New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

bombusint · Dec 9, 2019

Greetings All

My current ebike is a Scott with a 36v/350w standard TSDZ2

My next project is to convert a Kona Minute ‘barn find’.

The Minute is a mid sized cargo bike, no longer made but of a type becoming increasingly popular.

Although several years old it had been redundant stock from a closed bike shop and had been ridden only 3-4 times.

As an older person in my 70’s (how did that happen!!?), and having had a heart bypass, I am quite particular in my wants.

Please free to throw cold water on these ideas, there is a lot of experience out there when it comes to reinventing the wheel.

My last ebike was a 1000W rear hub drive. All very exciting, especially when the wheel decided to go along the kerb instead of up on to the bike path. I can personally verify that concrete is hard and old men do not bounce! End result was a badly smashed shoulder joint.

Being a cadence type bike the pedals were in effect a rotary throttle, and although it was excellent transport (1,700kms in 4 months), I did not get any exercise to speak of.

So I want/need lower cadence with high torque, with a throttle for start-offs.

Here in NZ it is hilly, and usually quite a distance between towns, so a high power motor and high capacity battery is required.

As it happens a triangular high capacity 52 volt battery from Luna Mate will fit into the frame just nicely.
http://luna-mate.com/triangle-52v-samsung-18650-24ah-pack-high-power-long-range-au/

These come with a clever charger so one can charge to 80% for day to day use, and top up to 100% for long trips, which helps battery life.

Murphy’s Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy%27s_law) means that any unplanned stop will result in the bike being in a high gear with the pedal in an awkward position, so the throttle, along with a suitable IGH is highly desirable.

Wouldn’t a Rohlhoff be nice .... but ..... $$$$$$’s!
Shimano are releasing IGH’s designed for ebikes, so that looks promising, though ratio range does not look exceptional. They have also released the M355 hydraulic cut-out brake levers and calipers for bikes, though they are not available in all markets yet.

https://em3ev.com/shop/shimano-m355-hydraulic-brake-levers-ebrake-sensor/

I had great hopes with the Nuvinci hubs, but they are heavy and reviews are quite mixed, though they do cater for the high torque output of ebike motors.

Schwalbe Big Apple tyres and maybe a suspension front fork swap should take care of ride. Smashed shoulder joints don’t like bumps.

Which brings me to the motor. Ebike motor de jour seems to be Bosch ,but I don’t really like them. Too noisy and they keep changing them. Plus I want more power.

Dapu looked promising, with twice the torque of Bosch, but not a retro fit. Likewise Brose. Bafang seems to have only OEM torque sensing mid motors.

So I circled round to TSDZ2. The claimed power seems a bit vague. Is it really 750W, or 750W peak, or RMS, or yeah right!

However, I really like the look of the open source software. In particular the ability to set max. power drain so that it can be safer to run the motor over a wider voltage range.

I also like the possibility of a hand throttle for start-off.

However, the threads warning of overheating concern me a bit, but it seems you can’t have internal temp. measurement and a hand throttle.

And ,now I see some comments that the TSDZ2 is not rugged enough for a cargo bike, though opinions seems to be mixed.

My current plans are to buy a kit from https://www.electrifybike.com/#/ with the open source V20 installed, once a stable version is released that can talk to the 850c controller.

That way the conversion can be ‘plug and play’ and I will have all the necessary cable and software to experiment on a spare motor controller I have for my 36V bike, and to learn how to flash the software for my standard bike.

So when will the stable version of V20 be available?

Perhaps we need some more donations to casainho?

Richard

casainho · Dec 10, 2019

bombusint said:
So when will the stable version of V20 be available?

Maybe will not be linear. I am thinking in keep improving at small pieces the V0.19 and bring the parts from V0.20, again, in small parts and not everything once, so, at least from me, there will be no V0.20 but maybe V0.3, or V0.5, I don]t know.

casainho · Dec 10, 2019

Retrorockit said:
I doubt that the splined joint is what's slipping.

You are right, at the pictures I took from mine, the spline is perfect otherwise it would be easy seen.

Retrorockit said:
IF the "bearing" is spinning in it's bore then that's a metal to metal seam, and bearing mount would fix it. But only if you pressed the bearing out of the splined sleeve and left the sleeve in the plastic gear. Then the Loctite would be going into a metal to metal situation. It's possible that the lubricant is getting too thick at low temperatures to allow the roller clutch to function properly. With a metal gear you would have a better choice of lubicants to use there.

So there is a clutch on this bearing? So this is a second clutch on a bearing on the TSDZ2... and I guess this one is for not making the motor rotating freely when we disable the motor, otherwise maybe it would rotate freely a bit more because the mass of the main gear??

I would like to know how this bearing/gear fixes/attaches to the pinion gear shaft... could the slipping be there and not on the bearing internals?

By the way, this issue happens to me with 15 degrees Celsius and even when the TSDZ2 has high temperature like 40 degrees inside. I am not sure this is a temperature related issue.

So, until it is clear what is really slipping, I updated the wiki with this solutions:

- exchange for a new blue gear
- exchange the roller clutch by gently removing the old one: this is possible if you can recycle a good one from an old blue gear

NexusG · Dec 10, 2019

I don't think changing the entire blue gear is a good solution because the issue is likely to reappear

Note that I had the same problem with a metal gear and during a hot summer in Spain. It dissapear suddenly for a mysterious reason

If the slipping is between the sleeve and the clutch, I think glue (which one) is the only solution

casainho · Dec 10, 2019

NexusG said:
I don't think changing the entire blue gear is a good solution because the issue is likely to reappear

Note that I had the same problem with a metal gear and during a hot summer in Spain. It dissapear suddenly for a mysterious reason

If the slipping is between the sleeve and the clutch, I think glue (which one) is the only solution

I would like to understand what is the sleeve... I tried the translator but still I can understand.

There are only 2 parts here, the blue gear and the pinion gear (each of them costs about 16 euros on Aliexpress), and the problem seems to be in one of them. In my case, I exchanged the blue gear to a new one and the problem is solved (at least for now).

But yes, I would like to understand where is the slipping...

1. the blue gear

2. the pinion gear

NexusG · Dec 10, 2019

From what I understood, the sleeve is the splined metallic part on the blue gear

The slipping issue is between this part and the hf1216 itself (exactly where the red arrow is pointing)

casainho · Dec 10, 2019

NexusG said:
From what I understood, the sleeve is the splined metallic part on the blue gear

The slipping issue is between this part and the hf1216 itself (exactly where the red arrow is pointing)

Then,

NexusG said:
I don't think changing the entire blue gear is a good solution because the issue is likely to reappear

If the slipping is between the sleeve and the clutch, I think glue (which one) is the only solution

I think it is a good idea to use a solution to keep the splined metallic part fixed to the bearing, just like it should be as original.

Also, changing for a new blue gear is a solution (up to when we still don't know). We don't know what triggers this issue, it can be something that suddenly blocked the chain wheel like what I think did happened in my case, and if so, changing for a new blue gear is a solution and also the glue, we still don't know for how long the glue will hold.

Well, I will keep the old blue gear with me, I may need it in future and I can buy easily locally flue to repair it. Buying for 15 euros the blue gear is nice but it can take up to 3 or 4 weeks to arrive to my home...

NexusG · Dec 10, 2019

Also it could be a good idea to press out the old hf1216 and remplace it with a better quality Japan one
The overall reliability of tsdz2 would be increased

casainho · Dec 10, 2019

NexusG said:
Also it could be a good idea to press out the old hf1216 and remplace it with a better quality Japan one
The overall reliability of tsdz2 would be increased

Well, there is no issue on my HF1216 and I have 4 ebikes with TSDZ2.

The ebike that I am being using on MTB (as also I use in the city), 4h rides under rain, a lot of mud, rocks on high speed descents, is having maintenance needs recently, both on TSDZ2 as also on the chain, gears cassete, new brake pads, etc.

hego · Dec 10, 2019

casainho said:
hego said:

There is any doc about the SW102 display configurations?
I can´t find it.
Cheers

Click to expand...

No, and the developers are not putting effort to write it.... let´s see if I can do one shared with 850C display.

Thank´s Casainho, I try to see the 850C config for similars at SW102 o stay at KT display v.0.19.

I like too the mono-chrome display LCD3, but I think his low memory limit the developing.

Cheers

casainho · Dec 10, 2019

hego said:
casainho said:

hego said:

There is any doc about the SW102 display configurations?
I can´t find it.
Cheers

Click to expand...

No, and the developers are not putting effort to write it.... let´s see if I can do one shared with 850C display.

Click to expand...

Thank´s Casainho, I try to see the 850C config for similars at SW102 o stay at KT display v.0.19.

I already started to update the wiki for 850C and I am reusing the good information that was created for the KT-LCD3.

mctubster · Dec 10, 2019

bombusint said:
snip ...
My next project is to convert a Kona Minute ‘barn find’.

snip ...

However, the threads warning of overheating concern me a bit, but it seems you can’t have internal temp. measurement and a hand throttle.

And ,now I see some comments that the TSDZ2 is not rugged enough for a cargo bike, though opinions seems to be mixed.

My current plans are to buy a kit from https://www.electrifybike.com/#/ with the open source V20 installed, once a stable version is released that can talk to the 850c controller.

That way the conversion can be ‘plug and play’ and I will have all the necessary cable and software to experiment on a spare motor controller I have for my 36V bike, and to learn how to flash the software for my standard bike.

So when will the stable version of V20 be available?

Perhaps we need some more donations to casainho?
Richard

Hi, sorry I don't have time to reply inline, but thought I can give you some feedback in general. I'm currently in Nelson riding a Gazelle Cabby cargo bike (with the TSDZ2 running 0.20 and KT-LCD3). 45KG empty.

Almost 3000K so far. Generally riding with two kids and cargo, so bike + kids + me = 180KG. Zero mechanical issues. Stripped the motor a few weeks ago (more from interest because I was installing the temp sensor). TBH in NZ you don't need the temp sensor, unless you are running 500W+ for a long time.

Running Schwalbe Big Ben on the front. Swapped in Sturmey-Archer drum brake on front. Great device, better modulation than disc brakes. 36V TSDZ2 with 10Ah LiPo (Drone) batteries. Nuvinci N360 on rear. Can change down under full power, cannot change up under full power, changes ok at 200-300W. Fantastic having infinite gear selection. Bike came with Shimano 7 speed, bit clunky, think it was dying slowly. I have a 11 speed Alfine on a muscle bike. That can be a bit munchy crunchy even with just me under high load. On a heavy bike with assist it would pop in my opinion. I've heard the 8 speed Shimano is a bit more durable.

If you want a very stable feature rich firmware (now) that is essentially complete, go with the LT-LCD3. Yes there are grand plans for the SW102 and 850C but I fear some time will pass to get very valuable features like SOC tracking, different power modes etc.

Cheers

Retrorockit · Dec 10, 2019

casainho said:
NexusG said:

I don't think changing the entire blue gear is a good solution because the issue is likely to reappear

Note that I had the same problem with a metal gear and during a hot summer in Spain. It dissapear suddenly for a mysterious reason

If the slipping is between the sleeve and the clutch, I think glue (which one) is the only solution

Click to expand...

I would like to understand what is the sleeve... I tried the translator but still I can understand.

There are only 2 parts here, the blue gear and the pinion gear (each of them costs about 16 euros on Aliexpress), and the problem seems to be in one of them. In my case, I exchanged the blue gear to a new one and the problem is solved (at least for now).

But yes, I would like to understand where is the slipping...

1. the blue gear

There are 3 parts there. The plastic gear, and the splined ( toothed) metal sleeve which should remain part of it when taken a part. The HF1216 has an arrow on it to show which way it should drive or lock up. The arrow is right next to the red arrow. The roller clutch is a very cheap solution. It uses the shaft as an inner race. When the gear tries to turn against the arrow the rollers are wedged inwards against the shaft by ramps in the shell of the bearing. Failure could be either the rollers slipping on the shaft, the whole roller clutch turning in the gear ( less likely unless the machining is wrong), or the rollers staying in the free position when they shouldn't ( cold grease could do this). This clutch is there so the motor won't turn when you pedal with the power off. The one in the pedals is there so the pedals won't speed up when you use just the throttle. A roller sprag clutch would be the proper device there but it's bigger and more expensive. Instead of rollers it has clutches with a figure 8 profile and a spring that allows them to release one way , but gently pushes them to engage the other. Other sprags have ratcheting pawls than lock into notches but they're noisy. Ratchet wrenches use those. You can hear them in some MTB rear hubs. They never slip. You have to actually break something on those.

Retrorockit · Dec 10, 2019

casainho said:
NexusG said:

I don't think changing the entire blue gear is a good solution because the issue is likely to reappear

Note that I had the same problem with a metal gear and during a hot summer in Spain. It dissapear suddenly for a mysterious reason

If the slipping is between the sleeve and the clutch, I think glue (which one) is the only solution

Click to expand...

I would like to understand what is the sleeve... I tried the translator but still I can understand.

There are only 2 parts here, the blue gear and the pinion gear (each of them costs about 16 euros on Aliexpress), and the problem seems to be in one of them. In my case, I exchanged the blue gear to a new one and the problem is solved (at least for now).

But yes, I would like to understand where is the slipping...

1. the blue gear

There are 3 parts there. The plastic gear, and the splined ( toothed) metal sleeve which should remain part of it when taken a part. The HF1216 has an arrow on it to show which way it should drive or lock up. The arrow is right next to the red arrow. The roller clutch is a very cheap solution. It uses the shaft as an inner race. When the gear tries to turn against the arrow the rollers are wedged inwards against the shaft by ramps in the shell of the bearing. Failure could be either the rollers slipping on the shaft (perhaps the grease is too thick to move out of the way), the whole roller clutch turning in the gear ( less likely unless the machining is wrong), or the rollers staying in the free position when they shouldn't ( cold grease could do this). This clutch is there so the motor won't turn when you pedal with the power off. The one in the pedals is there so the pedals won't speed up when you use just the throttle. A roller sprag clutch would be the proper device there but it's bigger and more expensive. Instead of rollers it has clutches with a figure 8 profile and a spring that allows them to release one way , but gently pushes them to engage the other. They're used in automatic transmissions with very thin oil and almost never cause problems. Other sprags have ratcheting pawls than lock into notches but they're noisy. Ratchet wrenches use those. You can hear them in some MTB rear hubs. They never slip. You have to actually break something on those.
This is the sort of thing one would expect when you have a 350W motor making 750W.

lupe · Dec 10, 2019

Hi All. I have a TSDZ2 question. I am thinking of buying one of these for my wife's Gazelle. I notice there are a number of versions of the motor 500x, 750w - 48v, 52v etc. I want to run it off a 52v battery so my wife and I can swap batteries if needs be. Does the 48v model motor run on a 52v battery or do I need to purchase the 52v model? I'm also in NZ - seems to be a few kiwis on here :thumb:

Retrorockit · Dec 10, 2019

bombusint said:
Greetings All
My next project is to convert a Kona Minute ‘barn find’.

The Minute is a mid sized cargo bike, no longer made but of a type becoming increasingly popular.
As an older person in my 70’s (how did that happen!!?), and having had a heart bypass, I am quite particular in my wants.

Please free to throw cold water on these ideas, there is a lot of experience out there when it comes to reinventing the wheel.

My last ebike was a 1000W rear hub drive. All very exciting, especially when the wheel decided to go along the kerb instead of up on to the bike path. I can personally verify that concrete is hard and old men do not bounce! End result was a badly smashed shoulder joint.

Being a cadence type bike the pedals were in effect a rotary throttle, and although it was excellent transport (1,700kms in 4 months), I did not get any exercise to speak of.

So I want/need lower cadence with high torque, with a throttle for start-offs.

Here in NZ it is hilly, and usually quite a distance between towns, so a high power motor and high capacity battery is required.

As it happens a triangular high capacity 52 volt battery from Luna Mate will fit into the frame just nicely.
http://luna-mate.com/triangle-52v-samsung-18650-24ah-pack-high-power-long-range-au/
Murphy’s Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy%27s_law) means that any unplanned stop will result in the bike being in a high gear with the pedal in an awkward position, so the throttle, along with a suitable IGH is highly desirable.

Shimano are releasing IGH’s designed for ebikes, so that looks promising, though ratio range does not look exceptional. They have also released the M355 hydraulic cut-out brake levers and calipers for bikes, though they are not available in all markets yet.

Schwalbe Big Apple tyres and maybe a suspension front fork swap should take care of ride. Smashed shoulder joints don’t like bumps.

Which brings me to the motor. Ebike motor de jour seems to be Bosch ,but I don’t really like them. Too noisy and they keep changing them. Plus I want more power.
. Bafang seems to have only OEM torque sensing mid motors.

So I circled round to TSDZ2. The claimed power seems a bit vague. Is it really 750W, or 750W peak, or RMS, or yeah right!

However, I really like the look of the open source software. In particular the ability to set max. power drain so that it can be safer to run the motor over a wider voltage range.

I also like the possibility of a hand throttle for start-off.

However, the threads warning of overheating concern me a bit, but it seems you can’t have internal temp. measurement and a hand throttle.

And ,now I see some comments that the TSDZ2 is not rugged enough for a cargo bike, though opinions seems to be mixed.

My current plans are to buy a kit from https://www.electrifybike.com/#/ with the open source V20 installed, once a stable version is released that can talk to the 850c controller.

That way the conversion can be ‘plug and play’ and I will have all the necessary cable and software to experiment on a spare motor controller I have for my 36V bike, and to learn how to flash the software for my standard bike.

So when will the stable version of V20 be available?

Perhaps we need some more donations to casainho?
Richard

I'm 66 years old and in the US. I ride urban South Florida which is one of the hairier places to ride a bike.
1- Adding a suspension fork will slow down the handling horribly. Not what's needed on a long cargo bike. Get the biggest tires you can fit and get the pressure to 30 psi or less if possible.
An upright riding position takes weight off of the hands/arms. Suspension seat post. Cane Creek Thudbuster LT is the classic, but the Suntour NCX get's the job done at 1/2 the price. If there are no disc brake tabs use the SA drum Brake.
2- I'm not a fan of hydraulic brakes on bicycles. Avid BB7 with big rotors, and sintered copper pads (on old DH racing setup) are simple reiable and DIY fixable. Working just fine on my 35mph road burner. Sintered pads can boil the fluid in some hydro brakes.
3- Shimano has a 5 speed Ebike hub. 1st gear is direct, all others are OD so gear accordingly. Only in Europe/Japan so far. The old Sturmey Archer 3 speed is tough as hell though. Drum or disc versions. Even some with 8/9 speed casette splines for more gear range if desired. Direct drive in 2nd gear.
IGH gets you a wide single speed chain. Wippermann 1E8 is beastly thick.
4- There is a fix for the derailer downshift issue. Shimano Rapid Rise 8-9 speed, aka "low normal".
the shifter lets out cable for downshifts. RD MD951, RD M960 derailers. Medium cage can be found for a 1x drivetrain in XTR group. There were others in XT,LX and Tourney groups. You will need a gripshift, SRAM Rocket or Attack work. SL RS40 is a Shimano Rapid Rise gripshift. Trigger shifters only allow 1 up 3 down shifting and RR is reverse pattern so forget that. The gripshift can dump all gears sitting still. The shift will happen when the bike drives forward ( the chain must be moving). Not as slick as an IGH, But real close. I'm running 50t Surly stainless steel ring x 11-40t Sunrace 8 speed casette. M951 mid cage, SL RS40 shifter.
5- TSDZ2? These are popular where 350W is the legal limit. Like the Bosch and Yamaha stuff. I'm in the US and 750W is the legal limit here. BBS02 and BBSHD are prefered, and TSDZ2 is almost unheard of. They have no cooling to speak of. The driveline was designed for 350w. Luck of the draw whether yours will break or not. Long walk home at 70 years old? In the hills? Pushing a cargo bike? Lots of broken parts in this thread. I have no idea what the inside of my 1500W BBSHD looks like. Riveted Wippermann 8SE chain hold up pretty well. Measure the stretch and lube often. Wheels up 3rd gear launches and 30+mph blasts in traffic are not unusual for me. Silent also. Think BBSHD is too expensive? The only thing that costs more than doing it right the first time, is doing it right the 2nd time. Luna can set you up with it all in one shot.
6- Exercise? I run PAS 1/5 unless there's a headwind or I'm climbing a bridge then 2/5. I find a speed that's easy, then shift up a gear and ride 3-4mph faster at the same assist. I get my exercise, and get where I'm going sooner.
I hope this gives you some ideas. If you use a Wippermann Connex link, carry a spare. I took me 6 months but I did manage to break one. Long walk etc.etc.

casainho · Dec 11, 2019

Retrorockit said:
It uses the shaft as an inner race. When the gear tries to turn against the arrow the rollers are wedged inwards against the shaft by ramps in the shell of the bearing.

You mean the shaft of pinion gear??

Retrorockit said:
This clutch is there so the motor won't turn when you pedal with the power off. The one in the pedals is there so the pedals won't speed up when you use just the throttle.

Good to know. Thanks.

NexusG · Dec 11, 2019

Retrorockit said:
casainho said:

NexusG said:

I don't think changing the entire blue gear is a good solution because the issue is likely to reappear

Note that I had the same problem with a metal gear and during a hot summer in Spain. It dissapear suddenly for a mysterious reason

If the slipping is between the sleeve and the clutch, I think glue (which one) is the only solution

Click to expand...

I would like to understand what is the sleeve... I tried the translator but still I can understand.

There are only 2 parts here, the blue gear and the pinion gear (each of them costs about 16 euros on Aliexpress), and the problem seems to be in one of them. In my case, I exchanged the blue gear to a new one and the problem is solved (at least for now).

But yes, I would like to understand where is the slipping...

1. the blue gear

Click to expand...

There are 3 parts there. The plastic gear, and the splined ( toothed) metal sleeve which should remain part of it when taken a part. The HF1216 has an arrow on it to show which way it should drive or lock up. The arrow is right next to the red arrow. The roller clutch is a very cheap solution. It uses the shaft as an inner race. When the gear tries to turn against the arrow the rollers are wedged inwards against the shaft by ramps in the shell of the bearing. Failure could be either the rollers slipping on the shaft (perhaps the grease is too thick to move out of the way), the whole roller clutch turning in the gear ( less likely unless the machining is wrong), or the rollers staying in the free position when they shouldn't ( cold grease could do this). This clutch is there so the motor won't turn when you pedal with the power off. The one in the pedals is there so the pedals won't speed up when you use just the throttle. A roller sprag clutch would be the proper device there but it's bigger and more expensive. Instead of rollers it has clutches with a figure 8 profile and a spring that allows them to release one way , but gently pushes them to engage the other. They're used in automatic transmissions with very thin oil and almost never cause problems. Other sprags have ratcheting pawls than lock into notches but they're noisy. Ratchet wrenches use those. You can hear them in some MTB rear hubs. They never slip. You have to actually break something on those.
This is the sort of thing one would expect when you have a 350W motor making 750W.

That's some interesting infos !
So there should not be any grease between the hf1216 and the shaft
And the hf1216 itself could possibly be an issue
What would you consider to be the best long term solution ?

twiersum · Dec 11, 2019

Can the new firmware be used with lcd6? How can I adjust my low voltage cut off down from 48v? I'm running 52v 14s2p.

cresny · Dec 11, 2019

Hi all, after a couple of great years things got weird and I'm hoping an expert here can help
suddenly the VLCD-5 display is frozen and looks exactly like below

Nothing works but the lights do go on and off.
The only way to get the display to shut off is remove the battery or disconnect a cable.
Does anyone have any idea about what this could be? I expect if it's the motor, the display would show a fault. Should I buy a new display?

Elinx · Dec 11, 2019

twiersum said:
Can the new firmware be used with lcd6? .....

Yes, you can use the new firmware (for now v0.19) with default displays (vlcd6/ vlcd5/ xh18) too.
You need to go with qMarco's fork.
On that page you can see and find the most info of it.
Settings and flashing can be done with a configuration screen, instead of the display.

bombusint · Dec 13, 2019

Retrorockit said:
bombusint said:

Greetings All
My next project is to convert a Kona Minute ‘barn find’.

The Minute is a mid sized cargo bike, no longer made but of a type becoming increasingly popular.
As an older person in my 70’s (how did that happen!!?), and having had a heart bypass, I am quite particular in my wants.

Please free to throw cold water on these ideas, there is a lot of experience out there when it comes to reinventing the wheel.

My last ebike was a 1000W rear hub drive. All very exciting, especially when the wheel decided to go along the kerb instead of up on to the bike path. I can personally verify that concrete is hard and old men do not bounce! End result was a badly smashed shoulder joint.

Being a cadence type bike the pedals were in effect a rotary throttle, and although it was excellent transport (1,700kms in 4 months), I did not get any exercise to speak of.

So I want/need lower cadence with high torque, with a throttle for start-offs.

Here in NZ it is hilly, and usually quite a distance between towns, so a high power motor and high capacity battery is required.

As it happens a triangular high capacity 52 volt battery from Luna Mate will fit into the frame just nicely.
http://luna-mate.com/triangle-52v-samsung-18650-24ah-pack-high-power-long-range-au/
Murphy’s Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy%27s_law) means that any unplanned stop will result in the bike being in a high gear with the pedal in an awkward position, so the throttle, along with a suitable IGH is highly desirable.

Shimano are releasing IGH’s designed for ebikes, so that looks promising, though ratio range does not look exceptional. They have also released the M355 hydraulic cut-out brake levers and calipers for bikes, though they are not available in all markets yet.

Schwalbe Big Apple tyres and maybe a suspension front fork swap should take care of ride. Smashed shoulder joints don’t like bumps.

Which brings me to the motor. Ebike motor de jour seems to be Bosch ,but I don’t really like them. Too noisy and they keep changing them. Plus I want more power.
. Bafang seems to have only OEM torque sensing mid motors.

So I circled round to TSDZ2. The claimed power seems a bit vague. Is it really 750W, or 750W peak, or RMS, or yeah right!

However, I really like the look of the open source software. In particular the ability to set max. power drain so that it can be safer to run the motor over a wider voltage range.

I also like the possibility of a hand throttle for start-off.

However, the threads warning of overheating concern me a bit, but it seems you can’t have internal temp. measurement and a hand throttle.

And ,now I see some comments that the TSDZ2 is not rugged enough for a cargo bike, though opinions seems to be mixed.

My current plans are to buy a kit from https://www.electrifybike.com/#/ with the open source V20 installed, once a stable version is released that can talk to the 850c controller.

That way the conversion can be ‘plug and play’ and I will have all the necessary cable and software to experiment on a spare motor controller I have for my 36V bike, and to learn how to flash the software for my standard bike.

So when will the stable version of V20 be available?

Perhaps we need some more donations to casainho?
Richard

Click to expand...

I'm 66 years old and in the US. I ride urban South Florida which is one of the hairier places to ride a bike.
1- Adding a suspension fork will slow down the handling horribly. Not what's needed on a long cargo bike. Get the biggest tires you can fit and get the pressure to 30 psi or less if possible.
An upright riding position takes weight off of the hands/arms. Suspension seat post. Cane Creek Thudbuster LT is the classic, but the Suntour NCX get's the job done at 1/2 the price. If there are no disc brake tabs use the SA drum Brake.
2- I'm not a fan of hydraulic brakes on bicycles. Avid BB7 with big rotors, and sintered copper pads (on old DH racing setup) are simple reiable and DIY fixable. Working just fine on my 35mph road burner. Sintered pads can boil the fluid in some hydro brakes.
3- Shimano has a 5 speed Ebike hub. 1st gear is direct, all others are OD so gear accordingly. Only in Europe/Japan so far. The old Sturmey Archer 3 speed is tough as hell though. Drum or disc versions. Even some with 8/9 speed casette splines for more gear range if desired. Direct drive in 2nd gear.
IGH gets you a wide single speed chain. Wippermann 1E8 is beastly thick.
4- There is a fix for the derailer downshift issue. Shimano Rapid Rise 8-9 speed, aka "low normal".
the shifter lets out cable for downshifts. RD MD951, RD M960 derailers. Medium cage can be found for a 1x drivetrain in XTR group. There were others in XT,LX and Tourney groups. You will need a gripshift, SRAM Rocket or Attack work. SL RS40 is a Shimano Rapid Rise gripshift. Trigger shifters only allow 1 up 3 down shifting and RR is reverse pattern so forget that. The gripshift can dump all gears sitting still. The shift will happen when the bike drives forward ( the chain must be moving). Not as slick as an IGH, But real close. I'm running 50t Surly stainless steel ring x 11-40t Sunrace 8 speed casette. M951 mid cage, SL RS40 shifter.
5- TSDZ2? These are popular where 350W is the legal limit. Like the Bosch and Yamaha stuff. I'm in the US and 750W is the legal limit here. BBS02 and BBSHD are prefered, and TSDZ2 is almost unheard of. They have no cooling to speak of. The driveline was designed for 350w. Luck of the draw whether yours will break or not. Long walk home at 70 years old? In the hills? Pushing a cargo bike? Lots of broken parts in this thread. I have no idea what the inside of my 1500W BBSHD looks like. Riveted Wippermann 8SE chain hold up pretty well. Measure the stretch and lube often. Wheels up 3rd gear launches and 30+mph blasts in traffic are not unusual for me. Silent also. Think BBSHD is too expensive? The only thing that costs more than doing it right the first time, is doing it right the 2nd time. Luna can set you up with it all in one shot.
6- Exercise? I run PAS 1/5 unless there's a headwind or I'm climbing a bridge then 2/5. I find a speed that's easy, then shift up a gear and ride 3-4mph faster at the same assist. I get my exercise, and get where I'm going sooner.
I hope this gives you some ideas. If you use a Wippermann Connex link, carry a spare. I took me 6 months but I did manage to break one. Long walk etc.etc.

Thanks for your input.
Re front shock forks - the Kona Minute is a mid length cargo bike. More of an SUV than a truck. I know of one that was converted to a fat bike with front shocks very successfully.

Re Bafang vs TZDZ2 ... I have used cadence and torque sensing and for me torque sensing is a better experience.

Michael B · Dec 13, 2019

bombusint said:
Retrorockit said:

bombusint said:

Here in NZ it is hilly, and usually quite a distance between towns, so a high power motor and high capacity battery is required.

So I circled round to TSDZ2. The claimed power seems a bit vague. Is it really 750W, or 750W peak, or RMS, or yeah right!

Click to expand...

5- TSDZ2? These are popular where 350W is the legal limit. Like the Bosch and Yamaha stuff. I'm in the US and 750W is the legal limit here. BBS02 and BBSHD are prefered, and TSDZ2 is almost unheard of. They have no cooling to speak of. The driveline was designed for 350w. Luck of the draw whether yours will break or not. Long walk home at 70 years old? In the hills? Pushing a cargo bike? Lots of broken parts in this thread. I have no idea what the inside of my 1500W BBSHD looks like. Riveted Wippermann 8SE chain hold up pretty well. Measure the stretch and lube often. Wheels up 3rd gear launches and 30+mph blasts in traffic are not unusual for me. Silent also. Think BBSHD is too expensive? The only thing that costs more than doing it right the first time, is doing it right the 2nd time. Luna can set you up with it all in one shot.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your input.
Re front shock forks - the Kona Minute is a mid length cargo bike. More of an SUV than a truck. I know of one that was converted to a fat bike with front shocks very successfully.

Re Bafang vs TZDZ2 ... I have used cadence and torque sensing and for me torque sensing is a better experience.

Officially NZ has a 300 watt limit but I expect DIYers don't take much notice of this.

I'm using a 48V TSDZ2 with Ackmaniaks fork (VLCD5 display) and really like the riding experience, but am only using it in a reasonably smooth way on the road. 35-40 km/h on the flat.

54T narrow wide chainring. 11-40 cassette. I don't need to use the 11 and can't use the 35 or 40. Spending much more time on the drops these days. I'm 59 years old - yeah, how did that happen, 85kg, the bike 17kg, and work backpack about 4kg. 13s2p cheap rubbish battery but good enough for what I'm doing. Probably replace it with a better quality 13s3p, or 14s3p would also be an option when the time comes.

I bought the 8 pin version but have never fitted the throttle or brakes (wouldn't work on drop bars?).

bombusint · Dec 14, 2019

mctubster said:
bombusint said:

snip ...
My next project is to convert a Kona Minute ‘barn find’.

snip ...

However, the threads warning of overheating concern me a bit, but it seems you can’t have internal temp. measurement and a hand throttle.

And ,now I see some comments that the TSDZ2 is not rugged enough for a cargo bike, though opinions seems to be mixed.

My current plans are to buy a kit from https://www.electrifybike.com/#/ with the open source V20 installed, once a stable version is released that can talk to the 850c controller.

That way the conversion can be ‘plug and play’ and I will have all the necessary cable and software to experiment on a spare motor controller I have for my 36V bike, and to learn how to flash the software for my standard bike.

So when will the stable version of V20 be available?

Perhaps we need some more donations to casainho?
Richard

Click to expand...

Hi, sorry I don't have time to reply inline, but thought I can give you some feedback in general. I'm currently in Nelson riding a Gazelle Cabby cargo bike (with the TSDZ2 running 0.20 and KT-LCD3). 45KG empty.

Almost 3000K so far. Generally riding with two kids and cargo, so bike + kids + me = 180KG. Zero mechanical issues. Stripped the motor a few weeks ago (more from interest because I was installing the temp sensor). TBH in NZ you don't need the temp sensor, unless you are running 500W+ for a long time.

Running Schwalbe Big Ben on the front. Swapped in Sturmey-Archer drum brake on front. Great device, better modulation than disc brakes. 36V TSDZ2 with 10Ah LiPo (Drone) batteries. Nuvinci N360 on rear. Can change down under full power, cannot change up under full power, changes ok at 200-300W. Fantastic having infinite gear selection. Bike came with Shimano 7 speed, bit clunky, think it was dying slowly. I have a 11 speed Alfine on a muscle bike. That can be a bit munchy crunchy even with just me under high load. On a heavy bike with assist it would pop in my opinion. I've heard the 8 speed Shimano is a bit more durable.

If you want a very stable feature rich firmware (now) that is essentially complete, go with the LT-LCD3. Yes there are grand plans for the SW102 and 850C but I fear some time will pass to get very valuable features like SOC tracking, different power modes etc.

Cheers

Thanks for your response to my post. Very Helpful.
I have used NuVinci hub. I have read reports on ebikes of the gears 'drifting' a bit. I don't know if that is a real issue or not.
Yr profile says you are from Aus? Re overheating .. we can get quite high ambient temps in NZ - mid 30's, and can be quite hilly. I guess it all come down to speed really. Crank out the power on a hot day on steep incline in pursuit of speed and something has to give.

Watch out for those logging trucks around the Nelson area! A bakfiet on the open road with those around would give me the willies!
Are you game to try the Takaka Hill? :-/

hego · Dec 14, 2019

Is posible the use of KT-LCD8H instead 850C?

It use the STM32F103RTC6.

Is similary the uController GD32F103RET6 - 850C display?

New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

1 µW

10 GW

10 GW

1 W

10 GW

1 W

10 GW

1 W

10 GW

10 mW

10 GW

1 kW

1 kW

1 kW

10 mW

1 kW

10 GW

1 W

1 mW

10 mW

100 kW

1 µW

10 mW

1 µW

10 mW

Similar threads