Best Value fast ebike for my commute?

cbr shadow said:

Yep Facebook. I'll be able to secure the bike indoors and charge the battery for the ride home.

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You'll likely see other forum member ebikes there. I recall at least 2 or 3 threads last year of new members, building bikes to get there from other parts of the bay area, with some pretty long and challenging commutes. Good luck and stay safe!

Thanks!
Also really appreciate the responses so far.

So it sounds like my best bet is going to be a mountain bike with dual suspension (aluminum rather than carbon) and a direct drive 1000w hub motor, plus a 52v battery with at least 17.5ah capacity, and a controller to go with it.
So which motor should I go with, and are there 'kits' that would be somewhat simple to install? Do the motors typically come laced in a wheel already, or will I need to buy a rim+spokes and have it built by my wheel builder?

Another question: do these hub motors typically come with built-in controllers? That would be nice so I'd have less wiring and less components mounted to the bike frame.

I noticed the last time i looked ar em3ev. I have two of their batteries. They have controllers built into some of the batteries. Most kits come laced to a wheel. Also i think em3ev will lace to a custom wheel.

cbr shadow said:

Another question: do these hub motors typically come with built-in controllers? That would be nice so I'd have less wiring and less components mounted to the bike frame.

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Most folks wouldn't recommend a hub with a built in controller, since both the motor and controller produce heat, which isn't easily dissipated. Since you're going the non-mid drive route, that frees up some dollars, so you could splurge on a Phaserunner controller, which is tiny, has FOC, and many features; plus a Cycle Analyst 3 display to go with it.

E-HP said:

cbr shadow said:

Another question: do these hub motors typically come with built-in controllers? That would be nice so I'd have less wiring and less components mounted to the bike frame.

Click to expand...

Most folks wouldn't recommend a hub with a built in controller, since both the motor and controller produce heat, which isn't easily dissipated. Since you're going the non-mid drive route, that frees up some dollars, so you could splurge on a Phaserunner controller, which is tiny, has FOC, and many features; plus a Cycle Analyst 3 display to go with it.

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Nice I'll look into those Phaserunner controllers and Cycle Analyst 3 displays.
What motor would you recommend? I'd like:
1) Reliable
2) Quiet
3) Easy to install/setup
4) Ability to increase voltage above 52v (with new controller) in the future if I want more speed/power

Since you have a decent budget, I’d get the leaf bike 1500w motor since it has a good reputation and is very efficient.

Any direct drive motor will be dead silent with an FOC/sine wave controller like the phaserunner. Motors will handle just about any voltage, but it’s a matter of how long. If you have an 80% efficient motor and put 5000w into it, 1000w would go to heat, which you’d need to continuously shed, or the motor will heat up. So good for short bursts, but will meltdown if run for a long period if you can’t shed it fast enough. Higher power rated motors will handle the power longer (usually with a weight penalty). There are ways to shed more heat from a motor so you don’t have to get a bigger heavier motor, such as adding Statorade, or cooling fins, with a lower weight penalty.

You can use the Grin ebike motor simulator to see how various motors perform, and whether overheating is an issue.

Except for the speed (my motor is slow wound), my cheap $140 eBay motor would easily do that commute both directions twice with a 20Ah battery, but I pedal and keep it under 20.


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E-HP said:

Since you have a decent budget, I’d get the leaf bike 1500w motor since it has a good reputation and is very efficient.

Any direct drive motor will be dead silent with an FOC/sine wave controller like the phaserunner. Motors will handle just about any voltage, but it’s a matter of how long. If you have an 80% efficient motor and put 5000w into it, 1000w would go to heat, which you’d need to continuously shed, or the motor will heat up. So good for short bursts, but will meltdown if run for a long period if you can’t shed it fast enough. Higher power rated motors will handle the power longer (usually with a weight penalty). There are ways to shed more heat from a motor so you don’t have to get a bigger heavier motor, such as adding Statorade, or cooling fins, with a lower weight penalty.

You can use the Grin ebike motor simulator to see how various motors perform, and whether overheating is an issue.

Except for the speed (my motor is slow wound), my cheap $140 eBay motor would easily do that commute both directions twice with a 20Ah battery, but I pedal and keep it under 20.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Great info! Just a couple questions:
1) Is the main advantage of getting a phaserunner controller that it's smaller in size and has technology to make the motor quieter?
2) Does the 1500W motor you mentioned above (LeafBike) come available without the controller? I see the "kit" without battery is about $385 which seems super reasonable.

Thanks!

You must remember that all those DD kits covinently forget about thermal protection.
Say you have hilly commute , so you risk burning your motor every ride.
There no way around it
Controller need to read from motor to protect from oveheating .
read motor temp outside of motor?
If you dont burn motor for 20000 miles it means you use it with large marging of safety
meaning you do not use full potential of your motor, motor underused to me.

miro13car said:

You must remember that all those DD kits covinently forget about thermal protection.
Say you have hilly commute , so you risk burning your motor every ride.
There no way around it
Controller need to read from motor to protect from oveheating .
read motor temp outside of motor?
If you dont burn motor for 20000 miles it means you use it with large marging of safety
meaning you do not use full potential of your motor, motor underused to me.

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I don't 100% follow what you mean, but it sounds like you're saying that if I get a 1500W motor and run it at 2500W constant, the motor will overheat. When you say the "kits" forget about thermal protection, are you saying the controllers that they provide are underpowered, or that the motor rating isn't what it should be run at constantly?
Is the solution to get a motor that is oversized?
My route is flat, but I do plan on going fast for about 13 or 14 miles.

cbr shadow said:

Great info! Just a couple questions:
1) Is the main advantage of getting a phaserunner controller that it's smaller in size and has technology to make the motor quieter?
2) Does the 1500W motor you mentioned above (LeafBike) come available without the controller? I see the "kit" without battery is about $385 which seems super reasonable.

Thanks!

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The advantages of the phaserunner are that it's small, has a wide operating voltage range (flexible so that you can run different voltages, or upgrade), uses FOC so efficient through the rpm range, proportional regen, and field weakening (it does more, but these are the feature I would want it for). It can also run sensorless.

My understanding is that the leaf motor is great, but the kits (i.e. controller) isn't the best, and support is so-so. This is based on the posts here on ES. I recall when I was thinking of getting one, the shipping was pretty high.

If you get the leafbike motor with a temp probe, the phaserunner has thermal rollback to cut power to the motor to keep it from overheating too.

Falco E-Motors seems to have the only hub motor with a good controller inside of it. Others have failed but the Falco's are used by many of the Tadpole Trike people who put many miles on their comfortable bikes.
If you want to try one out ( to rent for a while to see if you want one ) I have one you can try . It is a 29 er wheel which is also 700c , and 36 volt battery .
PM me if you are interested, I have one that I am thinking about selling,

https://falcoemotors.com/

Hub motors are heavy so PM me as to which bikes have a good enough rear swing arm to handle a hub motor.

E-HP said:

cbr shadow said:

Great info! Just a couple questions:
1) Is the main advantage of getting a phaserunner controller that it's smaller in size and has technology to make the motor quieter?
2) Does the 1500W motor you mentioned above (LeafBike) come available without the controller? I see the "kit" without battery is about $385 which seems super reasonable.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

The advantages of the phaserunner are that it's small, has a wide operating voltage range (flexible so that you can run different voltages, or upgrade), uses FOC so efficient through the rpm range, proportional regen, and field weakening (it does more, but these are the feature I would want it for). It can also run sensorless.

My understanding is that the leaf motor is great, but the kits (i.e. controller) isn't the best, and support is so-so. This is based on the posts here on ES. I recall when I was thinking of getting one, the shipping was pretty high.

If you get the leafbike motor with a temp probe, the phaserunner has thermal rollback to cut power to the motor to keep it from overheating too.

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That all good to know - thanks!
Do you know if the leafmotor is offered as a standalone motor+wheel rather than a whole kit, or is it best to order the kit and just not use their controller, but use everything else? Are the connectors usually pretty standard?

cbr shadow said:

Do you know if the leafmotor is offered as a standalone motor+wheel rather than a whole kit, or is it best to order the kit and just not use their controller, but use everything else? Are the connectors usually pretty standard?

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Yes, just choose your rim size and cassette vs freewheel:

https://www.leafbike.com/products/e-bike-hub-motor/gearless-20-24-26-700c-28-29-inch/c-19/

Well not supposed to shill here.

But there are two really excellent kit vendors in north America. One pays for this forums costs, Grin Technologies. Grin has lead the charge to develop e bike kits to new levels for more than a decade. He's in Canada. Also there is a vendor in Pennsylvania that I used to work for before I fully retired. He puts out a basic kit that suits the needs of the basic commuter, or less technical inclined enthusiast. E-BikeKit. EBK kits have a very neat wiring system, featuring a functional but simple display. My bikes, I still really prefer a Grin cycle analyst display. But EBK kits have some nice features, nearly waterproof, minimal wires.

Both companies have very good CS, unlike the cheaper priced options such as you see on ebay.

Put the kit on a decent 26" bike. Mtb, FS mtb, or commuter bike, with some rise and sweep on the bars. But you know, as a cyclist, to buy a bike that fits you. Don't buy a teen size bike for the price. All you will ever need is the highest gear, so 7 or 8 speeds is more than enough.

dogman dan said:

All you will ever need is the highest gear, so 7 or 8 speeds is more than enough.

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Yup, I'm pretty sure I haven't shifted in about 5 months or so. I only shift if I'm climbing above 15% or so, in order to keep my speed up, but short of that, higher gears work better for maintaining speed on hills, at least for me. A decent sized hub motor is like driving an automatic, you end up shifting just a little bit more with a hub that you'd shift to low in your car. A mid-drive that uses the bike's drivetrain is like driving a stick shift, since shifting is necessary to keep the drivetrain and motor happy.

It looks like the "Vector Storm" frame will suit my needs nicely, but I'm wondering if there's enough space in the frame for the battery size that I'd need.
Battery-size max dimensions: 44.5cm x 11.5cm x 9cm

Can i get a good 52v 20ah battery in those dimenisons? Will the leafmotor 1500w motor fit in this frame well (dropout size)?
This looks like a good solution if I can get the power out of it that I need. What're your thoughts?

Yes that motor has a dropout spacing of 135mm,
and
The Vector Light frame has the same spacing . ( unless you order it with the fat bike swing arm instead of the regular swingarm )

Yes those types of frames are made mostly for rear hub motors. only a few mid drives would work, and those that do are too low performance mid-drives to even bother with since the whole reason for a e-bike specific frame is for faster speeds and space to install larger than 10-12 amp hour packs.

Only the Vendor that sells you the battery pack can tell you if there is enough space inside of that frame . Be aware that the pack enters from the bottom on that frame.
Keep in mid also that you will need the right cells when ordering a pack made from 18650 cells. You need high discharge cells, ( Not ) higher capacity cells.
If you want to be assured you can put high power into any hub many people use lipo's for high power / high amps like over 30-40 amps .
They are what most of the High Power and Faster Riders use on their e-bikes. There is allot of research on your part if you want to use Lipo's. The battery section has some threads on it. They are for evening reading , too long to do on your breaks at work.
I was once against them , but now use them all the time.

Cbr shadow
Controller the best in the world needs input about motor temp. To limit power, right?
Cheap kit manufacturers know that you can overheat motor going uphill.
It can happen in tens of scenarios, long mild hill, short steep hill, you name it.
Driving your ebike with big motor would keep you from burning it.
But why do it like that?
Why carry the weight?
Is it not much better to use motor at its rated power with thermal protection?
FALCO motor cannot be destroyed even on steepest hill , themal protection kicks in reducing power
not cutting off power like with chep primitive drives.
That why it costs money.

cbr...what did you end up doing?

I can vouch for the good info that dogman dan and mad rhino give...I'd follow their advice .

For batteries, I'd order from EM3ev...they are the best.

As far as motors...two options that you might want to consider are the RH212 from Grin Tech and the Leaf motors. They are very similar as far as the power they can handle. You can also use low viscosity automatic transmission fluid as opposed to stator aid...it is a lot less expensive and works almost as good.

Grin Tech also sells the DD45 which can handle more power and isn't but a few dollars more than the RH212.

Nice thing about Grin Tech is their customer service is the best...if you need help down the road, they will be there for you.

Voilamart 1,500 watt 35mm stator kit and ongoing project 236.00 with shipping. I replaced controller with lyen 72v 30amp 9fet controller. Still working out the bugs as it at 12amp I think it's the three speed switch. I do have a edge motor 35mm with reglued mangets as edge motors give up magnets. It has cooling fins and a 18 fet BT controller set at 45 amps. Yes has temp sensor but not hooked up. Just use my hand aka JohnCR motor and controller thermometer.
It's a D.D. motor cheap as can run with stock controller at 52volts.