New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

bagirafutar said:
Hi,

I own an Omnium cargo bike, with a 750w, 48V TSDZ2 mounted on it. I am thinking of selling it and getting a Riese und Müller Packster 80, with a Performance Line CX gen2 motor. I go uphill a lot.

I once had the opportunity to ride the Packster 80, but only for about 5 minutes. The Bosch drive seemed to work much more "flawlessly" if I can put it this way. Although it is only a 250/350W engine, it seemed to be much stronger, delivering it's power much better. When I stopped pedaling, the motor cut off almost instanteniously. The TSDZ2 takes a noticable amount of time for the chain to come to a stop after I stop pedaling. This makes changing gears on my IGH a hassle, because I am always waiting for the motor to come to a stop.

The TSDZ2 seems to have a lot of flex somewhere inside - either the crank axle itself, or the motor somehow, I don't know for sure.

On the TSDZ2 I regularly reach the motor's max. cadence, when I loose all support from the motor. It is very annoying, because with my current gearing, my max. speed is around 34-35 km/h, after this the motor cuts off. The Bosch has much more flexibility in this concern, as I can spin the cranks faster, and still get help from the motor.


So my question comes down to this: has anyone had the chance to properly compare these two mid-drives? Is it just me feeling that the Bosch system is a much better tuned system, and is a much better feeling to ride? (Edit: I am talking about the stock firmware for the TSDZ2. I am aware of casainho's opensource firmware, but I still have 2,5 years of warranty on my drive which I do not want to void by installing it. And it also wouldn't help the flex and the cadence-issue, for example.)

Thanks!

Zoltán
Click to expand...
Do you have the same expectations for that both products where one is much more expensive on the initial price as also on maintenance parts??
 
bagirafutar said:
On the TSDZ2 I regularly reach the motor's max. cadence, when I loose all support from the motor. It is very annoying, because with my current gearing, my max. speed is around 34-35 km/h, after this the motor cuts off. The Bosch has much more flexibility in this concern, as I can spin the cranks faster, and still get help from the motor.
Click to expand...

From my limited 50 or so miles of testing a freshly built TSDZ2 conversion on a '99 Trek 6000 hardtail 26" mountain bike, it works best with a fairly tall gear, and around 60 cadence. My brother's bike originally had a 42-xx-yy triple and a 11-30 8-speed rear. I installed it with the default 42T, and found my self almost always in the 42:11 top gear, which is doing 28mph/45km at 90 cadence where the TSDZ2 kicks out. It seemed to give me the best torque feel on the flats in PAS 3, at around 60 cadence, I was pedalling lightly going 20+ MPH on a 26" mountain bike. going up the hill I live on thats +100m in about 1km, and has stretches of 6-8%, I was maintaining 10-15 MPH (16-24 km/h) pedalling lightly around a 60 cadence with a 42:15 or 42:17 gear (6th or 5th gear, where 8th is high) at PAS 3. PAS 4 doesn't seem to put out any more power, but its more sensitive to your pedal torque, so the power comes on stronger when you're pedalling lightly.

My next build is a 700c hybrid, it has a 13-26 8-speed freewheel, and I'm thinking of using a 52T front ring. I'm currently running a 46-36-26 on that bike. 52:13 is 4:1 while 42:11 is 3.8:1... my hybrid with 700x32 is much lighter and naturally goes faster than my brothers 26" mountain bike with its 1.95" wide knobbies.

instead of the typical 13s 5p Shark packs, I am going to get a 13s 3p 3000mAH pack, 48V 9AH, 432 WH, to save weight. I think that will give me a 40-50 mile range of riding fast but light.

IMG_6046-X3.jpg
 
Anyone here had any success running the TSDZ2 without an LCD ? I have been trying but no luck as yet.
Below is my post from another chapter of endless.

Need some help.
I flashed the firmware in my new motor today and made necessary settings using marcoqs java configurator. I am waiting on my SW102 and have read that you can power the motor by joining white to green. I gave the 8 pin plug from the motor the chop and joined the white and green but no power. It is a new 48v motor from pswpower has 8 pin plug - female hole with 8 males pins in it. My battery is 52v thus the need to change the settings. Should what I have done worked ?

I read the motor controller can be enabled by simple connect green wire to white wire and this way there is no need to use LCD here https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbuck ... oller.html So joinging Green P+ battery voltage to White Vin / ground should enable the motor without the LCD, however with information that gatorsean just posted it looks like I should be joining blue to red ?
Am on the right track ?

Did some testing today and found gatorseans information was correct for my motor however connecting red to blue will not power the motor. I tried connecting red, blue and black to the corresponding wires on the LCD and although the LCD would turn on still no power from the motor. I had to connect the RX and TX wires to the lcd brown and yellow wires before the motor would run and it seemed glitchy but have more to do another time.
 
you're assuming the color code is the same. I'd be confirming the pins inside the motor, and at the connector before I'd be making any assumptions about color.
 
danielson said:
I read the motor controller can be enabled by simple connect green wire to white wire and this way there is no need to use LCD here https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbuck ... oller.html So joinging Green P+ battery voltage to White Vin / ground should enable the motor without the LCD, however with information that gatorsean just posted it looks like I should be joining blue to red ?
Am on the right track ?
Click to expand...
Follow the wiki only because it is mainly updated. That page you link, it was written by me more than 1 year ago.
 
LeftCoastNurd said:
bagirafutar said:
On the TSDZ2 I regularly reach the motor's max. cadence, when I loose all support from the motor. It is very annoying, because with my current gearing, my max. speed is around 34-35 km/h, after this the motor cuts off. The Bosch has much more flexibility in this concern, as I can spin the cranks faster, and still get help from the motor.
Click to expand...

From my limited 50 or so miles of testing a freshly built TSDZ2 conversion on a '99 Trek 6000 hardtail 26" mountain bike, it works best with a fairly tall gear, and around 60 cadence. My brother's bike originally had a 42-xx-yy triple and a 11-30 8-speed rear. I installed it with the default 42T, and found my self almost always in the 42:11 top gear, which is doing 28mph/45km at 90 cadence where the TSDZ2 kicks out. It seemed to give me the best torque feel on the flats in PAS 3, at around 60 cadence, I was pedalling lightly going 20+ MPH on a 26" mountain bike. going up the hill I live on thats +100m in about 1km, and has stretches of 6-8%, I was maintaining 10-15 MPH (16-24 km/h) pedalling lightly around a 60 cadence with a 42:15 or 42:17 gear (6th or 5th gear, where 8th is high) at PAS 3. PAS 4 doesn't seem to put out any more power, but its more sensitive to your pedal torque, so the power comes on stronger when you're pedalling lightly.

My next build is a 700c hybrid, it has a 13-26 8-speed freewheel, and I'm thinking of using a 52T front ring. I'm currently running a 46-36-26 on that bike. 52:13 is 4:1 while 42:11 is 3.8:1... my hybrid with 700x32 is much lighter and naturally goes faster than my brothers 26" mountain bike with its 1.95" wide knobbies.

instead of the typical 13s 5p Shark packs, I am going to get a 13s 3p 3000mAH pack, 48V 9AH, 432 WH, to save weight. I think that will give me a 40-50 mile range of riding fast but light.

IMG_6046-X3.jpg
Click to expand...

Thank you for your experiences. Yes, 60 cadence is very low for me.
 
Yes the TSDZ2 engine is a low cadence motor designed for relatively inexperienced road bikers or people who want to commute using low cadence and high gearing. It is designed for a specific market at a budget price and successfully sold into that market probably in the millions. It is for all intents and purposes in that market, a real gem.

Now as very experienced riders wanting fast cadences up around the 90 mark wanting to fit an after market bolt on motor are few and far between, the manufacturer has to ask whether he sells a few million at a budget price or very few at a very high price specifically designed for fast cadence. In my opinion as standard, it is not suitable for experienced riders who normally want a fast cadence without making a few mods. If you are not prepared to mod the motor then look elsewhere if you want a fast cadence.

But you can transform the motor into a 90 plus cadence little gem on a budget price with one basic move, up the voltage. You can do that relatively easily by a simple mod to the standard code of the 36 volt unit and change the battery ( or add cells to your existing battery ) to 48 Volt. That one change will bring a 36volt engine right up inline with the early Bosch motors ( sorry I have not ridden one of the later engines ).

If you want to take that modifying just a little tad further and fit the latest V20 of the Free software available and fit one of the alternative LCD screens, you can take the flexibility of that motor to that of or better than the Bosch. What other commercial motors out there can you set all the assist levels in 3 different modes ( cadence, torque and power ) plus have the ability to engage an EMtb mode which can be tuned to your requirements as well as have 9 levels of walk mode and to just throw in what battery voltage, watts, max power and just to get the roadies happy, a cruise mode.

For its price it is a very good motor, but standard its designed for low cadence and torque and to be sold in vast numbers to a specific market.
 
casainho said:
danielson said:
I read the motor controller can be enabled by simple connect green wire to white wire and this way there is no need to use LCD here https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbuck ... oller.html So joinging Green P+ battery voltage to White Vin / ground should enable the motor without the LCD, however with information that gatorsean just posted it looks like I should be joining blue to red ?
Am on the right track ?
Click to expand...
Follow the wiki only because it is mainly updated. That page you link, it was written by me more than 1 year ago.
Click to expand...

Did some testing today and found gatorseans information was correct for my motor however connecting red to blue will not power the motor. I tried connecting red, blue and black to the corresponding wires on the LCD and although the LCD would turn on still no power from the motor. I had to connect the RX and TX wires to the lcd (brown and yellow) wires before the motor would run and it seemed glitchy but have more to do another time.
 
bagirafutar said:
Hi,

I own an Omnium cargo bike, with a 750w, 48V TSDZ2 mounted on it. I am thinking of selling it and getting a Riese und Müller Packster 80, with a Performance Line CX gen2 motor. I go uphill a lot.

I once had the opportunity to ride the Packster 80, but only for about 5 minutes. The Bosch drive seemed to work much more "flawlessly" if I can put it this way. Although it is only a 250/350W engine, it seemed to be much stronger, delivering it's power much better. When I stopped pedaling, the motor cut off almost instanteniously. The TSDZ2 takes a noticable amount of time for the chain to come to a stop after I stop pedaling. This makes changing gears on my IGH a hassle, because I am always waiting for the motor to come to a stop.

The TSDZ2 seems to have a lot of flex somewhere inside - either the crank axle itself, or the motor somehow, I don't know for sure.

On the TSDZ2 I regularly reach the motor's max. cadence, when I loose all support from the motor. It is very annoying, because with my current gearing, my max. speed is around 34-35 km/h, after this the motor cuts off. The Bosch has much more flexibility in this concern, as I can spin the cranks faster, and still get help from the motor.


So my question comes down to this: has anyone had the chance to properly compare these two mid-drives? Is it just me feeling that the Bosch system is a much better tuned system, and is a much better feeling to ride? (Edit: I am talking about the stock firmware for the TSDZ2. I am aware of casainho's opensource firmware, but I still have 2,5 years of warranty on my drive which I do not want to void by installing it. And it also wouldn't help the flex and the cadence-issue, for example.)

Thanks!

Zoltán
Click to expand...
I can't compare with a bosch but with a brose of the specialized turbo levo. With the original firmware it is simply an unequal comparison. Brose is better in everything. With the changed firmware the two bikes are comparable, the engine character remains different but the performance in the system is similar. If you don't want to change the firmware you will always be very limited. However, the tsdz2 is not an engine suitable for a cargo bike for hardware reasons. First, all the weight passes through a free wheel bearing that is undersized and periodically breaks. It costs very few euros or dollars but it can be a nuisance. Even the blue primary gear is subject to breakdowns under considerable effort.If you need a reliable cargo bike it is best to change engines. This is my opinion.
 
Waynemarlow said:
Yes the TSDZ2 engine is a low cadence motor designed for relatively inexperienced road bikers or people who want to commute using low cadence and high gearing. It is designed for a specific market at a budget price and successfully sold into that market probably in the millions. It is for all intents and purposes in that market, a real gem.

Now as very experienced riders wanting fast cadences up around the 90 mark wanting to fit an after market bolt on motor are few and far between, the manufacturer has to ask whether he sells a few million at a budget price or very few at a very high price specifically designed for fast cadence. In my opinion as standard, it is not suitable for experienced riders who normally want a fast cadence without making a few mods. If you are not prepared to mod the motor then look elsewhere if you want a fast cadence.

But you can transform the motor into a 90 plus cadence little gem on a budget price with one basic move, up the voltage. You can do that relatively easily by a simple mod to the standard code of the 36 volt unit and change the battery ( or add cells to your existing battery ) to 48 Volt. That one change will bring a 36volt engine right up inline with the early Bosch motors ( sorry I have not ridden one of the later engines ).

If you want to take that modifying just a little tad further and fit the latest V20 of the Free software available and fit one of the alternative LCD screens, you can take the flexibility of that motor to that of or better than the Bosch. What other commercial motors out there can you set all the assist levels in 3 different modes ( cadence, torque and power ) plus have the ability to engage an EMtb mode which can be tuned to your requirements as well as have 9 levels of walk mode and to just throw in what battery voltage, watts, max power and just to get the roadies happy, a cruise mode.

For its price it is a very good motor, but standard its designed for low cadence and torque and to be sold in vast numbers to a specific market.
Click to expand...

Hi,

Thank you, this does seem to confirm my theory.
 
andrea_104kg said:
bagirafutar said:
Hi,

I own an Omnium cargo bike, with a 750w, 48V TSDZ2 mounted on it. I am thinking of selling it and getting a Riese und Müller Packster 80, with a Performance Line CX gen2 motor. I go uphill a lot.

I once had the opportunity to ride the Packster 80, but only for about 5 minutes. The Bosch drive seemed to work much more "flawlessly" if I can put it this way. Although it is only a 250/350W engine, it seemed to be much stronger, delivering it's power much better. When I stopped pedaling, the motor cut off almost instanteniously. The TSDZ2 takes a noticable amount of time for the chain to come to a stop after I stop pedaling. This makes changing gears on my IGH a hassle, because I am always waiting for the motor to come to a stop.

The TSDZ2 seems to have a lot of flex somewhere inside - either the crank axle itself, or the motor somehow, I don't know for sure.

On the TSDZ2 I regularly reach the motor's max. cadence, when I loose all support from the motor. It is very annoying, because with my current gearing, my max. speed is around 34-35 km/h, after this the motor cuts off. The Bosch has much more flexibility in this concern, as I can spin the cranks faster, and still get help from the motor.


So my question comes down to this: has anyone had the chance to properly compare these two mid-drives? Is it just me feeling that the Bosch system is a much better tuned system, and is a much better feeling to ride? (Edit: I am talking about the stock firmware for the TSDZ2. I am aware of casainho's opensource firmware, but I still have 2,5 years of warranty on my drive which I do not want to void by installing it. And it also wouldn't help the flex and the cadence-issue, for example.)

Thanks!

Zoltán
Click to expand...
I can't compare with a bosch but with a brose of the specialized turbo levo. With the original firmware it is simply an unequal comparison. Brose is better in everything. With the changed firmware the two bikes are comparable, the engine character remains different but the performance in the system is similar. If you don't want to change the firmware you will always be very limited. However, the tsdz2 is not an engine suitable for a cargo bike for hardware reasons. First, all the weight passes through a free wheel bearing that is undersized and periodically breaks. It costs very few euros or dollars but it can be a nuisance. Even the blue primary gear is subject to breakdowns under considerable effort.If you need a reliable cargo bike it is best to change engines. This is my opinion.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing the Brose is an equally good comparison, so thanks for writing down your thoughts.

FYI: I've done about 1900 kilometers so far with the TSDZ2 on this cargo bike, and don't have any problems, although I did use it on hills quite a lot. Probably this is also because of my fairly high cadence which puts less stress on the blue gear for example.
 
bagirafutar said:
andrea_104kg said:
I can't compare with a bosch but with a brose of the specialized turbo levo. With the original firmware it is simply an unequal comparison. Brose is better in everything. With the changed firmware the two bikes are comparable, the engine character remains different but the performance in the system is similar. If you don't want to change the firmware you will always be very limited. However, the tsdz2 is not an engine suitable for a cargo bike for hardware reasons. First, all the weight passes through a free wheel bearing that is undersized and periodically breaks. It costs very few euros or dollars but it can be a nuisance. Even the blue primary gear is subject to breakdowns under considerable effort.If you need a reliable cargo bike it is best to change engines. This is my opinion.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing the Brose is an equally good comparison, so thanks for writing down your thoughts.

FYI: I've done about 1900 kilometers so far with the TSDZ2 on this cargo bike, and don't have any problems, although I did use it on hills quite a lot. Probably this is also because of my fairly high cadence which puts less stress on the blue gear for example.
Click to expand...

I have done 2500KM on my cargo bike with no issues. The open source firmware (OSF) provides far more power at higher cadence, better soft start, and better options on how to assist you. With the default current ramp settings in the OSF the blue gear is fine.

Yes there is some flex in the TSDZ2 ... but compared to my cargo bike frame it is nothing :wink: Riding my cargo bike is like riding a longboard :lol:
 
danielson said:
casainho said:
danielson said:
I read the motor controller can be enabled by simple connect green wire to white wire and this way there is no need to use LCD here https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbuck ... oller.html So joinging Green P+ battery voltage to White Vin / ground should enable the motor without the LCD, however with information that gatorsean just posted it looks like I should be joining blue to red ?
Am on the right track ?
Click to expand...
Follow the wiki only because it is mainly updated. That page you link, it was written by me more than 1 year ago.
Click to expand...

Did some testing today and found gatorseans information was correct for my motor however connecting red to blue will not power the motor. I tried connecting red, blue and black to the corresponding wires on the LCD and although the LCD would turn on still no power from the motor. I had to connect the RX and TX wires to the lcd (brown and yellow) wires before the motor would run and it seemed glitchy but have more to do another time.
Click to expand...

I ended up installing standard 52v firmware and was able to get it to work by connecting blue to red. The power seemed around level 3 but default 25km speed limit was in place. I tried connecting the LCD again and adjusting the speed then removing the LCD but the result was the same. I ended up just putting the VLCD5 on so I can adjust settings.
 
Can anyone please tell me what the third hole is for in the black mounting bracket? It's unused in all the pics I've seen.

 
famichiki said:
Can anyone please tell me what the third hole is for in the black mounting bracket? It's unused in all the pics I've seen.

mystery-hole.png
Click to expand...
For example you can put wires through that hole.
 
SW102 display, flash firmware by Bluetooth only

We have very good news, on next days we will get the SW102 display to work by flashing firmware with Bluetooth only!! SW102 is a modern display and I had seen many ebikes coming to the market equipped with it, because it is an OEM display and we can find it with different brand names as EggRider -- see pictures bellow.

Since SW102 price is low, is small, robust and modern, I think it will be even more popular in next years as the ebike market will keep growing. I think we did a great achievement to have OpenSource firmware for SW102, this way means everyone can use it to support his specific ebike motor, I mean not only DIY users but even small brands and shops. There is a lot of potential, like support other motor controllers as the popular KT, custom mobile apps, integration with apps like Strava, BMS with Bluetooth, external Bluetooth sensors, etc.

About the TSDZ2, as soon we have it flashing the firmware by Bluetooth only, it will be the recommend display for TSDZ2 because will be the quicker and easier way to have our OpenSource firmware running, also keeping the display intact and maintain the water prof. I will then archive the KT-LCD3 documentation pages.

This is possible thanks to the work of geeksville developer (with also contributions of other developers), here is his today message:

I can now install our app on devices without opening the case. I've also modified our app so that with the appropriate button press the user has a way to force the bootloader to wait for updates.

The only remaining item is to change the flash writing, which I'll do tomorrow.
Click to expand...





 
casainho said:
SW102 display, flash firmware by Bluetooth only

We have very good news, on next days we will get the SW102 display to work by flashing firmware with Bluetooth only!! SW102 is a modern display and I had seen many ebikes coming to the market equipped with it, because it is an OEM display and we can find it with different brand names as EggRider -- see pictures bellow.
Click to expand...
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
 
casainho said:
Since SW102 price is low, is small, robust and modern, I think it will be even more popular in next years as the ebike market will keep growing. I think we did a great achievement to have OpenSource firmware for SW102, this way means everyone can use it to support his specific ebike motor, I mean not only DIY users but even small brands and shops. There is a lot of potential, like support other motor controllers as the popular KT, custom mobile apps, integration with apps like Strava, BMS with Bluetooth, external Bluetooth sensors, etc.
Click to expand...

And there is the possibility to integrate the Bluetooth BMS, here is a video about this BMS:

[youtube]QQW3uuzNnkg[/youtube]

More info about this BMS: https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbucket.io/development/Smart_BMS_with_bluetooth.html

57-1.png


57-2.png
 
Waynemarlow said:
Can anyone recommend a way of getting my standard 42 tooth front sprocket down to say a 36 tooth and still get a reasonable chain line ?
Click to expand...

There's the (costly) future-bike.it 30T NW chainring :
https://www.electrifybike.com/store/p66/30T_Narrow%2FWide_Chainring_for_TSDZ2.html#/
 
casainho said:
About the TSDZ2, as soon we have it flashing the firmware by Bluetooth only, it will be the recommend display for TSDZ2 because will be the quicker and easier way to have our OpenSource firmware running, also keeping the display intact and maintain the water prof. I will then archive the KT-LCD3 documentation pages.
Click to expand...

Do you even recommend the SW102 over the 850C display ?
I have read this page : https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-firmware/TSDZ2_wiki/wiki/Displays-comparison
The 850C features a clock, large color display and usb charger and the SW102 is bluetooth but I'm not sure which is the most "future proof", in terms of memory capabilities, etc.
 
casainho said:
manoz said:
So today while out for a ride, about to set off at a traffic light I heard a snap and my leg slipped. The driveside crank had sheared clean off. Only done about 1200 miles on the motor. This happened to anyone else? What are the chances of claiming a warranty replacement? I bought it off the ebird store on aliexpress.

20191022-230548.jpg
Click to expand...

Hi Manoz, all,


I've just had the same problem: axel snapped while starting from traffic light. This is terrible/dangerous. What if one were zipping thru' traffic, it could be fatal.

Anyway, would love to know if this is a common problem. Not sure if I'm happy with just replacing the axel/torque-sensor with another of similar dubious quality.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
 
casainho said:
SW102 display, flash firmware by Bluetooth only

We have very good news, on next days we will get the SW102 display to work by flashing firmware with Bluetooth only!!

Great news!
Click to expand...
 
Hello,
first post here. I'm currently researching the TSDZ2 motor to install on an Ice Adventure HD trike. I have a spare boom that I'm going to use for the motor. I want to make it easy to swap from the powered boom to the non powered boom. So to do this I'm going to mount the display on the boom. I will have to get or make some short wire harness for this. On the trike I will have to have the harness to the battery, brake switch and the speed sensor. The other part to make the swap simple is I have a Rohloff hub and a single chain ring upfront so easy mechanically to swap the booms.
My question is, does anyone make a wireless remote that can control the boost level or turn it on and off? The boom is not out of reach but it would be nice to have button control at my hand if I can. I saw the news on the SW102 and that would be nice but I would like a full display to show more info also.
I'm not looking for speed with my motor just assist to keep up with my fit wife on her bike. Around 13-16mph max. So I'm looking at the 500 watt 48V setup.
Any help or advice would be great.

Brandon
 
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