Tesla Model 3

I am not really interested in the car race especially when the Tesla they will use is a non-production special testing model.

In real Tesla news, bodies of Tesla cars have been photographed moving through the Tesla Gigafactory 3 in Shanghai, speculation is still rife that its probably just moving car shells through to model out the robotics and production machines, specially when the factory looks like an empty shell otherwise.
https://electrek.co/2019/09/18/tesla-gigafactory-3-leaked-pictures-show-model-3-bodies/
https://www.thedrive.com/tech/29929/when-will-teslas-shanghai-factory-start-making-cars-in-earnest-listen-to-ms-li



I guess this is a moment for those "evil Tesla shorters" to be saying "nooo"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDYNVH0U3cs
[youtube]wDYNVH0U3cs[/youtube]

TheBeastie said:

I am not really interested in the car race especially when the Tesla they will use is a non-production special testing model.

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This is a production Model S just not to be produced for 6 mo-1 year

Hillhater said:

We know a standard P100 pack would not last alap without overheating .

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Arlo1 said:

We do? Most tracks get a few laps with the 100kwh battery before heat is a problem. Also you don't even know what is currently the "standard" battery.

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Arlo1 said:

As for turning off the thermal cut backs good luck. The model s would be on fire by the end of the lap.......

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Hillhater said:

Hillhater said:

We know a standard P100 pack would not last alap without overheating .

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Arlo1 said:

We do? Most tracks get a few laps with the 100kwh battery before heat is a problem. Also you don't even know what is currently the "standard" battery.

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Arlo1 said:

As for turning off the thermal cut backs good luck. The model s would be on fire by the end of the lap.......

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There is a BIG difference between reducing power by 5% to make it sustain a few more minutes VS overheating and shutting down until the car cools off.

So to get a McLaren beating electric car I need to use high kv motors that can get me to 220mph+ on 400v I'll be using alot of current to supply all the torque I need and even the battery needs to be high discharge cells and with good cooling in place not to hsve power limiting but id be limited by car design(size) to around 20-30 kWh of high discharge cells to be able to keep such a high current demand and not limp at 200+ mph after barely accelerating to the speed.

Seems to me we need a 2 fold increase in battery density vs performance and we could see tremendously powerful cars and everyday cars would have very good usability we are edging ever closer to seemless power, I'm spotting more and more chargers everyday and cars like the Corsa will be decent little ecompact but for performance there's still a range factor.

Ianhill said:

So to get a McLaren beating electric car I need to use high kv motors that can get me to 220mph+ on 400v I'll be using alot of current to supply all the torque I need and even the battery needs to be high discharge cells and with good cooling in place not to hsve power limiting but id be limited by car design(size) to around 20-30 kWh of high discharge cells to be able to keep such a high current demand and not limp at 200+ mph after barely accelerating to the speed.

Seems to me we need a 2 fold increase in battery density vs performance and we could see tremendously powerful cars and everyday cars would have very good usability we are edging ever closer to seemless power, I'm spotting more and more chargers everyday and cars like the Corsa will be decent little ecompact but for performance there's still a range factor.

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As I posted the cells exist. But you trade something for the power density...

The Maxwell acquisition and Tesla's new patent point at all you need to know

https://electrek.co/2019/09/13/tesla-patent-battery-cell-better-performance-cheaper/

This is the only news I have been seeing on the Porche Taycan vs the Tesla race.
The Taycan literally lapping broken down Model S.
https://twitter.com/evdefender/status/1174789018489380870?s=20

https://youtu.be/EM4EvDRObj0
[youtube]EM4EvDRObj0[/youtube]

I wonder if they put the cover on to protect the paint...?
......or their pride ?

Arlo1 said:

As I posted the cells exist. But you trade something for the power density...

The Maxwell acquisition and Tesla's new patent point at all you need to know

https://electrek.co/2019/09/13/tesla-patent-battery-cell-better-performance-cheaper/

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Had a little read through it seems this electrolyte additive being developed is not related to the Maxwell acquisition ? Maybe we can expect a busy few years on this front as there crazy interest and lots of claims being made of future cells in development that are close but we have yet to get some real serious juicy next level stuff.

It's getting real close though specially starting from lead acid and working up the chain over the past 8 or so years since i found the electric scooters part of the forum and been transporting myself electrically, barely at all to begin with but as I've developed and the tech every next build is always going to be something great from the lead acid days to laptop cells and now 18650 and Lipo the path of learning can be fun and full of experiments even if a little dangerous it's all in the name of the game.

Like I said before the crx is a beast love it your work with the leaf motor is great you have done alot for the forum and the diy scene so tap on back for that from me.

Ianhill said:

Arlo1 said:

As I posted the cells exist. But you trade something for the power density...

The Maxwell acquisition and Tesla's new patent point at all you need to know

https://electrek.co/2019/09/13/tesla-patent-battery-cell-better-performance-cheaper/

Click to expand...

Had a little read through it seems this electrolyte additive being developed is not related to the Maxwell acquisition ? Maybe we can expect a busy few years on this front as there crazy interest and lots of claims being made of future cells in development that are close but we have yet to get some real serious juicy next level stuff.

It's getting real close though specially starting from lead acid and working up the chain over the past 8 or so years since i found the electric scooters part of the forum and been transporting myself electrically, barely at all to begin with but as I've developed and the tech every next build is always going to be something great from the lead acid days to laptop cells and now 18650 and Lipo the path of learning can be fun and full of experiments even if a little dangerous it's all in the name of the game.

Like I said before the crx is a beast love it your work with the leaf motor is great you have done alot for the forum and the diy scene so tap on back for that from me.

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Hey thanks.

Stay tunned because more to come did you see the new build? Axiom?

Anyways I think the Maxwell thing is legit. And the fact Tesla patented something means something no point in a patent for something that is vaporware. Elon said about 3 months ago the Tech from Maxwell would go into the cars in about 1 year. This all lines up with the timeline... Also they plan to do a battery seminar this fall/winter which will fill us in on much of the details.
He is sure they will have a million mile battery when the put this new tech into the cars in about 9mo from now. Thats elon time so maybe is still 1 year away...

Not seen the axiom where can I find it ?

“can achieve 7:20”..... WTF does that mean ?
And they should invest in some better/ (more convincing ) data logging.
As ever, Musk is the master of marketing BS !

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6464/Vft9mM.jpg

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Ianhill said:

Not seen the axiom where can I find it ?

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Here is a link to the ES thread and the hackaday challange. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=89056


https://hackaday.io/project/164932-axiom-100kw-motor-controller
We are top 20 in hackaday now its up to the judges but if we win we get 125k to bring it to market.
I joined forces with Marcos, Highhopes (Sonny) and Maxi (not on ES) to make this happen.

This controller is really next level.

I've been following the vesc scene got a flipsky 6.6 I've been playing with and can say the tuneability is amazing with even a intermediate playing around with it, I've seen a few of your vids the igbt invertors you make are something else I'll have a good read through the links best of luck with the prize.

“can achieve 7:20”...WTF does that mean?

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This claim means that they believe the newest Model-S can run one full lap of the Nürburgring track in 7 minutes, 20 seconds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nürburgring

? Are you suggesting they never ran a full lap ?
But they just spent several days there running laps with the stated intention of setting a time.
So why no time posted ? Not even an “unofficial” time ?
They were happy to post a time for Laguna
At least they qualified for the “Bongard” club. !

Hillhater said:

? Are you suggesting they never ran a full lap ?
But they just spent several days there running laps with the stated intention of setting a time.
So why no time posted ? Not even an “unofficial” time ?
They were happy to post a time for Laguna
At least they qualified for the “Bongard” club. !

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Yeah that's not the claim here.

But maybe thats why. Is it was Unofficial and they want something more official. But they will be back.

Everyone wins this is good for everyone. They will make their car better and they will prove it and they will push others to do the same. This means less fuel burnt and cleaner air for everyone long term!

Arlo1 said:

.
But maybe thats why. Is it was Unofficial and they want something more official. But they will be back.

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They were happy to spread the word (and video) of the unofficial Laguna lap “Record” ....
....so why not even a suggestion of an “unofficial “ best lap time for Nurburg, if it was a s fast as suggested ?

Speculation, the fact it is more powerful and a non official time/fight that happened round the back of the main pub in town and one got caught with pants down didn't have a real tuning just a cut eye and I'm sure Porsche will not take it lying down but it goes to show that it's serious now they have been cut and its time for Porsches ice man and coach to come out and put their fighter straight.

I've been shown how 400v is a better choice for a system over 800v if you want more range better efficiency and less heat only thing better really is that crazy fast charge time and easer for charger manufacture to make but to build a 800v 215s15p pack that could output 500 amps and around 400 megawatt within a 21700 cell format you would need around 3225 cells and only end up with 42kwh using a 21700 heavy discharge commercial cell.

Sounds simular to what Porsche is doing with out looking at any details what so ever of the pack and the only advantage I can see is the motor don't need to handle such high currents and 800v is still easily insulated but the power electronics will have a high vrms loss not good for a car that leaves the track and uses the road.

Its stupid now how in what is more or less the turn of a new decade ford is coming out with mild 48v hybrids when rover had a mgtf hpd back in 2003 simular performance, Ford only jumps when they are sure the tech is proven and theres a puddle to land in i don't see much innovation coming from them they choosing a silly future in my eyes killing the fiesta and focus to concentrate on mpv by the time they tool up trends will change so don't chase the trend set them and that's not they game no more.

....I've been shown how 400v is a better choice for a system over 800v if you want more range better efficiency and less heat .....

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Where did you learn that gem ?
You do realise that Toyota/Lexus have been. ( and continue to), use 800v drive systems in all their “Synergy Drive” hybrid vehicles?
I dont think they would continue if they suspected it was wasting energy .

48v hybrid systems have been announced by most major manufacturers...Audi, VW, Merc, GM,, etc, ....as a way of reducing fuel consumption.
Ford have also anounced full hybrid, Plug in hybrid, and full BEV, versions of most of their popular vehicles...including the Focus.

Even though the current drops so the motor carries less current on a 800v system the vrms loss on the invertor increases so there's more heat per volt at the controller and less at the motor.

Guys,

You can charge just as fast at 400v as you can at 800v
As for efficiency its very close to a wash... VERY much all the same just 400v needs 2x the thickness of wires. But its about 100x less likely to kill you and 50x less challenging to get the systems isolated and safe.
Think BMS...... You BMS has 2x the channels and has to be rate for 2x the voltage protection...

Design constraints really I see it as, as we need more power we have to up the voltage so we dont end up with a bus bar system thick as the back of a distribution switching panel.

But if a car has 100kw max then 800v is not needed and the tesla can control more power with less volts so Porsche system only stands out on certain chargers by having 250kw fast charge that tesla cars don't get ?

I'm sure fully charged said that the Porsche has a worst kWh per mile than the tesla i wonder what the drag co is between them and how these figures compare to see which of these two oranges and apples taste best.

The Porsche has a gear and is going to feel best to push around but I can't even afford the air in the tyre so makes no diff to me.

Ianhill said:

Design constraints really I see it as, as we need more power we have to up the voltage so we dont end up with a bus bar system thick as the back of a distribution switching panel.

But if a car has 100kw max then 800v is not needed and the tesla can control more power with less volts so Porsche system only stands out on certain chargers by having 250kw fast charge that tesla cars don't get ?

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Model 3 can do 250KW the new S and X and roadster packs will do 250+ KW charging speeds.

If you ever get the time to look for the parts needed for a 800v system you will soon see a 400V system as a HUGE advantage.
Porsche likely added 30k to the cost of the car just because they made it 800v and it really give them no advantage at all.

Now having said that when we move to 10,000hp electric dragsters more voltage will be needed. As you will be looking to save every pound and make the controller(s) as small as possible...

Tesla owners testing out the new 'enhanced summon' on their kids, maybe it's just old negative me but I seriously felt nervous for that young girl.
https://twitter.com/evdefender/status/1176011779824070657?s=20