1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
donn   10 kW

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by donn » Oct 23 2019 10:19am

BlueSeas wrote:
Oct 23 2019 5:34am
The only drawback is CA3 cruise control. The regen brake alone does not disengage CA3 cruise.
What happens? I assume it does interrupt the cruise function - maybe it's too early in the morning, but I can't picture the motor both driving ahead and braking to send current in the other direction, at the same time. And then when you release the regen control, the motor returns to cruise control? I'm not sure, I might like that.

Interesting that the Phaserunner itself apparently doesn't support cruise control, as some other controllers do. Looks like it's designed to require CA3, so full function on stuff like interaction with cruise control depends on running everything through CA3.

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by john61ct » Oct 23 2019 4:43pm

I consider CAv3 pretty mandatory anyway. Pricing on easily tuned controllers with those feature sets would be pretty high?

Wouldn't it be nice if a magic add-on like CA3 helped automate the tuning process, for the likes of ASI BAC and Sevcon?

donn   10 kW

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by donn » Oct 23 2019 6:41pm

john61ct wrote:
Oct 23 2019 4:43pm
I consider CAv3 pretty mandatory anyway. Pricing on easily tuned controllers with those feature sets would be pretty high?
I wish I could tell you how much I paid for my "Infineon KH6xx" controller, but it was part of a package. A fraction of what a Phaserunner will cost you, for sure. I'm not saying it has all features of a Phaserunner, and specifically it doesn't have the variable rate regen that we've been talking about. I have a CA3, and of course it doesn't supply variable rate regen either - I suppose that really has to be built into the controller. On the other hand, I don't need to plug any controls into the CA3, they're all handled by the controller - throttle, selection between three throttle ranges, ebrake activated regen, cruise control with ebrake shutoff. Cruise control just seems like kind of an odd thing to leave off ... I don't know the market so well, but isn't that kind of the top end?

BlueSeas   10 W

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by BlueSeas » Oct 29 2019 5:56pm

On the question "what happens on cruise?". The variable regen input (thumb throttle) directly connected to the Phaserunner overrides the throttle input. Regen has priority in the Phaserunner. But since the CA3 without an Ebrake input signal, it doesn't know about the stop. At a full stop on regen alone, when you stop supplying the regen command, the CA3 will immediately resume the cruise setting. I think this could and should be fixed in the CA3 programming. Either 1) by sensing the regen charge or 2) automatically deactivating cruise if speed falls below like 8 mph.

The PR/CA3 is a premium package. Designed by enthusiasts for enthusiasts. It won't be standard on $1000-1500 Ebikes anytime soon. What you get is infinite configuration possibilities and data to analyze your choices.

I'm new to this...but would argue there is no longer a cost effective reason to DIY a basic Ebike. What's the minimum cost of a decent battery/motor/controller (with a warranty and support) to install on the beater bike you have sitting around? Pretty close to a finished Ebike. The main risk is which of these company's will survive? We don't know yet. So until then, the PR/CA3 is cheap insurance. Or use a Baserunner and give up the display,

500WhatsThat   10 mW

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by 500WhatsThat » Nov 30 2019 11:52am

Ebike_BDrew_Nov2019small.jpg
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I just completed my GMAC8T / Phaserunner / Cycle Analyst 3 / PAS 14S6P system on a 21" MTB Motobecane Elite Trail.
In Cruise, applying the Regen requires an Ebrake signal to switch the throttle into Proportional Regen mode. That pull on the brake lever stops the cruise mode as programmed (any change in ebrake or throttle voltages). In practise, The system works well and does not resume cruise when the lever is released (my own humble experience). All the firmware is at sep2019 vintage in this system from GrinTech. The one "trick" is that the rider must be sure to engage the ebrake (and that the signal is read by the CA3; Lever Icon is moving) before engaging the throttle(which is now Regen) It sounds obvious, but it takes a bit to get used to. When I get the sequence wrong, I'm applying Throttle, then ebraking, which is not good. :lol:

donn   10 kW

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by donn » Nov 30 2019 12:15pm

500WhatsThat wrote:
Nov 30 2019 11:52am
The one "trick" is that the rider must be sure to engage the ebrake (and that the signal is read by the CA3; Lever Icon is moving) before engaging the throttle(which is now Regen) It sounds obvious, but it takes a bit to get used to. When I get the sequence wrong, I'm applying Throttle, then ebraking, which is not good. :lol:
My goodness, you have it set up so forward throttle may be either forward drive or regen braking, depending on sequence of events involving the hand brake? That does sound like it would take some getting used to - I hope you will avoid any serious accidents!

AHicks   1 kW

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by AHicks » Nov 30 2019 1:33pm

It sounds good to me. I almost always apply front and rear brakes together to stop or slow (motorcycle back ground), so that assures a brake signal. From there, that's where I would need to get used to it. I find a thumb throttle more convenient personally. I would have to get used to that modulating that rear brake rather than the lever.

Betting it's not going to take too much to get used to that. Hoping to get the chance to find out some day.

500WhatsThat   10 mW

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by 500WhatsThat » Nov 30 2019 5:17pm

"Motorcycle background" - YES! Very important. Ride like you're invisible!
With the 9 level PAS sensor as the "master", the "throttle" lever (i didn't want the twist) is almost always just for Regen braking, so its more natural than one may think.
The Regen on the rear is smooth and strong, coordinated with the front, its a good 'motorcycle ' styled deceleration which is less wear on the 160mm mechanical disk pads.

AHicks   1 kW

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by AHicks » Dec 01 2019 9:07am

500WhatsThat wrote:
Nov 30 2019 5:17pm
With the 9 level PAS sensor as the "master", the "throttle" lever (i didn't want the twist) is almost always just for Regen braking, so its more natural than one may think.
Excellent point. I don't use that throttle very often either. Mostly just to get the bike moving from a dead stop. I can see where that will very likely be a leg up on getting used to that new brake....

500WhatsThat   10 mW

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by 500WhatsThat » Dec 01 2019 11:05am

AHicks, "Mostly just to get the bike moving from a dead stop. ". That's an opportunity to increase Range.
We humans are good at low speed, high torque, like when starting from a dead start.
The MTB as great low gears.

My CA3 is programmed NOT to add battery current until I get the Mass Moving, then it kicks in.
This way, the battery (and motor) are spared the "worst efficiency load" of a dead start, full amperage.
I don't have numbers as to how much this helps, but it makes sense to me based on all EV surge loads.
Might be a different way of riding, fer sure. But maybe worth it for a Commuter.

AHicks   1 kW

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by AHicks » Dec 01 2019 11:30am

Old man here, and honestly my balance and reflexes aren't getting any better (one of the reasons I don't ride motorcycles any more). So there's that, and using maybe quarter throttle tops long enough to get the bike moving (what, 2 seconds?), well, I'm willing to take the mileage and gear wear hit for the luxury of having that ability.

Riding purely for pleasure, and not very fast, so 35 mile range for a very peppy MAC 12t equipped bike suits me fine.

I do see where a more athletic person trying to squeeze every mile possible from a charge may benefit from the practice as you describe.

More proof, different strokes..... -Al

500WhatsThat   10 mW

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by 500WhatsThat » Dec 01 2019 11:55am

Ahicks, I 'feel ya Man'!
I'm pushing 60 myself.
Its great that these ebikes can be configured for so many uses and personal styles.
Even with full PAS, I still get exercise, contrary to what people guessing what its like might say.
For myself, 20mins of cardio on the same bike wasn't much fun.
Now, I can spend 2 hours with an 'elevated heart rate ' and not be in cardio risk if I get caught down-wind, when I'm fatigued.
You hang in there and enjoy the ride!!

Jil   100 W

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by Jil » Dec 01 2019 1:15pm

Quick feedback after 1 month 1/2 and 5-600 kms with my GMAC 8T (on 29" wheel) + Phaserunner + 14S6P battery + PAS : this setup is wonderful !

I'm able to drive at 50 kph on flat, with a power around 1200–1300W.
The Phaserunner is amazing, so much power in such a small device ! But it's not made for more than 1350-1400 W continously (at least with the 8T model, which requires higer phase current than the 10T). I've tried to use it at 1500W, after 15mn it has derated automatically to 1350W.

Average consumption on my daily ride (50% road, 50% urban) : 21Wh/km.
The motor is powerfull, smooth, reliable.
I'm using a sensor for the electronic braking, it's working well since I have found the right way to place it : https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bic ... -push.html
Image
Last edited by Jil on Dec 03 2019 6:36am, edited 1 time in total.
My bike : Surly "eKrampus" with GMAC 8T, Phaserunner and 20 Ah/52 V Li-ion battery.

500WhatsThat   10 mW

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by 500WhatsThat » Dec 02 2019 9:53am

Jil - Nice Ebike!

I too went the the "top line" components of "GMAC 8T (on 29" wheel) + Phaserunner + 14S6P battery + PAS ".
My CA3 doesn't seem to repeat the motor temperature from the Phaserunner. The Temp reads -39C, LoL.
Does yours?

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E-HP   100 kW

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by E-HP » Dec 02 2019 12:55pm

Turned out great! And stealthy too. :thumb:

Jil   100 W

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by Jil » Dec 03 2019 6:40am

500WhatsThat wrote:
Dec 02 2019 9:53am
My CA3 doesn't seem to repeat the motor temperature from the Phaserunner. The Temp reads -39C, LoL.
Does yours?
No but I don’t have the temperature cable.
Anyways given my use (high speed and flat terrain), the motor is not the limitation. I’ve never found it to be even a bit warm after use.
My bike : Surly "eKrampus" with GMAC 8T, Phaserunner and 20 Ah/52 V Li-ion battery.

mexican_amigo   1 µW

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by mexican_amigo » Dec 04 2019 12:50am

How fast do you spin out with that chain ring?

500WhatsThat   10 mW

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Re: 1 kW motor : rear G360, GMAC, 9C RH212, Crystalyte H3540 - or front Grin All Axle ?

Post by 500WhatsThat » Dec 14 2019 6:17pm

Jil wrote:
Dec 03 2019 6:40am
500WhatsThat wrote:
Dec 02 2019 9:53am
My CA3 doesn't seem to repeat the motor temperature from the Phaserunner. The Temp reads -39C, LoL.
Does yours?
No but I don’t have the temperature cable.
Anyways given my use (high speed and flat terrain), the motor is not the limitation. I’ve never found it to be even a bit warm after use.
YEP! GrinTech advised me to add the temp cable, as you noted-Thanks
Instead of running another cable (I like "clean" installs) im getting a 10 conductor to carry the CA3, PAS, and Temp signals.
All are very low current, so the OD will be just about 4.5mm for all (one cable instead of three)
I made the brake sensor from a Hall Effect IC and a small set of magnets. So I could keep my Shimano all-in-one shifters.
The Regen braking is Awesome. Really saves brake wear. Road its only about 3%. On moutain trails its about 15%.
24Wh/mile commuting full speed (average with traffic 25mph, 36mph max). Mountain trails its only 14Wh/mile, and i'm getting a good work out!
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