Hi power inverter for Nissan leaf motor. Dyno's 302.3hp p15

coleasterling said:

If you found another good deal on 15's, there are some really, really good 245-15's these days, though they are mostly meant as AX and road race tires, not drag. Still, pretty sticky.

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For now I needed a rolling chassis.

These seem usable for a while.

I have a lot of other work to focus on.

I will come back to this in the spring or when the rest of the car is done and I have lots of money or when I have traction problems lol.

Arlo,

Awesome build, watched alot of your YouTube videos today. I had a question about your inverters and saw you prefer PMs on this forum, but I think I'm "too new" and it won't let me send PMs.

Love the CRX build!

FlatBlack said:

Arlo,

Awesome build, watched alot of your YouTube videos today. I had a question about your inverters and saw you prefer PMs on this forum, but I think I'm "too new" and it won't let me send PMs.

Love the CRX build!

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It will let you Send PM's But if its related to this EV build at all you should ask it here so others who have the same questions can see the answers before sending a PM. If its not feel free to send a PM.

-Arlin

RESPECT! You my friend have a beautiful mind, Great work. I plan to copy this in the future. Still trying to get my 88ysr50kw back up again. kelly kac 8080i is a lousy design, a good but expensive lesson I learned.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Robinev said:

RESPECT! You my friend have a beautiful mind, Great work. I plan to copy this in the future. Still trying to get my 88ysr50kw back up again. kelly kac 8080i is a lousy design, a good but expensive lesson I learned.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Thanks for the find words.

I blew up a Kelly trying to run my YSR lol. Loudest explosion I have heard!

I know right! Mine happened during regen pulled the controller out and opened the plastic inspections port plug and magic gray smoke Puffed out to confirm I pulled it out and shook the mf and sure enough I heard it rattle. Smfh.
Dude that Honda crx of yours is gonna be a winner.

Sorry to resurrect an aging thread, but has anyone tried this with a newer motor from a 2014 Model Leaf?

I can't find much information on the differences between motor versions in terms of saturation currents/cooling/etc. I think Arlo used the 2011 motor based on what's shown in his YT vids.

If anyone has used a 2014 motor at these higher powers, I'd be interested to know, as they are far more available where I live.

TheEBikeNinja said:

Sorry to resurrect an aging thread, but has anyone tried this with a newer motor from a 2014 Model Leaf?

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I dont think those motors are much different. Maybe they cut some cost with newer motor, but really it seems to be the same rotor and stator design. Resolver has the same polarity and motor is supposed to run at the same RPM and same PWR.

Construction of resolver in the back is dikfferent so you would have to make a different mount for RLS UVW encoder. Or use Kiwifiat resolver to commutation converter.

EDIT: Johannes here used his Leaf gen2 motor up to 100kW but i remember he has a limit of 130kW from original Nissan inverter. Lobotomized of course.
https://openinverter.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=24002#p24002

I think they used a sightly weaker magnet (but possibly has better heat properties, or just cheaper to make) and make the extra torque back with a little more gear ratio and a little more rpm (less rpm per volt back emf)

I see here someone with firsthand knowledge commented on Gen1 vs Gen2 performance...
https://openinverter.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=11702#p11702

If someone has a couple Gen 2 motors to send me I will test them and see what I can do for a discount on a controller for that person. I have not tested gen 2 yet but I suspect they will be lower peaks. But maybe higher power density.

I bit the bullet on a Gen2 motor, it was going really cheap (by UK standards), so I have something bigger than my ebike to test with.

The Gen2 looks to have a slightly lower Kv than Gen1, going by https://www.marklines.com/en/report/rep1899_201907 .

I'd help you test my Gen2, but shipping across the Atlantic isn't practical for me at the moment.

I've made a custom VESC before, but only at 12S, so I'll try using the EconoDual drivers+IGBTs that you used with the Axiom.

Also, there's a Leaf Inverter going for £330 (450 USD), would you recommend it as a source for the DC Link cap (and maybe the current sensors etc), given that I'll use the EconoDuals and a VESC/Axiom style control board?

I'd essentially be paying 450USD for one capacitor, so I'm looking for cheaper sources.

TheEBikeNinja said:

The Gen2 looks to have a slightly lower Kv than Gen1, going by https://www.marklines.com/en/report/rep1899_201907 .

I've made a custom VESC before, but only at 12S, so I'll try using the EconoDual drivers+IGBTs that you used with the Axiom.

I'd essentially be paying 450USD for one capacitor, so I'm looking for cheaper sources.

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What leads you to the conclusion that the EM57 has a lower Kv?

Interestingly if you follow the links at the bottom of that url through to the power train https://www.marklines.com/en/report_all/rep1779_201811#report_area_3 you will end up ill informed about the output spline details.

I have yet to see a single piece of evidence that the 160kW motor option in the ZE1 model is anything other than an EM57. Simply because the EM57 has a better designed rotor that consumes less rare earth magnets and high grade electrical steel seems to have lead some folks to the conclusion that it is an inferior motor. The major advantage of the EM61 is that it is a lot easier to mount to a conventional manual transmission. If you are using the oem single speed reducer in your project it is neither here nor there. If you are intending on fitting an EM57 to a manual transmission you can either add a spacer to avoid the cast inverter bridge or simply cut the bridge off as one guy has done on his Porsche 911 conversion.

Personally I think the optimal path to take with the power train is to do what Arlo1 has done and just fit the entire unit if that is possible. I wouldn't bother building my own power stage, a Opel Ampera/Chevy Volt inverter has two 110kW power stages and can be bought for next to nothing. The control board is easy to remove and you can retrofit the brain of your choosing and twining the power stages for a single motor has been done and proven by some guys in the Ukraine if you are after Arlo1 type power levels. Only problem seems to be shredding transmissions.

Yeah, don't know why I said lower Kv, Arber is right about different speeds/gear ratios I think. Either way, should work fine for DIY.

Nissan have definitely been flexible with how they rate the EM57, given your example and the fact that they advertised a 'power upgrade' in some Leaf models, which was actually just increasing the controller max amps limit slightly.

I'll cut the bridge off to get better clearance etc when it does go in the car. I've ordered a Fiat clutch plate to start making an adaptor.

Looking at the Chevy Volt inverter teardown, the DC cap, IGBT/drivers, and current sensors look promising, although I'm pretty hesitant about paralleling entirely separate IGBTs. They'd need a lot of work to ensure that the drivers played nicely together, and any issues with delay/dead-time/desat detection would be serious trouble.

That said, the Chevy inverter is about half the price of the leaf inverter on the UK scrap market... Almost worth it just for the DC cap.

Do you have a link to the Ukrainian guys' post?

TheEBikeNinja said:

Looking at the Chevy Volt inverter teardown, the DC cap, IGBT/drivers, and current sensors look promising, although I'm pretty hesitant about paralleling entirely separate IGBTs. They'd need a lot of work to ensure that the drivers played nicely together, and any issues with delay/dead-time/desat detection would be serious trouble.

That said, the Chevy inverter is about half the price of the leaf inverter on the UK scrap market... Almost worth it just for the DC cap.

Do you have a link to the Ukrainian guys' post?

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Well i think you can safely use paralelled IGBTs as long as you provide some sort of mixer for the current sensor inputs. On the Volt inverter Lebowski suggested to just couple them using resistors.
I think the most important condition here would be phase cables. You need to connect them back at the motor and paralell them to the power section. That way di/dt will dissipate inside wires and NOT flow back through transistor flyback diodes... not much anyways.
I have a proof of concept setup prepared here: https://github.com/arber333/Lebowski-dual-IGBT-control
I have some boards left for this design if you want to play with that.
But my car works just too good to reconfigure Leaf motor just yet. I will try to run outlander motor probably.
Here is that crazy Ukrainian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nF5oRZclFE&t=3s
If you watch carefully in the end he shows his setup and comments that motor does not heat up during quick bursts...

I never said the newer EM57 was better or worse. But rather because they shortened the rotor and stator its likely lower power peaks and because its refined it might be more efficient. So knowing that and not having any of the newer leaf motors to test with I chose to stick with the older EM61 as I have 4 of them at this point 2 for the dyno and 2 for the car.

As for a DIY level project. We are not selling Axiom parts only complete controllers. You will need to design your own control board.

Another option is I have a couple of the Kits I made 300+ hp with left. If someone wants one of them PM me and we can put some pricing together.

-Arlin

Arlo1 said:

I never said the newer EM57 was better or worse. But rather because they shortened the rotor and stator its likely lower power peaks and because its refined it might be more efficient. So knowing that and not having any of the newer leaf motors to test with I chose to stick with the older EM61 as I have 4 of them at this point 2 for the dyno and 2 for the car.

-Arlin

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The comment wasn't aimed at you, a few people elsewhere implying the EM57 is inferior. Do you have a reference for the the stator stack length reduction? The markline review is all over the place and not trust worthy in my view. They state that the EM57 stack length is variously 140mm and 142mm. Just a quick glance at the photo shows that the end caps are more than 1mm at each end which brings into question the accuracy of the statement. The figures they list for the spline dimensions are also off by a country mile. So out of those three figures only one might be correct and possibly none. It isn't clear to me from the ORNL review of the EM61 motor if the rotor stack measurement includes the end caps or not but they quote 151mm.

If I ever get around to replacing the bearings on my EM57 I will take a measurement of the rotor stack length minus the end caps. Has anybody here measured an EM61 rotor?

kiwifiat said:

Arlo1 said:

I never said the newer EM57 was better or worse. But rather because they shortened the rotor and stator its likely lower power peaks and because its refined it might be more efficient. So knowing that and not having any of the newer leaf motors to test with I chose to stick with the older EM61 as I have 4 of them at this point 2 for the dyno and 2 for the car.

-Arlin

Click to expand...

The comment wasn't aimed at you, a few people elsewhere implying the EM57 is inferior. Do you have a reference for the the stator stack length reduction? The markline review is all over the place and not trust worthy in my view. They state that the EM57 stack length is variously 140mm and 142mm. Just a quick glance at the photo shows that the end caps are more than 1mm at each end which brings into question the accuracy of the statement. The figures they list for the spline dimensions are also off by a country mile. So out of those three figures only one might be correct and possibly none. It isn't clear to me from the ORNL review of the EM61 motor if the rotor stack measurement includes the end caps or not but they quote 151mm.

If I ever get around to replacing the bearings on my EM57 I will take a measurement of the rotor stack length minus the end caps. Has anybody here measured an EM61 rotor?

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I will pot my REAR leaf motor for the CRX soon. I will measure it then. I think I measured it a couple years ago but don't know where I wrote down the numbers.

Arlo, on the leaf motor, they say it is good for 90mph. How many RPM are you spinning the leaf motor up to? They say 10K is about 90 mph, are you at all worried of the motor letting go at top speed? i see you have done up to 113 mph. Did you change the gearing? running larger tires?

Thanks, just wondering.

Eric

Hahah I am doing everything I can to get more top speed including spinning it to 15k rpm. I also have someone who can make me some gears to change the ratio.
I will do a destructive test on one of the rotors when we get into our new place. Which has 1600 sq feet of shop space with over 1000 sq feet of additional storage!

Arlo1 said:

Hahah I am doing everything I can to get more top speed including spinning it to 15k rpm. I also have someone who can make me some gears to change the ratio.
I will do a destructive test on one of the rotors when we get into our new place. Which has 1600 sq feet of shop space with over 1000 sq feet of additional storage!

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Well... you may investigate here: https://openinverter.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=32160#p32160
That guy floored his motor in neutral and managed to break the rotor and bearings at more than 20000rpm!!!
I managed to get up to 15000rpm at 180km/h and motor had much more to give. But since it is my prime mover i reined myself in .

arber333 said:

Arlo1 said:

Hahah I am doing everything I can to get more top speed including spinning it to 15k rpm. I also have someone who can make me some gears to change the ratio.
I will do a destructive test on one of the rotors when we get into our new place. Which has 1600 sq feet of shop space with over 1000 sq feet of additional storage!

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Well... you may investigate here: https://openinverter.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=32160#p32160
That guy floored his motor in neutral and managed to break the rotor and bearings at more than 20000rpm!!!
I managed to get up to 15000rpm at 180km/h and motor had much more to give. But since it is my prime mover i reined myself in .

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Hmm Thanks for the link. I bet it was not caused by the bearings at all. The VERY high centrifugal forces at 20k rpm likely killed it. But does he know for sure what number it failed at? Or is he just guessing at a RPM he thinks it hit?

Arlo1 said:

Hmm Thanks for the link. I bet it was not caused by the bearings at all. The VERY high centrifugal forces at 20k rpm likely killed it. But does he know for sure what number it failed at? Or is he just guessing at a RPM he thinks it hit?

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I am not sure he wasnt recording the event via openinverter wifi interface. He might have been recording his CAN bus line?
He did say he was testing new firmware revision at the time. Might be worth asking him.

arber333 said:

Arlo1 said:

Hmm Thanks for the link. I bet it was not caused by the bearings at all. The VERY high centrifugal forces at 20k rpm likely killed it. But does he know for sure what number it failed at? Or is he just guessing at a RPM he thinks it hit?

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I am not sure he wasnt recording the event via openinverter wifi interface. He might have been recording his CAN bus line?
He did say he was testing new firmware revision at the time. Might be worth asking him.

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I asked and 20k rpm is just a wild guess.

-Arlin

Arlo1 said:

I asked and 20k rpm is just a wild guess.

-Arlin

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Well at least he demonstrated motor can self destruct rather casually by freewheeling it into the blue. Damage looks like more centrifugal in nature different than bearing failure. We think rotor expanded under side load and magnets were pressed outwards.