New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"
- Thread starter larsottar
- Start date
I'd like to thank casainho for making the following enjoyable.
Trek MT220 (24 inch tires, front suspension, hardtail) with 48V TSDZ2 and battery in dolphin case mounted under the downtube running v20 beta 1.
I wonder if casainho or anyone familiar with the code can tell me how the eMTB sensitivity level works? Does it act as a multiplier, i. e. torque on the pedal generated by rider x sensitivity level? Or act as a threshold, i.e., torque below a certain level will be ignored, so bike won't take off if you are at stop light and put your foot on the pedal (assuming brake not engaged). I suspect the latter, but then the question is what multiplier is used on human generated torque?
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Trek MT220 (24 inch tires, front suspension, hardtail) with 48V TSDZ2 and battery in dolphin case mounted under the downtube running v20 beta 1.
I wonder if casainho or anyone familiar with the code can tell me how the eMTB sensitivity level works? Does it act as a multiplier, i. e. torque on the pedal generated by rider x sensitivity level? Or act as a threshold, i.e., torque below a certain level will be ignored, so bike won't take off if you are at stop light and put your foot on the pedal (assuming brake not engaged). I suspect the latter, but then the question is what multiplier is used on human generated torque?
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bluesoc said:
Come on man you act like you don't know that most modern cars need just an oil change after 15,000 to 20.000km (witch i was talking about is a good in my opinion trouble free life span of any ebike motor!)and only after the other 15.000 -20.000 need the full 'expensive' service with spark plugs,valve inspection and so on!
dahu33
1 mW
I've created the thread below a few days ago but I haven't got the traction I was expecting. If anyone own or previously owned both a TSDZ2 and a Q100 or Q128, I would love their opinion and feedback there.
TSDZ2 mid-drive vs Q100CST hub motor?
TSDZ2 mid-drive vs Q100CST hub motor?
casainho
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I did own both that motors before changing to the mid drive motors with TSDZ2.dahu33 said:
I even started the project of OpenSource firmware development for KT motor controllers and I used that same motors to be driven by that controllers with our firmware!! -- I mean, the firmware just for the same controller you are using in your ebike, the S06S. This firmware is still being maintained and developed by other developers and is popular, you can find a thread on this forum.
For me, TSDZ2 provides much more torque at startup because of low gears and much higher speed of high gears, using much less battery power, meaning a stronger and lighter ebike. Also, TSDZ2 includes the torque sensor while that motors do not, you will have to buy it as an extra and install, each is not so easy.
TSDZ2 is way better for the ones looking to go to mountains doing MTB as also using use the same ebike daily on the city and riding at 45 kms/h on flat roads as I do -- here them, full suspension, large tires and rear panniers for load:
But yes, I do more maintenance with TSDZ2 but I guess that is because I do now much more than I did with that hub motors, that I couldn't do anyway with them.
I would love to also have a bike like that, I own a Brompton but I do not want to install a motor on it, so someday I will use another folding bike.
Another advantage of TSDZ2 running our OpenSource firmware is that you can easily configure for any battery size, meaning you can DIY a battery with the weight and size optimized for typical ride on your Dahon. And quick change to another battery for longer range if you need and configure on the fly on the display.
If your ebike is smaller, lighter and has no rear panniers as mine (and you do not weight as much as me 105kgs), then for sure you can have a smaller and light battery pack: mine is 14S3P (42x 18650 cells, 500Wh), so 52V but probably you can go with a 36V motor and 36V battery, 10S2P (20x 18650 cells, 225Wh), which would be about only 47% of the size and weight of mine.
About the sound, the recent versions of TSDZ2 on the market, are very silent due to some mechanical changes.
Dear casainho you are basically telling us that the TSDZ2 running OpenSource firmware is a better choice in every aspect(more efficiant,more torque,better for mtbikking,better for commuting, ect)compared to hub motors such as the Q100 or Q128 but with the only negative that it needs needs more maintainance
(and realy how much will it hurt our pocket for the broken down parts for this maintanece?) ,but what if someone does not want to void his warranty and has to keep his tsdz2 with stock firmware for 1-2 years, how does a stock TSDZ2 compare to the above hub motors?
I am asking because if most of the above advantages that the TSDZ2 running OpenSource firmware has are not present in the stock firmware that the tsdz2 comes with(or even if the stock TSDZ2 has still some but small advantages compared to the hub motor) and you only get the more maintence part then that's another ball game my friend!
(and realy how much will it hurt our pocket for the broken down parts for this maintanece?) ,but what if someone does not want to void his warranty and has to keep his tsdz2 with stock firmware for 1-2 years, how does a stock TSDZ2 compare to the above hub motors?
I am asking because if most of the above advantages that the TSDZ2 running OpenSource firmware has are not present in the stock firmware that the tsdz2 comes with(or even if the stock TSDZ2 has still some but small advantages compared to the hub motor) and you only get the more maintence part then that's another ball game my friend!
casainho
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As I also told, in my experience, I do much more maintenance, but because I take much more out of them.valsam said:
I don't know how TSDZ2 behave running at 250W only, because I simple bought it I never used it before I had the very first of our firmware version working.
And don't forget the torque sensor, or maybe you may not value it.
I think is ok to go with that hub motors. Also I understand the question of price, you are from Greece and I am from Portugal, countries with economical hard living. That was also the reason I always decided to use cheap and popular Chinese technology, because is way cheap to develop for, buy and do the maintenance. I had to pay 4 ebikes for my family and I do their maintenance, so I also must be careful with costs. Anyway, over the years I am being taking a lot of of the ebikes, much about health and fitness, as also special family long trips and daily communintg trips to work, go shopping, beach, etc.
Please look at the KT firmware thread, there is lot of information about that cheap motor controllers paired with that cheap hub motors, and with optional torque sensor. And with all the flexibility of our OpenSource firmware.
casainho =RESPECT! :thumb:
Wife needs one car,daughter needs the other (univercity student),not a chance of buying another,not even a small moped or motorcycle because of insuranse and road fees and services,so the only way of me having a cheap way of transportation was in my mind a 500W -750W conversion kit but a cheap an reliable one if possible!
Cheap is the tsdz2,little bit more expensive the bbs02,alot more the BBSHD,read about the burnt controllers even with the new mosfets that are over 120$ to buy read about snaping chains once every little and gave a pass on the Bafangs,saw that tsdz2 have there own problems with blue gear,torque sensors,sprang clutch,controllers,but with much lower cost in parts compared to the Bafangs but still adds up to a good sum of money if all af these happen every 5-6.000 km!
From the little that i have learned reading posts here and elsewhare (dont forget i am a noob!)i understand that a hub motor has limitations ,can't go MTBiking,and are less efficient with lower torque but they are damn cheap and pretty reliable compared to the above mid drives,so i ordered 3 more naylon gears (15$ all 3) and some lithium grease for just in case and hope that i can achieve that 10-20.000km lifespan!
((Sorry for this offtopic but by the way can anyone tell me if it is needed from me to open a geared hub motor to regrease every now and then,and if yes how many km should i make this inspection?))
Wife needs one car,daughter needs the other (univercity student),not a chance of buying another,not even a small moped or motorcycle because of insuranse and road fees and services,so the only way of me having a cheap way of transportation was in my mind a 500W -750W conversion kit but a cheap an reliable one if possible!
Cheap is the tsdz2,little bit more expensive the bbs02,alot more the BBSHD,read about the burnt controllers even with the new mosfets that are over 120$ to buy read about snaping chains once every little and gave a pass on the Bafangs,saw that tsdz2 have there own problems with blue gear,torque sensors,sprang clutch,controllers,but with much lower cost in parts compared to the Bafangs but still adds up to a good sum of money if all af these happen every 5-6.000 km!
From the little that i have learned reading posts here and elsewhare (dont forget i am a noob!)i understand that a hub motor has limitations ,can't go MTBiking,and are less efficient with lower torque but they are damn cheap and pretty reliable compared to the above mid drives,so i ordered 3 more naylon gears (15$ all 3) and some lithium grease for just in case and hope that i can achieve that 10-20.000km lifespan!
((Sorry for this offtopic but by the way can anyone tell me if it is needed from me to open a geared hub motor to regrease every now and then,and if yes how many km should i make this inspection?))
casainho
10 GW
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I were very happy with hub motors!! I am sure you will also willvalsam said:
Anyway, both TSDZ2 and parts as also KT controllers and Q85 motors and parts, are the most cheap on the market, here an example:
Controller:
- 17 euros cost the 250W the KT motor controller that implements FOC, for hub motors, on PSWPower.com
- 27 euros cost the 750 watts the TSDZ2 motor controller (does not implement FOC on original firmware but we do on our firmware), on PSWPower.com
Motor:
- 90 euros cost the Q85 36V250W HUB MOTOR on BMSBattery.com
- 68 euros costs the TSDZ2 motor, on PSWPower.com
This was my very first ebike, in 2010, with the KT motor controller of 250W, Q85 front motor 24V 250W and PAS only:
And this was my kid VERY HAPPY, only 2 years ago, testing for the first time his 18 inches wheel ebike with the Q85 front motor 24V 250W, with PAS and throttle:
[youtube]OW73Gx0u54g[/youtube]
My kid has now a MTB 20 inches ebike with TSDZ2, now he flies at 40 km/h and already does a bit of MTB, as also rides from home to home of the family.
I documented in Portuguese, the various hub motors and controllers I did use - use Google translator to understand:
- http://www.massacriticapt.net/?q=node/1213
- http://massacriticapt.net/?q=node/1441
- http://massacriticapt.net/?q=node/1470
- http://massacriticapt.net/?q=node/1610
- http://massacriticapt.net/?q=node/1620
- http://massacriticapt.net/?q=node/1647
And I can´t forget the HARD way I did learn, in 2012, that I would need torque arms to hold the motor axle in place and avoid break of the fork, them I moved to rear motors -- and by the way, mid drive motors don´t need torque arms, one less pair of pieces to buy and install:
Genesis Andy
100 µW
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- Jul 21, 2019
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- 9
I decided to use dynamo lights, just to separate the system in case battery went flat whilst out
I have a 48V motor and just bought a 52V battery and intend to use the OpenSource firmware, but first I want to try it out with the factory firmware for comparison.
I understand that to use a fully charged 52V battery on my 48V motor I need to make some changes to the factory firmware.
The Eco Cycles website has a guide to modifying the factory firmware, but there's a note saying it's no longer recommended because "New/Alternate TSDZ2 Firmware versions can restrict changes from taking effect". Instead they recommend flashing one of their complete profiles.
https://www.eco-ebike.com/blogs/eco-cycles-instructionals/tsdz2programmingfromscratch
Does anyone know exactly what the problem is with the old way now? Would it be just that the memory locations could be different?
Also they seem to only have one version of the 52V factory firmware for download, but should there be different versions for throttle/non-throttle?
I understand that to use a fully charged 52V battery on my 48V motor I need to make some changes to the factory firmware.
The Eco Cycles website has a guide to modifying the factory firmware, but there's a note saying it's no longer recommended because "New/Alternate TSDZ2 Firmware versions can restrict changes from taking effect". Instead they recommend flashing one of their complete profiles.
https://www.eco-ebike.com/blogs/eco-cycles-instructionals/tsdz2programmingfromscratch
Does anyone know exactly what the problem is with the old way now? Would it be just that the memory locations could be different?
Also they seem to only have one version of the 52V factory firmware for download, but should there be different versions for throttle/non-throttle?
Open source firmware: Where do I begin?
I've been happily riding around with my stock 250W tsdz2 since 2016 and I've also been following this forum on and off out of curiosity for the open source firmware project. There's a lot of information in this thread to sort out for me, so I was hoping someone here could help me sum it all up.
Recently my xh-18 display stopped working properly. Everything looked normal, but I was unable top change power levels and the display seemed to choose an arbitrary max speed of ca 23 km/h. This was annoying so for the time beeing I have reverted to the old vlcd-5, but I'd rather like to try out the open source firmware and a new display.
For training and workouts I ride my road bike, but for my daily transport around town the Bullitt cargobike with the tsdz2 is what I use all year round. Because of mye road bike fascination, I tend to ride with a high cadence (80-100 rpm) and my tsdz2 isn't particularily good in that area. It seems the new firmware solves this issue.
Every now and then I also carry heavy loads up towards 100 kgs. I'm not expecting to be able to ride that sort of weight up a hill at any kind of speed, but the way the power is delivered from the tsdz2 (max somewhere around 80 rpm) means it doesn't match up with my own max power at around 100-105 rpm. The regular weight of the bike with the normal daily load is about 50-60 kgs plus my own 80 kgs. The low cadence on the motor also means I'm not as able to carry the speed over rolling hills the way I would on my road bike. I hope the open source firmware can help sort this out in a better way.
In stock form, the 250w motor is a little weak. I'm fine with that actually, but the annoying thing is the way max power drops off as the battery level goes down past 60%. If I understand this correctly, the open source firmware fixes this issue? As it is now I usually regard the battery as empty as soon as I'm below 50% charge which gives my approx 500 wh battery a range of a measly 30 km. Of course, the battery isn't empty, but power drops off too much for the motor to be of much use. This is worse during winter than in the summer, of course.
I see quite a few places recommending adding the temp sensor. Since my bike is heavy and I like to ride as fast as possible I suppose adding one would be smart. However, do I need a special controller for this? I only have the stock 36v controller that came with the motor in 2016.
Now, trying to wrap my head around the installation procedure, I think I have come to realize that I'd rather pay for a new controller and display with everything installed. Would this be a sensible way of doing this or are there other good reasons to install and flash it myself?
I can buy an 850c display locally (I like supporting my local (e)bike shop). Perhaps even some of the cables and wires can be sourced there if needed.
I don't have a windows-pc, but my flat is full of apple-computers. Is this a problem? Can I perform the installation and firmware flashing with an apple computer? Years ago I used a gimbal for an RC-drone that need firmware updates through a windows program I ran through some sort of emulator on the Mac. Does any one here know if this sort of thing still works?
I'm a little afraid of bricking the whole motor during this procedure in case something goes wrong. Will there be any way of resetting or reverting to the old firmware at a later stage?
Thanks for any help or information.
I've been happily riding around with my stock 250W tsdz2 since 2016 and I've also been following this forum on and off out of curiosity for the open source firmware project. There's a lot of information in this thread to sort out for me, so I was hoping someone here could help me sum it all up.
Recently my xh-18 display stopped working properly. Everything looked normal, but I was unable top change power levels and the display seemed to choose an arbitrary max speed of ca 23 km/h. This was annoying so for the time beeing I have reverted to the old vlcd-5, but I'd rather like to try out the open source firmware and a new display.
For training and workouts I ride my road bike, but for my daily transport around town the Bullitt cargobike with the tsdz2 is what I use all year round. Because of mye road bike fascination, I tend to ride with a high cadence (80-100 rpm) and my tsdz2 isn't particularily good in that area. It seems the new firmware solves this issue.
Every now and then I also carry heavy loads up towards 100 kgs. I'm not expecting to be able to ride that sort of weight up a hill at any kind of speed, but the way the power is delivered from the tsdz2 (max somewhere around 80 rpm) means it doesn't match up with my own max power at around 100-105 rpm. The regular weight of the bike with the normal daily load is about 50-60 kgs plus my own 80 kgs. The low cadence on the motor also means I'm not as able to carry the speed over rolling hills the way I would on my road bike. I hope the open source firmware can help sort this out in a better way.
In stock form, the 250w motor is a little weak. I'm fine with that actually, but the annoying thing is the way max power drops off as the battery level goes down past 60%. If I understand this correctly, the open source firmware fixes this issue? As it is now I usually regard the battery as empty as soon as I'm below 50% charge which gives my approx 500 wh battery a range of a measly 30 km. Of course, the battery isn't empty, but power drops off too much for the motor to be of much use. This is worse during winter than in the summer, of course.
I see quite a few places recommending adding the temp sensor. Since my bike is heavy and I like to ride as fast as possible I suppose adding one would be smart. However, do I need a special controller for this? I only have the stock 36v controller that came with the motor in 2016.
Now, trying to wrap my head around the installation procedure, I think I have come to realize that I'd rather pay for a new controller and display with everything installed. Would this be a sensible way of doing this or are there other good reasons to install and flash it myself?
I can buy an 850c display locally (I like supporting my local (e)bike shop). Perhaps even some of the cables and wires can be sourced there if needed.
I don't have a windows-pc, but my flat is full of apple-computers. Is this a problem? Can I perform the installation and firmware flashing with an apple computer? Years ago I used a gimbal for an RC-drone that need firmware updates through a windows program I ran through some sort of emulator on the Mac. Does any one here know if this sort of thing still works?
I'm a little afraid of bricking the whole motor during this procedure in case something goes wrong. Will there be any way of resetting or reverting to the old firmware at a later stage?
Thanks for any help or information.
casainho
10 GW
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2011
- Messages
- 6,045
I am just waiting to be a father again and then have a reason to justify buy a Bullitt cargo bike like yours and also put TSDZ2 in it!!mscoot said:
Go to the wiki and read it, the information there is much more structured. Also go to the shops point there that sell TSDZ2 and displays with our OpenSource already installed, they have very good documentation on what are the advanced features, and trust them as this shops are runs by very experienced guys and they know what they say.
Good luck and enjoy riding your bicycles
eyebyesickle
10 kW
famichiki said:
The 52v profile works with or without a throttle, on 6 pin or 8 pin systems, FYI
Genesis Andy
100 µW
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2019
- Messages
- 9
I bought my TSDZ2 kit preprogrammed with open firmware V 18.2 I believe. What improvements is there over my version and the 20. ?
Im perfectly happy with the way the motor works and the settings I've adjusted. The bike is running a 52V battery.
If in the future I have a motor controller failure will I be able to install 18.2 or will I have to install V20 or whatever it is then. Also does the display need upgrading too?
Im perfectly happy with the way the motor works and the settings I've adjusted. The bike is running a 52V battery.
If in the future I have a motor controller failure will I be able to install 18.2 or will I have to install V20 or whatever it is then. Also does the display need upgrading too?
windburner
1 W
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2019
- Messages
- 54
famichiki said:
I purchased a 750W 48V TSDZ and a 48V battery (which charges to 54.6V), and encountered the well reported overvoltage response from the TSDZ2. I tried the 52V factory firmware (FF) from the site. It solved the overvoltage response! For the Eco-Cycles memory programming, I found that the system voltage setting (memory location) only reflected in a more appropriate charge indicator, but had no affect on drive output. Also, changes to the max amps setting had zero affect.
However, in actual practice, I found that the 52V FF provided lower power output (on the big hill I have to climb just before home base) as compared to the original 48V FF as installed (I saved it before re-flashing). I clamped on an amp meter and took both for a ride, and found that to be the case. I don't recall the exact numbers, but the 52V FF limited itself to a peak around 12 amps, while the original 48V FF peaked near 14 amps. I was quite surprised. It I remember correctly, the checksum of the 48V FF from the site repository matches the checksum of my saved original FF, so they seem to be the same, but I did not do a road test.
The v0.19.0 Flexible OSF also eliminated the overvoltage issue, and offers lots of settings to tune, while adding a lag to the pedal assist onset, but, I hear that v0.20.0 is better. My SW102 display supports v19, but I hear that v20 support is in the works. :wink:
Genesis Andy said:
You will be able to install the old version or the new version - yes the display and motor controller need to be on the same version
Changelog from the stable 0.19.0 to 0.20.0 beta 1 (LCD3 display only)
- Smoother motor torque control
- Overall faster acceleration, much more responsive and more adjustable/customizable
- Named the previous riding mode Power Assist
- Introduced Torque Assist, Cadence Assist and eMBT Assist
- A new automatic calibration process for the cadence sensor
- A new Advanced Mode for the cadence sensor with quicker response times
- A new light mode configuration where users can choose to enable/disable/remember light state through a power cycle
- External light configuration where users can configure the lights to flash, brake-flash when braking and much more!
- Startup without pedal rotation now with adjustable torque threshold
- Improved the KT-LCD3 firmware and updated it to be able to communicate with the new 0.20.0 motor controller firmware
- Added an adjustable button debounce timer for Walk Assist.
- Added a slight button debounce timer for Cruise
- Improved Walk Assist with soft-start
- Improved Walk Assist and Cruise safety
- Cruise much smoother and accurate
- More customizable Street Mode
- Smoother motor control to prolong life of the blue and metal gear
- Brakes now immediately disable the motor
- TSDZ2 coaster brake version can enable system braking by applying backwards torque
- More error codes/states that make the firmware safer to use and protects the hardware
- Higher resolution on the torque sensor output and increased operating range
- Better system calibration during startup
- Adjustable ADC torque conversion for accurate human power in the operating range of the TSDZ2 torque sensor
- Much more accurate data displayed on the KT-LCD3 with a new highly adjustable filter
- Better filtering used in the motor controller firmware
- Improved EEPROM controller
- EEPROM "Reset to defaults" and other functions now operate as intended
- New and improved wheel speed sensor and cadence sensor code
- Improved ADC conversion accuracy for current, voltage and therefore wattage and watt-hour measurements
- Changed and simplified configuration menu (KT-LCD3)
- Added new symbols for readability (KT-LCD3)
- Solved bugs with the TSDZ2 Coaster Brake version
- Backwards motor rotation is now detected and displayed as 0 ERPS
- System changes responsiveness depending on wheel speed
- Extensive refactoring throughout the entire system
- Simplified code for future development and display support, highly modular
- And much more... See the 0.20.0 wiki for even more information!
Wiki:
https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... %7C-Manual
mscoot said:
I ride a Gazelle Cabby cargo bike with the TSDZ2 running 0.20 beta1. Bike is 45KG, cargo (kids + stuff) 50KG's ish + me
I like higher cadence, maybe not as high as you. With a flat battery (35V) I get 150-200W of power at 90RPM. There is a high cadence mode that may also help. Unfortunately you won't get max power (say 35V*16A = 500W+) at this battery level. Suggest you try high cadence mode or hotrod and run a higher battery voltage
I just installed the temp sensor. If your controller is 8 wire and has the throttle option it is simplier to install. If not you will need to solder some wires to the controller to enable.mscoot said:
Swapping the controller (in the motor) means a fair amount of dismantling. For me simpler to flash the existing. Ryan on the forum here (https://www.electrifybike.com/) may be able to assist for pre-programmed controllers and displays.mscoot said:
casainho said:I am just waiting to be a father again and then have a reason to justify buy a Bullitt cargo bike like yours and also put TSDZ2 in it!!
Go to the wiki and read it, the information there is much more structured. Also go to the shops point there that sell TSDZ2 and displays with our OpenSource already installed, they have very good documentation on what are the advanced features, and trust them as this shops are runs by very experienced guys and they know what they say.
Good luck and enjoy riding your bicycles
Congratulations!
The Bullitt is a nice bike, but it is a little small if you need to regularily carry to kids in the cargo box. You might also find it tricky to install the TSDZ2 on a Bullitt. Older frames (like mine) have slightly different welds around the bottom bracket area that allow you to install it if you grind away a little on the tsdz2 motor casings. I posted about this way back in 2016 when I did the install. I think the Bullitt frame has had some subtle changes to make it stiffer and to reinforce it. The results are more fat welds around that area.I've read through the wiki and it is really informative. However, there are still a few things I'm wondering about:
How do I keep the firmware updated or change certain settings if I don't have a PC (only Apple computers here)? Can this be done over bluetooth with and android phone if I order the SW102 display?
Is the temperature sensor install really plug-and-play? As in: stick it on the motor, connect it to the new controller I'll be ordering and off I go?
