspective and recognize that SOME OF US are interested in building with SOMETHING OTHER than your BRAND NEW CELLS.
Get it brah? :confused:
-Schindler
WHY would you even recommend using worn out cells and recommend using very expensive cell holders in a very dodgy setup when someone is CLEARLY saying they want new cells and rather spend more then deal with a dodgy setup?
you know perfectly well that a pack made of garbage cells is NOT reliable or gives the performance one would expect.
and spending a LOT more on expensive cell holders does not make sense when trying to skimp on spending money on good cells. that is like putting ferrari rims and tires on your honda ecobox and expect the same performance.
there is a VERY good set of reasons commercial packs do not sport user replacable cells.

please stop your "quest" to interject your personal beliefs that using new cells is the worst thing in the world.
your enviroment claims and solutions are shortsighted at best. if you want to discuss that: make a new topic.
if you want to build garbage packs you can go right ahead but keep those recommendations away from people that clearly state they want a new high quality battery. if someone comes along and wants to spend a lot of money anf effort in constantly repairing their pack with garbage cells you can go right ahead, but with its for brand new quality packs you need to dial down the greenpeace-talk and stop giving the wrong advice.

dont take it as me being rude, i just dont like fluffing conversations on forums.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

john61ct   1.21 GW

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by john61ct » Sep 19 2019 6:21am

Well even starting with brand new cells I personally want a great solderless build design that allows easy swapping out of individual cells.

So likewise stop assuming a spot-welded pack is "the only" way to go. Sure, maybe for cost reasons commercially, but DIY building there are many different technologies, and that's how they move forward as well.

As long as critical factors taken care of, and doesn't cost more than the cells themselves.

Every new batch will soon enough become old and worn, and tossing the whole pack just because the first 10% have reached EoL capacity seems a major waste.

Not talking environmental reasons either, the process of breaking down / reassembling a welded pack if just a few "lemon" cells reveal themselves, seems stupid difficult.

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flippy   1 MW

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by flippy » Sep 19 2019 7:57am

trust, me if there is a cost effective non-welding solution that can deliver the same reliablitty and power density i am all over it. sadly there is none.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

john61ct   1.21 GW

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by john61ct » Sep 19 2019 8:20am

I have one already, doesn't even cost more, minimal volume or weight increase,

just not yet ready to be posted.

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by methods » Oct 21 2019 12:17pm

flippy wrote:
Sep 19 2019 3:53am
WHY would you even recommend using worn out cells
Because this is an R&D forum and we are working 10, 20 years out on solutions that are practical and scale.
If this were your personal sales forum then I would agree with you.
flippy wrote:
Sep 19 2019 3:53am
please stop your "quest" to interject your personal beliefs
I hear you.
I am simply pointing out the problem with massively welded 18650 packs.
They are wasteful and short sighted.
There are better solutions, as you stated.


flippy wrote:
Sep 19 2019 3:53am
dont take it as me being rude, i just dont like fluffing conversations on forums.
That is because you are here on Business and I am here on Pleasure.
Good day to you sir.

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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flippy   1 MW

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by flippy » Oct 21 2019 3:36pm

methods wrote:
Oct 21 2019 12:17pm
flippy wrote:
Sep 19 2019 3:53am
WHY would you even recommend using worn out cells
Because this is an R&D forum and we are working 10, 20 years out on solutions that are practical and scale.
If this were your personal sales forum then I would agree with you.
flippy wrote:
Sep 19 2019 3:53am
please stop your "quest" to interject your personal beliefs
I hear you.
I am simply pointing out the problem with massively welded 18650 packs.
They are wasteful and short sighted.
There are better solutions, as you stated.
flippy wrote:
Sep 19 2019 3:53am
dont take it as me being rude, i just dont like fluffing conversations on forums.
That is because you are here on Business and I am here on Pleasure.
Good day to you sir.
-methods
1: this is not a R&D forum (sharing info is not R&D) and this has nothing to do with either practical or scale. this is about using the wrong stuff in the wrong way.

2: tesla and basically every battery maker seems to disagree with you as do i as my income depends on it.

3: i am not here for business, i am not shilling for customers here and i never had a customer that is from this forum.
i am sharing my professional knowledge free of charge and unlike you i am doing it without making stuff personal.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

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agniusm   10 MW

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by agniusm » Jan 02 2020 2:18am

flippy wrote:
Sep 19 2019 7:57am
trust, me if there is a cost effective non-welding solution that can deliver the same reliablitty and power density i am all over it. sadly there is none.
Wander what you mean cost effective? Building with mine will cost less than buying, say Grin pre-made packs but then you need to assemble it yourself. I consider my solution still fresh but selling it for 3 years and having 0 negative feedback, i can say that it works quiet good. People mounting them on e-skateboards without protection and some have already clocked 1.5k km's
Image

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flippy   1 MW

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by flippy » Jan 02 2020 7:22am

agniusm wrote:
Jan 02 2020 2:18am
flippy wrote:
Sep 19 2019 7:57am
trust, me if there is a cost effective non-welding solution that can deliver the same reliablitty and power density i am all over it. sadly there is none.
Wander what you mean cost effective? Building with mine will cost less than buying, say Grin pre-made packs but then you need to assemble it yourself. I consider my solution still fresh but selling it for 3 years and having 0 negative feedback, i can say that it works quiet good. People mounting them on e-skateboards without protection and some have already clocked 1.5k km's
Image
your solution depends on too many different materials to keep their factory properties wich simply is too much of a variable in batteries where you dont want them.
its also restrictive in form factor and power density in comparison by using simple honycomb cell holders and spot welding and the cost advantage is simply not there. a replacement for spot welding needds to be superior otherwise it will not change.
your take on thsi is fine for DIY tinkerers, not "proper" commercial batteries that need to work for decades without fail.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

john61ct   1.21 GW

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by john61ct » Jan 02 2020 7:35am

Your values used to define "superior" are not universal.

Start from the premise that spot welding is 100% unacceptable, not worth any issues of energy density or lower cost.

Then look at how packs can be effectively built, where they can easily be atomized, cells treated as individual units then reassembled, perhaps in a completely different xPyS layout.

Within **that** context, then determine, what methods are most safe/secure, lower cost, most dense etc?

is how I approach it.

999zip999   100 GW

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by 999zip999 » Jan 02 2020 11:22am

:| Okay back to your battery how many amps do you think you'll be pulling from your battery for your e-bike how many ampere hours will you need.

ES was having a little fun. Move forward.

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agniusm   10 MW

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by agniusm » Jan 03 2020 8:20am

flippy wrote:
Sep 19 2019 7:57am
your solution depends on too many different materials to keep their factory properties wich simply is too much of a variable in batteries where you dont want them.
its also restrictive in form factor and power density in comparison by using simple honycomb cell holders and spot welding and the cost advantage is simply not there. a replacement for spot welding needds to be superior otherwise it will not change.
your take on thsi is fine for DIY tinkerers, not "proper" commercial batteries that need to work for decades without fail.
My solution does not rely on many materials, not many more that of a spotwelded pack.
I thought the talk was about our builds of the batteries and not commercial so lets compare apples to apples.
Density is not always a thing, its more of a mindset in most cases.
Its possible to build dense pack using my method using staggered approach but that would be financially unwise for me, hence the form factor that is less dense but suitable for larger audience. My shout was challenging your saying that there is no solution when there is. It may not satisfy your needs but it works for thousands and so far 3 year reliability is not a bad start on compression based battery pack.
I have seen professionally made segway batteries which are spotwelded, and seen some failing cause of spotwelding. When you say "decades" in DIY context, you start to look like a naysayer and you will dismiss any valid argument thrown at you just to prove your unproven point.
I can guarantee you that someone who is coming to DIY solution that does not require welding will be times and times better, cheaper and far more enjoyable, and for those who done welding and use something i have, they wont wont to comeback and that is a feedback i get. Then there is power. I will do comparison between spotwelded and compression pack sometime to show the benefits.

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by 999zip999 » Jan 03 2020 11:33am

Agniusm has a great solution for your needs if it fits your bike.

999zip999   100 GW

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Re: Battery jungle, Lipo, 18650 or 21700 help please.

Post by 999zip999 » Jan 03 2020 2:28pm

Plus how many amps max will you be pulling ?

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