TSDZ2 mid drive with 860C, 850C or SW102 displays only -- Flexible OpenSource firmware (Casainho code only)

Dirkro · Nov 15, 2019

Dirkro said:
buba said:

Dirkro said:

buba said:

Can confirm that there is a bug with the cadence displayed when I installed the 0.20.0 Beta 1 from the official project page. But it seems that the bug is not present on the 0.20.0 Beta 1 that is on my drive... Will have to confirm this by testing some more.

Click to expand...

I installed 0.20Beta1 Yesterday from Github
Did cadence sensor calibration / advance mode during setup,
My cadence is shown OK, a little bit flickering up and down ( +/- 2)

Click to expand...

So it seems that the cadence is okay for you using the official firmware version. Let me know if you get any problems!

Dirkro said:

Was working fine on first test drive, working very smooth and nice!
Was a little confused by the changed Street mode handling.

Click to expand...

Glad to hear! I hope you quickly got used to it!

Dirkro said:

One question:
I used standard settings for assistance. But swiched on MTB Mode.
Is the MTB Mode something on top of the other assistance modes or working only seperatly.
If on top , which kind of assistance is recomended to cooperate with this?

Click to expand...

E-MTB Mode is a standalone riding mode and is isolated from the other modes. You can use it whenever you need a very responsive mode with access to the entire power range in one single mode.

There are no recommendation per se, just try it out and configure so it suits your riding style

Click to expand...

Sorry, then I have some questions with the modes:
Should I only enable one mode in the configuration?
If so, what will happen if I will enable two different modes?
If not, How to change from mainscreen? I did not find the method to swich!
Regarding MTB Mode: just to ned to put on the sensitiveness. Nothing to change with the assistance butons right?

I am so curious to get it running!

Found it

For people who dont find: It is behind the highest support mode (9 in standard config)

For me 9-10 is the best value for E-MTB sensivity.

buba · Nov 15, 2019

Dirkro said:
buba said:

E-MTB Mode is a standalone riding mode and is isolated from the other modes. You can use it whenever you need a very responsive mode with access to the entire power range in one single mode.

There are no recommendation per se, just try it out and configure so it suits your riding style

Click to expand...

Sorry, then I have some questions with the modes:
Should I only enable one mode in the configuration?
If so, what will happen if I will enable two different modes?

No problem at all!

You can only enable one mode in the configuration menu. If you try to enable two modes it will disable the other one. E-MTB is the exception to this rule as it is possible to have it enabled together with any other riding mode.

Here are the main modes:

- Power Assist

- Torque Assist

- Cadence Assist

You can configure up to nine different assist levels on each and every riding mode listed above.

You will find E-MTB after your last assist level if it is enabled.

Example: If you have five assist levels, E-MTB will be on the sixth assist level.

Dirkro said:
If not, How to change from mainscreen? I did not find the method to swich!

You can not switch between the three main riding modes from the main screen.

Dirkro said:
Regarding MTB Mode: just to ned to put on the sensitiveness. Nothing to change with the assistance butons right?

I am so curious to get it running!

Correct! Just set the sensitivity and when you see the "E" you are in E-MTB mode.

Good luck!

buba · Nov 15, 2019

Dirkro said:
Found it
For people who dont find: It is behind the highest support mode (9 in standard config)

For me 9-10 is the best value for E-MTB sensivity.

buba · Nov 15, 2019

Waynemarlow said:
Dirkro said:

Sorry, then I have some questions with the modes:
Should I only enable one mode in the configuration?
If so, what will happen if I will enable two different modes?
If not, How to change from mainscreen? I did not find the method to swich!
Regarding MTB Mode: just to ned to put on the sensitiveness. Nothing to change with the assistance butons right?

Click to expand...

If you set 1 on any mode in the setup, the unit will put 0 in the other two modes ie as soon as you pick one of the modes the others are disabled.

Emtb is effectively a max 10th level, if you set enable ( 1) in the setup field for EMtb, you get the number of levels you have set + 1

Emtb is enable to range from 0 Watts to max Watts on the one setting. I've found best to set up by raising /lowering the sensitivity until with maximum pedal input you get maximum motor watts. If you think you are easily getting max watts ( you will have set the max amps in the setup initially amps x volts = watts ) then lower your sensitivity. Its a bit trial and error but doesn't take long. I've found Emtb best when riding on your own and you just want an easy blast. Emtb is also good if you want to limit max power, just keep lowering the sensitivity until you reach max watts with max input from yourself to a level which is comfortable to ride with.

buba · Nov 15, 2019

Waynemarlow said:
buba said:

I have a really good 52 V battery (maintains high nominal voltage for a long time) with a 52 teeth crank on a 36 V motor.

Cheers!

Click to expand...

Buba, have you tried a 48V battery in comparison with your 52V as regards to cadence levels. My 48V set on standard numbers will peak out at about 90 - 95rpm before its starts to back the motor off. Is the 52Volt worth the extra batteries ( do you get any cadence speed gains ) or can I change the motor numbers in the advance setting to compensate.

Thanks for all your work.

Yes, I have tried everything from low 20s to high 50s in voltage. I highly recommend that you invest in voltage with the TSDZ2. The higher the better. There are no drawbacks except possible a higher purchase price.

If you already have a 48 V battery I would not recommend upgrading to a new battery. But when it is time to buy a new battery I do recommend you pick a 52 V battery.

You do get some extra cadence with a 52 V but it would be wise to install a 52 T chainring as well. A larger chainring will improve the gear ratio. The 52 V battery together with a 52 T chainring is a noticeable difference and is overall better for any bike setup.

Changing the advance number will have limited effect and can cause losses in efficiency. So if you need more assistance at speed I recommend a 52 V battery and a 52 T chainring.

In the future there will be some motor updates that will improve the assistance at high cadence levels. But the efficiency will suffer slightly whenever the motor rotates faster than nominal.

Thank you, Waynemarlow!

EDIT: Also, the 36 V motor is king!

buba · Nov 15, 2019

Snoopz said:
buba said:

There is no difference between the 250/350/500/750 W versions of the TSDZ2. The only difference in the hardware is what type of motor you might have: 36 or 48 V. The controller is the same for all versions.

Click to expand...

How can't there be a difference in 250/350/500 and 750w? That statement contradicts itself. Would be like saying there isn't a difference between a kawasaki ninja with 200ps and a Honda with 50. In terms of raw power output.

"There is no difference between the 250/350/500/750 W versions of the TSDZ2."

Again, when you are looking to buy a TSDZ2 and see that they are selling different versions with different wattages there is no difference in the hardware. The only difference in the hardware is the type of motor you choose: which is either a 36 or 48 V motor.

The power can be calculated from your maximum amperage multiplied with the voltage at that amperage.

When buying a kawasaki ninja with 200 horsepower you get an engine rated for 200 horsepower. When buying the TSDZ2 you can choose between several "versions" but they have the same hardware. The max amperage is limited to around 16 A which gets you around 750 W with a nominal 48 V battery.

Cheers,

mctubster · Nov 15, 2019

buba said:
Snoopz said:

buba said:

There is no difference between the 250/350/500/750 W versions of the TSDZ2. The only difference in the hardware is what type of motor you might have: 36 or 48 V. The controller is the same for all versions.

Click to expand...

How can't there be a difference in 250/350/500 and 750w? That statement contradicts itself. Would be like saying there isn't a difference between a kawasaki ninja with 200ps and a Honda with 50. In terms of raw power output.

Click to expand...

"There is no difference between the 250/350/500/750 W versions of the TSDZ2."

Again, when you are looking to buy a TSDZ2 and see that they are selling different versions with different wattages there is no difference in the hardware. The only difference in the hardware is the type of motor you choose: which is either a 36 or 48 V motor.

The power can be calculated from your maximum amperage multiplied with the voltage at that amperage.

When buying a kawasaki ninja with 200 horsepower you get an engine rated for 200 horsepower. When buying the TSDZ2 you can choose between several "versions" but they have the same hardware. The max amperage is limited to around 16 A which gets you around 750 W with a nominal 48 V battery.

Cheers,

To expand on Buba's comment from a different perspective. A brushless DC motor (BLDC) is only limited in its power output by current / thermal limitations. Because a BLDC motor is controlled by a microcontroller the maximum power output is software defined, not hardware defined.

There is a hardcoded software limit in the code of 16A, giving the max power rating of 750W. If a motor is being sold with a lower power rating, then the current has been hardcoded to a lower level. The hardware remains the same.

The Open Source Firmware allows to you customize the max power output in the config menu, so you can buy a "250W" motor and turn it into a "750W" motor.

casainho · Nov 17, 2019

I am now working to make graphs with nice color transitions from regular value to
warning (yellow) and error (red) zones. I wish later I can do the same for the numeric fields, where the numbers are now white only but they could transition to yellow and after to red, so user can understand if is hitting the limit of the motor, on the various system variables.

And later, let user configure this zones values limits.

Previous color transitions:

New color soft transitions:

maximusdm · Nov 18, 2019

buba said:
Thank you!

I have a really good 52 V battery (maintains high nominal voltage for a long time) with a 52 teeth crank on a 36 V motor. Custom made bike with minimal resistance and really good tires. Using E-MTB exclusively as it does work well with my torque sensor. Depending on gearing, battery, system and bike setup you should be able to get above 50 kph or 31 mph.

Cheers!

It seems you got the full options version

).

My bike is Mtb 14kg+ with no motor. I use city tires Schwalbe Energizer+ 47-622 on my 29er.
I use 48v battery in 48v motor with standard 42 chain ring and high cadence mode. So ratio 42 X 11.

How much power are you getting from the motor at 45kph + ?

Thanks,
Max.

SuperSl0w · Nov 18, 2019

Hi guys, probably, my answers are here in this tread, but i'm a new guy when it's about the TSDZ2 motor. And this tread is a bit overwhelming :mrgreen:

My goal: 48v /52v batteryTSDZ2 with the custom firmware & Bafang 850C display.

1) I have this T232RL 3.3V 5.5V FTDI USB to TTL Serial Adapter, is this the correct one to flash the 850C display firmware?
And instead of using a step up converter, it's also possible to use 3x12v in serie battery's right?

Pic of my TTL serial adapter:
https://i.imgur.com/ooIsfmQ.png
Support 3.3V, 5V
chipset FT232RL
USB power has over current protection, using 500MA self-restore fuse
RXD/TXD transceiver communication indicator
Pin definition: DTR,RXD,TX,VCC,CTS,GND
Pitch:2.54mm
Module size:36mm(length)*17.5mm(width)
Driver download address:

2) Is this 100% the correct version? it's 48v / 52v battery with brake sensors:
http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2018-4c-h1fm

3) For flashing theTSDZ2 motor firmware, can i just buy a STLinkV2 on Aliexpress? This one for example?
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2022854051.html

Waynemarlow · Nov 19, 2019

Guys, there's a very good phone app called Blevo which is already set up with virtually everything we would ever want, wouldnt it be just easier all round if we enable a blue tooth mounted on the 8 pin connector with the TSDZ2 and use the already set up Blevo as our display ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWDJzwaN7vw

Rider2000 · Nov 19, 2019

Hi guys,

it is really nice to read the progress with the TSDZ2 programming. Especially the 850C support is great.

My question is: Is it also working with the new APT 860C Display ?

This would be really great.

obcd · Nov 19, 2019

imho, using a smartphone as ebike display is not an ideal solution.
First of all, most smartphones are hard to read in direct sunlight.
Next, most aren't waterproof, so you need a way to install them waterproof on the bike.
They don't like and aren't designed to have the display turned on all the time. So you almost need a charger port to charge them during the ride or your phone battery will drain real fast.
Most people don't need all the fancy features. You don't need GPS to commute from home to work (you usually know the road).
So basically, step on the bike, turn it on and start is what most people want. Even a removable display has it's pro's and con's. You have to remove it every stop and reinstall it if you move on. If you don't do it, it will easier get stolen as it's easy to remove.
It's great to have all the adjustable settings, but I assume once you found those that work for you, you wan't change them very often anymore. You might be interested to analyse your ride once in a while, but I assume you don't analyse every ride.
If you intend to remove the display completely, you will need a switch to turn your system on and you will need a step down converter to feed your bluetooth module with 5V or 3V3. You will also need a watertight case for that bluetooth module and the step down.
I am not against bluetooth and using your android phone, but it doesn't seem logic to adjust the motor it's protocol to communicate with a closed source app. If the app would be foss like the motor firmware and the other displays their firmware, it would still be somehow understandable. If you really would like to use Blevo, nothing is stopping you from modding the firmware to make it compatible. That's the beauty of open source firmware.

casainho · Nov 19, 2019

obcd said:
imho, using a smartphone as ebike display is not an ideal solution.
First of all, most smartphones are hard to read in direct sunlight.
Next, most aren't waterproof, so you need a way to install them waterproof on the bike.
They don't like and aren't designed to have the display turned on all the time. So you almost need a charger port to charge them during the ride or your phone battery will drain real fast.
Most people don't need all the fancy features. You don't need GPS to commute from home to work (you usually know the road).
So basically, step on the bike, turn it on and start is what most people want. Even a removable display has it's pro's and con's. You have to remove it every stop and reinstall it if you move on. If you don't do it, it will easier get stolen as it's easy to remove.
It's great to have all the adjustable settings, but I assume once you found those that work for you, you wan't change them very often anymore. You might be interested to analyse your ride once in a while, but I assume you don't analyse every ride.
If you intend to remove the display completely, you will need a switch to turn your system on and you will need a step down converter to feed your bluetooth module with 5V or 3V3. You will also need a watertight case for that bluetooth module and the step down.
I am not against bluetooth and using your android phone, but it doesn't seem logic to adjust the motor it's protocol to communicate with a closed source app. If the app would be foss like the motor firmware and the other displays their firmware, it would still be somehow understandable. If you really would like to use Blevo, nothing is stopping you from modding the firmware to make it compatible. That's the beauty of open source firmware.

That would be a good idea. I use a cheap and small Android phone with this software that is very feature complete, no ads, free and Open Source.
For my daily usage I don't it but on some weekends I got to mountains to MTB events or simple family trips. I usually have the GPX file or I previously draw on the Google Earth the path we will take and then I use that software to follow that route.

[youtube]lpBjLXF65AM[/youtube]

For TSDZ2 and SW102, we need to find developers interested to make the app. Maybe just use that software I use, since it is OpenSource and create a top layer showing the TSDZ2 data, etc.

obcd · Nov 19, 2019

Does the SW102 sees it's bluetooth as an additional serial port? (I haven't studied it's code yet) Just curious if it would be possible to connect a cheap bluetooth module like the HC05 to the tsdz2 - 850C as well. I assume, to pass parameters to the android, it shouldn't be much of an issue. Controlling the motor settings from the android is a different situation.

casainho · Nov 19, 2019

obcd said:
Does the SW102 sees it's bluetooth as an additional serial port? (I haven't studied it's code yet) Just curious if it would be possible to connect a cheap bluetooth module like the HC05 to the tsdz2 - 850C as well. I assume, to pass parameters to the android, it shouldn't be much of an issue. Controlling the motor settings from the android is a different situation.

SW102 is very flexible in terms of Bluetooth, you can create many Bluetooth profiles like a serial port, heart rate monitor, candence, power, sensors that apps like Strava can connect.

SW102 is small and flexible, I think much better than using only a serial port Bluetooth module.

eyebyesickle · Nov 19, 2019

Rider2000 said:
Hi guys,

it is really nice to read the progress with the TSDZ2 programming. Especially the 850C support is great.

My question is: Is it also working with the new APT 860C Display ?

This would be really great.

I think I just answered you who asked this in the other thread, but for everyone's reference here:

I'm waiting on some 860c samples, and getting the code modifications needed for the OSF software. Will be passing on to OSF engineers... It is supposedly a very simple/minimal change in code from what I understand.

The good thing about the 860c is that it is much more visible in sunlight! Also has an extra button on the remote control button panel...

Waynemarlow · Nov 19, 2019

obcd said:
imho, using a smartphone as ebike display is not an ideal solution.

Yes agree but the combo of the SW102 for the majority of times and then clip your Iphone or Android on using Lifeproof style covers would be pretty cool particulalry if the SW102 can talk in both directions to the phone, as and when you need it.

The ability of having heart rate in there is fantastic for the less able rider or those with a disability ( eg diabetics heart rate goes up alarmingly just as the sugar levels get into bad levels )

casainho · Nov 19, 2019

eyebyesickle said:
Rider2000 said:

Hi guys,

it is really nice to read the progress with the TSDZ2 programming. Especially the 850C support is great.

My question is: Is it also working with the new APT 860C Display ?

This would be really great.

Click to expand...

I think I just answered you who asked this in the other thread, but for everyone's reference here:

I'm waiting on some 860c samples, and getting the code modifications needed for the OSF software. Will be passing on to OSF engineers... It is supposedly a very simple/minimal change in code from what I understand.

The good thing about the 860c is that it is much more visible in sunlight! Also has an extra button on the remote control button panel...

I think I already have a 860C but as 850C. Someone sent me one 850C because the image was inverted. This display is clearly different in the colors and also has a small light sensor under the LCD, as seen on the image. The 850C board has the place for that light sensor but it is not assembled. This new version of 850C has the light sensor assembled and the LCD is clear better in the color at least, I didn't take it to outside. But this version still have the same 3 buttons.

To be clear, our firmware already works perfectly on this 850C new version, so, I guess it will also work on the 860C expect that will miss the extra button number 4.

Snoopz · Nov 20, 2019

mctubster said:
buba said:

Snoopz said:

buba said:

There is no difference between the 250/350/500/750 W versions of the TSDZ2. The only difference in the hardware is what type of motor you might have: 36 or 48 V. The controller is the same for all versions.

Click to expand...

How can't there be a difference in 250/350/500 and 750w? That statement contradicts itself. Would be like saying there isn't a difference between a kawasaki ninja with 200ps and a Honda with 50. In terms of raw power output.

Click to expand...

"There is no difference between the 250/350/500/750 W versions of the TSDZ2."

Again, when you are looking to buy a TSDZ2 and see that they are selling different versions with different wattages there is no difference in the hardware. The only difference in the hardware is the type of motor you choose: which is either a 36 or 48 V motor.

The power can be calculated from your maximum amperage multiplied with the voltage at that amperage.

When buying a kawasaki ninja with 200 horsepower you get an engine rated for 200 horsepower. When buying the TSDZ2 you can choose between several "versions" but they have the same hardware. The max amperage is limited to around 16 A which gets you around 750 W with a nominal 48 V battery.

Cheers,

Click to expand...

To expand on Buba's comment from a different perspective. A brushless DC motor (BLDC) is only limited in its power output by current / thermal limitations. Because a BLDC motor is controlled by a microcontroller the maximum power output is software defined, not hardware defined.

There is a hardcoded software limit in the code of 16A, giving the max power rating of 750W. If a motor is being sold with a lower power rating, then the current has been hardcoded to a lower level. The hardware remains the same.

The Open Source Firmware allows to you customize the max power output in the config menu, so you can buy a "250W" motor and turn it into a "750W" motor.

First of all, thank you guys very much for explaining this to me! I appreciate it!

Having your explanations in mind, the 350, 500 and 750W motors that are sold are effectively a scam?
And furthermore, I will be able to turn my 48v motor into 884W with my 17A battery? (Taking into account that I change the max. Amp to 17 in display) Or is it not possible, since (as you guys also stated) the motor, more precise the controller, is limited to 16A?

Which would then give me (16A*52V) 832W of power. Correct?

Again, thank you for your explanations and inputs

Cheers

Elinx · Nov 20, 2019

Snoopz said:
......
Having your explanations in mind, the 350, 500 and 750W motors that are sold are effectively a scam?....

Only if there are different prices for the rated power you want. There should be only two prices for 36V and 48V, because of the amount of copper that is used for the coils.
Not everone can or want to change the default firmware to get the max power he want.

Snoopz said:
And furthermore, I will be able to turn my 48v motor into 884W with my 17A battery? (Taking into account that I change the max. Amp to 17 in display) Or is it not possible, since (as you guys also stated) the motor, more precise the controller, is limited to 16A?

Which would then give me (16A*52V) 832W of power......

What do you mean with 17A battery?
If you mean 17Ah then it had nothing to do with the current of 17A in your settings.
A batterie of 10Ah can also give a current of 17A, but a shorter time.
But because there is a 16A max. current hardware limit, your setting of 17A is ignored, so your calculation is right.
This current setting is for limiting that max. current to get less heat (with less max. power on the downside).
A weakness of the tdsz2, that can be improved with some additions in the motor case.

Snoopz · Nov 20, 2019

Elinx said:
Snoopz said:

......
Having your explanations in mind, the 350, 500 and 750W motors that are sold are effectively a scam?....

Click to expand...

Only if there are different prices for the rated power you want. There should be only two prices for 36V and 48V, because of the amount of copper that is used for the coils.
Not everone can or want to change the default firmware to get the max power he want.

Snoopz said:

And furthermore, I will be able to turn my 48v motor into 884W with my 17A battery? (Taking into account that I change the max. Amp to 17 in display) Or is it not possible, since (as you guys also stated) the motor, more precise the controller, is limited to 16A?

Which would then give me (16A*52V) 832W of power......

Click to expand...

What do you mean with 17A battery?
If you mean 17Ah then it had nothing to do with the current of 17A in your settings.
A batterie of 10Ah can also give a current of 17A, but a shorter time.
But because there is a 16A max. current hardware limit, your setting of 17A is ignored, so your calculation is right.
This current setting is for limiting that max. current to get less heat (with less max. power on the downside).
A weakness of the tdsz2, that can be improved with some additions in the motor case.

Thank you for your answer

yeah I had a brainfart there. My batteries are able to do 20A continuous discharge, but yeah, 16A will be max limit

Again, thank you!

_g_ · Nov 21, 2019

For what it's worth - I believe cars and vans are often sold with near identical engines, then different power levels effectiely set by software.
The same is also true (or was) for computer chips< LED chips etc - though they may choose the better performing ones to be in the higher specification 'bins'.

obcd · Nov 21, 2019

It can only run at maximum power for a limited amount of time. The motor will overheat if you push it to hard. If it becomes 2 hot, it can burn the windings and it can demagnetizise the permanent magnets making the motor less powerfull. To avoid this, you can install a temperature sensor so that the controller limits it's current when a temperature treshold is reached. The temperature sensor is connected to the throttle input of the motor controller, so you can't have both temperature control and throttle.

casainho · Nov 21, 2019

obcd said:
It can only run at maximum power for a limited amount of time. The motor will overheat if you push it to hard. If it becomes 2 hot, it can burn the windings and it can demagnetizise the permanent magnets making the motor less powerfull. To avoid this, you can install a temperature sensor so that the controller limits it's current when a temperature treshold is reached. The temperature sensor is connected to the throttle input of the motor controller, so you can't have both temperature control and throttle.

Would be great if you could point to the wiki, were the new user can read all this in more detail: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-firmware/TSDZ2_wiki/wiki

1. How to install motor temperature sensor (optional but recommended)
2. How to improve motor heat dissipation (optional but recommended)

TSDZ2 mid drive with 860C, 850C or SW102 displays only -- Flexible OpenSource firmware (Casainho code only)

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