Tesla vs Porsche

Gotta love the advances competition brings. Plaid mode? Perhaps Tesla should name the modes Warp 1, Warp 2, etc.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/18/cars/elon-musk-tesla-plaid-mode/index.html

the only way they have a prayer of beating Tesla
[youtube]YJ9nKHPMGhc[/youtube]

Whether they do well, or only sell a handful...I appreciate seeing the results of a new configuration. I believe Porsche and the Koenigsegg Regera both use around 800V, instead of the 400V-ish that Tesla uses...

any effort made by the ICE industry is going to be half hearted. their business model depends on having a fleet of ICE cars out there to sell service and parts while they sell their new cars at a loss. whether they go forward, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. it will be pretty difficult for any major auto company to produce compelling ev's at a competitive price with Tesla and have enough profit margin to offset the loss of their core businesses.

If Porsche doesn't think they can win they don't get in the ring. Their turbo era cars are the stuff of legends and the 959 is still sophisticated tech more than 30 years after it was released, now they've dipped a toe in the EV pond you can be pretty sure they're going to do the same thing with magic smoke.

[youtube]MlI1_P8V5dA[/youtube]

Gotta be some hardy-as-hell parts to handle 800v For hundreds of thousands of miles.

A Porsche will undoubtedly have a nicer "feel" and fit and finish than the upcoming Tesla, but their astronomical price and Electrify America only being on the coasts I think will really keep them from spreading much. Heck, for one Taycan Turbo you can get 2 P100D Model S's and have like, $30,000 left over!

j3tch1u said:

..... it will be pretty difficult for any major auto company to produce compelling ev's at a competitive price with Tesla and have enough profit margin to offset the loss of their core businesses.

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Tesla are living proof of how difficult it is for even a fully committed manufacturer to return a profit on EV sales, ....at any price !
..infact , impossible without government subsidies and “carbon Credits”.

In the USA all federal subsidies have expired. So according to your logic Tesla will be bankrupt and out of business by when exactly?

Hillhater said:

j3tch1u said:

..... it will be pretty difficult for any major auto company to produce compelling ev's at a competitive price with Tesla and have enough profit margin to offset the loss of their core businesses.

Click to expand...

Tesla are living proof of how difficult it is for even a fully committed manufacturer to return a profit on EV sales, ....at any price !
..infact , impossible without government subsidies and “carbon Credits”.

Click to expand...

How about you and I each put $5k in an escrow account. If Tesla doesn't sell over a half million cars worldwide, by the end of 2020, the losers $5k goes to the winners charity of choice?

Surely a person with such strong convictions and opinions is willing to put some skin in the game?

i love porsches and i still have a 993 but at this point it's not even about who can build the "killer" car. it's about the business model. i say half hearted in terms of allocation of resources. tesla has all kinds of levers they can pull to monetize new revenue streams (insurance, software updates, charging, ride sharing, solar, energy storage, etc). once they have a big enough fleet they can start making their cars loss leaders (ie. model 2). they are applying 1st principles to the economics. oth, other auto makers are playing a dangerous balancing act cannibalizing their lucrative business of selling parts for a dwindling fleet of obfuscated machines. this will continue until their free cash flow and balance sheets dry up. in the meantime, we may see some nice new products, but they are mainly for show and not sales in any meaningful volume. to compound the problem, fund raising will be difficult (as evidenced by bailouts) as the conflicts in their business become more apparent to investors. this perfect storm couldnt possibly get any worse for them.

stan.distortion said:

If Porsche doesn't think they can win they don't get in the ring. Their turbo era cars are the stuff of legends and the 959 is still sophisticated tech more than 30 years after it was released, now they've dipped a toe in the EV pond you can be pretty sure they're going to do the same thing with magic smoke.

Click to expand...

you can win the battle and still lose the war

st35326 said:

Hillhater said:

Tesla are living proof of how difficult it is for even a fully committed manufacturer to return a profit on EV sales, ....at any price !
..infact , impossible without government subsidies and “carbon Credits”.

Click to expand...

How about you and I each put $5k in an escrow account. If Tesla doesn't sell over a half million cars worldwide, by the end of 2020, the losers $5k goes to the winners charity of choice?

Click to expand...

Odd, why change the metric ? The comment was about PROFIT ...not sales volume !
....and Tesla have NEVER returned an annual profit.!

In the USA all federal subsidies have expired. ...

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Tesla recieved over $500m in “ZEV” credits in 2019 ......and still did not make a profit !

j3tch1u said:

.... tesla has all kinds of levers they can pull to monetize new revenue streams (insurance, software updates, charging, ride sharing, solar, energy storage, etc). once they have a big enough fleet they can start making their cars loss leaders (ie. model 2). .....

Click to expand...

Technically, every car Tesla has made has been a “ loss leaders”.....in as much as they have never recovered their production costs and their main purpose has been to attract more investment and share value, to the Tesla business.

j3tch1u said:

stan.distortion said:

If Porsche doesn't think they can win they don't get in the ring. Their turbo era cars are the stuff of legends and the 959 is still sophisticated tech more than 30 years after it was released, now they've dipped a toe in the EV pond you can be pretty sure they're going to do the same thing with magic smoke.

Click to expand...

you can win the battle and still lose the war

Click to expand...

Which battle are we talking about here? Tesla will beat Porsche on sales volume, no doubt about that because Porsche has never been a high volume manufacturer but I don't think Tesla will be able to keep up with Porsche in the performance race. Performance is Porsches reason for existing, VAG group has other brands for sales volume (VW, Audi etc.).

EDIT: My bad, I didn't notice this is in the EV business section. As far as business goes the thread title doesn't work because Porsche isn't a separate company any more, it's part of VAG and anyone that thinks an independent manufacturer has a chance of becoming bigger than VAG anytime in the next decade is dreaming.

Don't get me wrong, Tesla simply surviving this long in the US auto industry is an incredible achievement. The big 3 don't tolerate others trying to get into "their" market and to not only survive but become a globally respected brand in such a cut throat industry is a big deal but they wont become one of the big players themselves with just a single brand, there's going to be at least half a dozen offshoots and mergers before they're playing at that level.

stan.distortion said:

Which battle are we talking about here? Tesla will beat Porsche on sales volume, no doubt about that because Porsche has never been a high volume manufacturer but I don't think Tesla will be able to keep up with Porsche in the performance race. Performance is Porsches reason for existing, VAG group has other brands for sales volume (VW, Audi etc.).

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that is what i am saying. the other auto makers may come out with a car that beats tesla in performance (battle) but lose their profitability during this tectonic paradigm shift (war). performance isnt even important. the war is going to be fought by software, data, batteries and new disruptive downstream businesses. of course, this isn't gonna happen overnight. auto companies still have a lot of money in their coffers.

elon knew the gig was up years ago when he first started tesla and discovered that there hasnt been a successful entrant in 80 years because car companies maintained their monopoly by capitalizing on their fleet of obfuscated machines breaking down. he crunched the numbers and knew that they also wouldnt easily be able to turn their business models around. his 1st principles in action.