Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

"The question is: Even if storage-project owners want to reduce emissions, how can they? How can they know when to charge and when to discharge?"
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"WattTime
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https://www.watttime.org/
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rolled out Automated Emissions Reduction, a consumer-facing program that uses exactly this kind of real-time grid-emissions data to help customers better manage their distributed energy resources (DERs). Then, in May, it announced a program whereby it would use satellites and AI to track real-time emissions data at every power plant in the world, which could enable DER owners the world over to maximize their GHG impact."
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The simpler answer would have been to implement a carbon tax on all sources right where it leaves the ground as is proposed in H.R. 763
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https://citizensclimatelobby.org/energy-innovation-and-carbon-dividend-act/
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so that the market price of the electricity that is generated by gas plants at night wasn't cheaper just because demand is lower.

Continuing on from last weeks fuel-cell news with Doosan's truly incredible 70kilometer long ocean drone flight via fuel-cell technology for emergency transferring of medical gear between islands, https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=89002&start=5400#p1514087

This week Doosan do a milder 20kilometer demonstration.
Doosan Launches Environmental Patrol Demonstration Test Using Hydrogen Fuel Cell Drones in the Nakdong River Basin
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/doosan-launches-environmental-patrol-demonstration-test-using-hydrogen-fuel-cell-drones-in-the-nakdong-river-basin/
Doosan Mobility Innovation’s hydrogen fuel cell drone showed a variety of missions by flying the 20km Nakdong River basin from Gangjeong Boryeongbo to Daegu. It performed a variety of missions with long flights such as emergency evacuation warning broadcasts, oil spill monitoring, transmission tower inspections, and real-time checks of fish ponds.

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Apparently this is a real game-changer for cheap Hydrogen generation out of water...
Scientists find cheaper way to make hydrogen energy out of water
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/scientists-find-cheaper-way-to-make-hydrogen-energy-out-of-water/
An additional benefit is that our nickel-iron electrode can catalyze both the hydrogen and oxygen generation, so not only could we slash the production costs by using Earth-abundant elements, but also the costs of manufacturing one catalyst instead of two."

A quick glance at today's metal prices shows just why this could be the gamechanger needed to speed the transition towards the so-called hydrogen economy. Iron and nickel are priced at $0.13 and $19.65 a kilogram. By contrast, ruthenium, platinum and iridium are priced at $11.77, $42.13 and $69.58 per gram—in other words, thousands of times more expensive.

We've been talking about the hydrogen economy for ages, but this time it looks as though it's really coming.
https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/scientists-find-cheaper-way-make-hydrogen-energy-out-water
^Above is the non-detailed press release statement... here below is the mind-bending extreme detailed document on Nature.com
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-13415-8

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Hydrogen solutions for shipping seems to be incredibly popular
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/schottel-to-propel-worlds-first-hydrogen-ferry/

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If you wondered about those stories of the 3rd world dumping all their plastic garbage in their rivers/ocean seas to make it 'go away' because its cheaper than burrying or burning then here is another video of such actitivy, I see 3-4 garbage trucks dumping their loads in the water... For some reason this type of video footage is senstive, I seen a number of these similar types of video footage but where they cut the video right before the garbage falls into the water, so you never actually see the dirty deed in completion, its incredibly annoying.
https://twitter.com/FabManuelMulas/status/1202891367594307585
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750 Billion Reasons Why Goldman Is Rooting For Greta Thunberg's Success
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/750-billion-reasons-why-goldman-rooting-greta-thunbergs-success
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-goldman-sachs-environment-idUSKBN1YK1U6?taid=5df87266058609000175b35c

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I think one large tech company saw this law suit coming as I saw a headline recently claim they exclusively source all their cobalt from Australia, forget which one.
A landmark legal case has been launched against the world's largest tech companies by Congolese families who say their children were killed or maimed while mining for cobalt used to power smartphones, laptops and electric cars, the Guardian can reveal. Apple, Google, Dell, Microsoft and Tesla have been named as defendants in a lawsuit filed in Washington DC by human rights firm International Rights Advocates on behalf of 14 parents and children from the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC).
https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/19/12/17/0351250/apple-and-google-named-in-us-lawsuit-over-congolese-child-cobalt-mining-deaths?utm_source=slashdot&utm_medium=twitter
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/dec/16/apple-and-google-named-in-us-lawsuit-over-congolese-child-cobalt-mining-deaths


I found a cute kid flying a drone that all the white people haters can dwell apon to accuse of being at fault


But fact is all these celiberaties drive a Tesla, and some of them have been known to tell the general public to "lift their game" in terms of environmental/ethical footprints.
Remember there are over 7,000 cells in your average Tesla, if on average you got a new cell phone every 5 years over an 80 year life time thats only 16 equivalant sized lithium cells used... You are using in the hundreds or even thousands of cell phone equvialant cobalt destroying life times if you buy a few Tesla's in your life time.
Remember the days when celiberaties would get egged for wearing a real fur coat? What ever happened to that kind of thing..
https://www.businessinsider.com/18-celebrities-who-drive-tesla-cars-2016-3?r=AU&IR=T#steven-spielberg-drives-a-model-s-6
https://www.ranker.com/list/celebrities-who-drive-teslas/celebrity-lists




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Usage of "evil" coal globally continues to power-drive higher to all new records of usage. :lol:
Look at it in a postive way, as long as its being burned far far away in other countries the co2 emissions can't possibly affect your local quality of air. Remember when anyone exhales its at 40,000ppm co2 as your body emits about 1.4kilograms of co2 per day which has to be the most fascinating fact about the human body period.
Coal Endures as World's Favorite Fuel for Electricity Generation
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-12-17/coal-endures-as-world-s-favorite-fuel-for-electricity-generation

Coal plants close to being "uninsurable":

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/dec/02/coal-power-becoming-uninsurable-as-firms-refuse-cover

Soon they will only be able to built or operated with the kind of direct government subsidies renewable energy opponents loathe so much.

TheBeastie said:

.....We've been talking about the hydrogen economy for ages, but this time it looks as though it's really coming.....

Click to expand...

We know the technology is developed, and there are multiple applications,..
....BUT very few financial details to show the economic viability of these systems. ??

dude, you absolutely know the h2 economy can only happen once if & when all the lakes & rivers are completely owned by corporations (oil, disney, other satanic entities).

Frank Joey 'hey said:

The World Bank has predicted that by 2025, two-thirds of the world’s population will run short of fresh drinking water.
Given such a grim outlook, it comes as little surprise that Fortune magazine recently defined water as “the oil of the 21st century.”
Poised to capitalize on this crisis are private companies, many of which are multinationals whose tentacles are probing the planet for opportunities to turn the misery of water-starved regions into profits for their executives and stockholders. ...

Click to expand...

https://www.citizen.org/wp-content/uploads/top10-reasonstoopposewaterprivatization.pdf

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/17/us/ohio-exxon-mobil-methane-leak-satellite-climate-change/index.html

Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh said:

dude, you absolutely know the h2 economy can only happen once if & when all the lakes & rivers are completely owned by corporations (oil, disney, other satanic entities).

Click to expand...

Hydrogen is a great idea. But:

1) We don't have any. We have to make it. So it's not really a fuel, more like a storage medium.

2) Right now the cheapest way to make it is by reforming natural gas/methane. And honestly, natural gas is a better fuel/storage medium than hydrogen. It's much safer, easier to handle and ship, and gives you more range. And it's easier to make. And if you really want to run a fuel cell, you can reform natural gas back into hydrogen.

That being said, if we ever get high temperature gas reactors that can do thermal dissociation, we'd get a cheap source of hydrogen. And once there's a cheap source of it, people will have great incentives to solve the storage/shipping/safety problems.

billvon said:

2) Right now the cheapest way to make it is by reforming natural gas/methane. And honestly, natural gas is a better fuel/storage medium than hydrogen. It's much safer, easier to handle and ship, and gives you more range. And it's easier to make. And if you really want to run a fuel cell, you can reform natural gas back into hydrogen.

Click to expand...

Sabatier reactors. But you guys don't have anything useful to say on the topic

cricketo said:

Sabatier reactors. But you guys don't have anything useful to say on the topic

Click to expand...

Well, steam reforming (the Sabatier process goes the other way.) But yeah, I guess I don't have the "correct" perspective on such things . . .

billvon said:

cricketo said:

Sabatier reactors. But you guys don't have anything useful to say on the topic

Click to expand...

Well, steam reforming (the Sabatier process goes the other way.) But yeah, I guess I don't have the "correct" perspective on such things . . .

Click to expand...

I was referring to the second part of the quote - I agree Methane is more convenient, and there is a well-understood process for making it. SpaceX is planning to use it on other planets too, so there may be commercial developments in that space very soon. The question is if anyone (other than NASA) is looking into compact machines that can be used say in a typical household...

https://energyfactor.exxonmobil.com/science-technology/freshly-baked-solar-panels/

Hillhater said:

TheBeastie said:

.....We've been talking about the hydrogen economy for ages, but this time it looks as though it's really coming.....

Click to expand...

We know the technology is developed, and there are multiple applications,..
....BUT very few financial details to show the economic viability of these systems. ??

Click to expand...

Fuel-Cell "TCO" (Total cost of ownership https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_cost_of_ownership ) compared to gasoline/fossil-fuel? Sure Fuel-Cell is more expensive, no argument, but so is pure Lithium Battery EV and Tesla solar+battery home.

I am just posting some of the more interesting projects happening in Fuel-Cell news, but there are new Fuel-Cell projects and most importantly new mass-production fuel-cell factories starting up at a remarkable pace.
https://twitter.com/fuelcellsworks
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/
Nuvera Breaks Ground on Automated Fuel Cell Production Facility in China
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/nuvera-breaks-ground-on-automated-fuel-cell-production-facility-in-china/


When it comes to wind/solar farms its always government and heavy subsidies that have long created these projects and this appears to barely be stopping anywhere in the whole world, comparatively the amount of private industry going the fuel-cell route for heavy industries like large ships/trucks/trains is really quite remarkable and every week I look at the fuel-cell news I get more convinced that Fuel-Cell really will be the dark-horse long-term winner in "green energy".

There are signs on top that Fuel-Cell will have incomparable advantages that aren't available in the pure lithium battery space or the gasoline space like long-distance emissions free-flying drones that can fly for up to 4 hours https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdOdyhNM4uk
[youtube]IdOdyhNM4uk[/youtube]

This kind of stuff is going to propel its self the standard capitalist way.
Victorian unionised Labor government has been spending money on standard lithium battery 25minute drones to watch over crowds and train rail networks during special events days.
https://7news.com.au/sport/horse-racing/police-to-use-drones-extra-officers-to-monitor-melbourne-cup-carnival-crowds-c-531563
https://www.news.com.au/sport/sports-life/melbourne-cup-protests-police-deploy-officers-and-drones-to-counter-demonstrations/news-story/11ab1999c3f262c60a2f504b1f394746

Paying union folks to fly drones would be expensive as even entry-level unionised workers are being paid over $110,000 for a 36-hour working week and about $200k for a larger working hour week.
Labourers on the West Gate Tunnel are earning close to $200,000 a year as the building industry warns that wages on state government infrastructure projects are out of control.
Figures from the Master Builders Association of Victoria show an entry level labourer working a basic 36-hour week would be earning $110,000 per year but for the industry standard 56-hour week, they would earn $195,000.
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/labourers-raking-in-200k-in-west-gate-wage-bonanza-20191017-p531pz.html

So a drone that can fly for many hours straight would be the cheapest part of the drone flying operation, would not matter at all if these drones were $1million dollars each they would be ultimately cheaper long term due to increased continuous operation hours.
The Victorian state Andrews government has been remarkably wasteful as many have heard about the $1billion spent in contracts to not build a well planned new road set by the previous state government, the only reason the road isn't being built was that it was previously contracted with non-unionized companies.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-21/federal-election-east-west-link-victoria-and-canberra-possible/11131572
So for government work etc a fuel-cell drone that can fly for hours straight should take the ENTIRE market because the upfront drone costs are nothing compared to the government emergency worker folks being paid to fly them etc.


But yes, nothing will EVER compare to fossil fuel costs, especially natural gas where a lot of the time you just have to shove a pipe into the ground and you have the energy source on-tap, there will likely NEVER be a way to beat that, especially when you consider how much mining and energy it takes to create lithium cells/solar panels etc.

Total primary energy by source for Netherlands is 91% coal, oil, and natural gas. Coal consumption is stated to have increased from 2011 to 2016.
https://www.ieabioenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/CountryReport2018_Netherlands_final.pdf
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.

.
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NASA's project on CO2 capture and conversion to Methane :

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20120016419.pdf

What ever happened to Vacuum energy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJKLFmCvr7k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsPLmb6gAdw

His experiment. " Suppose you are standing on a bus and it suddenly takes off. You fall backward". He says "because you have just run into a wall of vacuum energy".

I have been saving a few interesting reports in energy lately for the "next page" of this thread... But since HillHater/others have not been on this thread to argue if co2 emissions is linked with climate-change which strictly speaking is not meant to part of this thread, then I guess I may as well post a 3rd time for a thread page.

When I first saw this newly uploaded video on the "gordonmcdowell" nuclear YouTube page I was kind of against the idea,
It appears the "fusion" guys have become interested in a lot of the science/parts of the Molten Salt Fission nuclear reactor technology.
The reason to be hesitant about this is that Fusion is more "whacky unproven"/"yet to yield real results", in the science of generating energy, compared to nuclear MSR which has been proven
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ORNL_Alvin_Weinberg_MSRE_6Kh.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten-Salt_Reactor_Experiment#Operation

But all up it does seem like some pretty interesting projects/ideas are being spawned out of it all...
Molten-Salt Fusion Reactors and Molten-Salt Fission Reactors
https://youtu.be/7Yww1AwXf_s
[youtube]7Yww1AwXf_s[/youtube]

Fuel Cells they were useful to distract the public while EV's were being smashed. Fuel Cells are gimmicks, if you forgot it is an EV with a generator on board. So how does it replace EV's?

TheBeastie said:

..... But since HillHater/others have not been on this thread to argue if co2 emissions is linked with climate-change which strictly speaking is not meant to part of this thread, then I guess I may as well post a 3rd time for a thread page.
......

Click to expand...

...Things have been a little “hot” around here lately !
I have been dodging bushfires, no power , no internet, no phones, no roads out ! ... one hell of a Xmas and new year !
Now we have a bunch of F..wit Politicians and instant climate experts claiming that climate change ( increase in CO2 etc) is the cause of unstoppable forrest inferno’s, rather than the bleedin’ obvious RESULT of such fires.

Hillhater said:

Now we have a bunch of F..wit Politicians and instant climate experts claiming that climate change ( increase in CO2 etc) is the cause of unstoppable forrest inferno’s, rather than the bleedin’ obvious RESULT of such fires.

Click to expand...

Its called a 'Personal Agenda.' Its all about what mileage they can benefit from if they lie to you. As Rahm Emanuel said, "Never let a perfectly good crisis go to waste."

Hillhater said:

...Things have been a little “hot” around here lately !
I have been dodging bushfires, no power , no internet, no phones, no roads out ! ... one hell of a Xmas and new year !
Now we have a bunch of F..wit Politicians and instant climate experts claiming that climate change ( increase in CO2 etc) is the cause of unstoppable forrest inferno’s, rather than the bleedin’ obvious RESULT of such fires.

Click to expand...

Sorry to hear about your experience mate, all the best for 2020 getting better. We got a tiny taste of the fire fallout over here and it really brought it home how awful it must be for Aus.

On topic, I would argue that CO2 is both a contributing factor and an output of the fires. A huge reason why everything's going up so easily is lack of water, that's a specific predicted outcome from climate modelling. Increased rainfall variability causes both catastrophic drought and flooding, worsening consequences from the natural fire cycle. That combined with some particularly incompetent government who dramatically reduced front line fire prevention

Ohbse said:

.... I would argue that CO2 is both a contributing factor and an output of the fires. A huge reason why everything's going up so easily is lack of water, that's a specific predicted outcome from climate modelling. Increased rainfall variability causes both catastrophic drought and flooding, worsening consequences from the natural fire cycle. That combined with some particularly incompetent government who dramatically reduced front line fire prevention

Click to expand...

If there is one thing that most folk know about Oz , its that it is a land renowned for its drought, fire, and floods !
The current drought and temperatures are no more extreme than those previously experienced.
If you check where the main bushfires are/were , youwill find they are mostly East coast NSW and Victoria ,...not areas that are currently subject to extreme drought
The common comment from those at the front line ( not the Pollies or Scientists !), is that the main difference now is the “fuel load” available to the fires in the Parks and State forests..much of it “green” (but still highly flamable ), live undergrowth....and v strong variable winds.
The Country has experienced much worse, more extensive, more damaging, more deadly, bushfires in the past ,...way before CO2 levels became the focus of idle minds.

Hillhater said:

The current drought and temperatures are no more extreme than those previously experienced.

Click to expand...

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/current/annual/aus/

But yeah, they're just a bunch of pinkos.

jonescg said:

........
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/current/annual/aus/
But yeah, they're just a bunch of pinkos.

Click to expand...

...Ahhh ! , yes the BOM.....Bureau Of Misinformation !.....never known to adjust the data to suit the required outcome ! much,..
Ever wondered why the BOM have altered historic temperature records DOWNWARDS.. twice ! ..
...and refuse to disclose why or what methodology they used ?
Why did they pick 1961 - 1990 as the reference period ? ( a notably cool period)
Remember the old caution...
....” there are Lies, damm Lies, and Statistics !”

2019 was Australia's warmest year on record. Australia's area-averaged mean temperature for 2019 was 1.52 °C above the 1961–1990 average, ......
...... The national temperature dataset commences in 1910.

Click to expand...

...you can work wonders with “Averages”. !
And How convenient that the BOM records only start in 1910 ?...when temp and rainfall data was being recorded from the mid 1800,s ...but then that would have included the “millenial drought” of 1896-1902 and other similar events pre 1900.
But , as i said the drought and temperatures are no more extreme than have been previously experienced.
The 1939 drought was much worse and temperatures were higher than those seen during these recent fires.
..(much of the fires rapid advance was under the Southerly change winds which were often below 20C)
But, if you really think that 1-2 C can make the difference between a local burn, and an uncontrollable bushfire, then OK... but there are bigger factors at play to make that big difference

TheBeastie said:

Paying union folks to fly drones would be expensive as even entry-level unionised workers are being paid over $110,000 for a 36-hour working week and about $200k for a larger working hour week.
Labourers on the West Gate Tunnel are earning close to $200,000 a year as the building industry warns that wages on state government infrastructure projects are out of control.
Figures from the Master Builders Association of Victoria show an entry level labourer working a basic 36-hour week would be earning $110,000 per year but for the industry standard 56-hour week, they would earn $195,000.
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/labourers-raking-in-200k-in-west-gate-wage-bonanza-20191017-p531pz.html

So a drone that can fly for many hours straight would be the cheapest part of the drone flying operation, would not matter at all if these drones were $1million dollars each they would be ultimately cheaper long term due to increased continuous operation hours.
The Victorian state Andrews government has been remarkably wasteful as many have heard about the $1billion spent in contracts to not build a well planned new road set by the previous state government, the only reason the road isn't being built was that it was previously contracted with non-unionized companies.

Click to expand...

Why would you quote labourers on a certain project? Are you suggesting they're laboring to get them off the ground? </dad joke>
Those are not the staff that are flying the drones for your events and the like.

There's perfectly good wage information available: https://cpsuvic.org/member/vps-wage-rates.php

Wages start at 47K per year, not 110K. They won't get bonus pay for working a longer week in most instances also, they'll probably earn FLEX or TOIL (time off in lieu).

Liberal or labour it makes zero difference, these are the negotiated wages with the unions for your standard public service staff, which most likely includes your drone pilots. Frankly though, it's highly likely such operations would get outsourced and cost even more money.

No matter what drone/engine tech is used, people cost money, yes.
That's certainly one of the reasons why manufacturing in this country is so shafted, we aren't cheap to hire.