Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

3DTOPO · Apr 12, 2020

Congrats on getting your new bike up and running Rix! Sounds sweet, is it the special edition? Can't believe it took so long, it's been months since you got it, no?

The problem I have with Offroader's posts are that he (1) assumes the vast majority of people don't use the Sur Ron for real off-road use and (2) that everyone is better off following "his example" by running general use tires. I also had issue with him lecturing people about tire weight when his tires weigh almost twice as mine.

As for (1), I have seen more off-road tires than anything else discussed here, everyone I know with a Sur Ron uses it for off-road use, and the vast majority of YT videos are off-road. I don't think there is anyway to know what percent using it off-road, but I am sure there is a considerable number of them.

(2) I just don't think there is such thing as a best tire for everyone. Everyone for the most part has unique conditions and riding styles where they live. Some people are best off with a sand tire, some off-road, some moto, some mud, some multi-use, etc.

3DTOPO · Apr 12, 2020

Rix said:
If I lived and rode where 3DTopo lives, I would never run anything but a the M403, which BTW, has been discontinued, now we got the M203 which is a slightly softer rubber compound, or the X20 and X30. Of course there are knobby tires out there by other Tire MFG we can dip into for knobby options.

Note that I am running a Maxxis Maxxcross IT 70/100-19 on the front now, and the M403 on the rear wheel still.

The Maxxis is very similar, but slightly wider. In fact I had to shave a sliver off the side knobs for it to fit in the fork - it's not possible to get any wider with the stock fork. 8)

I changed to the Maxxis when I converted the front to tubeless. I think I must had damaged the M403's bead after changing far more tubes than I would have liked, and was preventing me from getting a proper seal. But haven't had to add air to it once in the last year now.

Kauaiguy · Apr 12, 2020

I’m running the ProTrac 70/100x19 tire front and back in mud to dry conditions on Kauai.Last a long time ,300 miles without hardly any wear.I also have the Maxxis tire,but as you said the knobs rub the front forks,and didn’t like it as much as the ProTrac .Got them on Amazon with tube for $47.95 delivered.

Rix · Apr 12, 2020

3DTOPO said:
Rix said:

If I lived and rode where 3DTopo lives, I would never run anything but a the M403, which BTW, has been discontinued, now we got the M203 which is a slightly softer rubber compound, or the X20 and X30. Of course there are knobby tires out there by other Tire MFG we can dip into for knobby options.

Click to expand...

Note that I am running a Maxxis Maxxcross IT 70/100-19 on the front now, and the M403 on the rear wheel still.

The Maxxis is very similar, but slightly wider. In fact I had to shave a sliver off the side knobs for it to fit in the fork - it's not possible to get any wider with the stock fork. 8)

I changed to the Maxxis when I converted the front to tubeless. I think I must had damaged the M403's bead after changing far more tubes than I would have liked, and was preventing me from getting a proper seal. But haven't had to add air to it once in the last year now.

I ran the IT briefly on the rear because it was slightly wider profile than the M403, It didn't perform any better for me, and when I compared it to my hill climbing with the M403 on the rear, I cam up yards shorter suggesting less traction in the soft sand?. BTW, you are right. You said I would like the Sinwave controller with the throttle regen better than the original and I disagreed. Well, I like this controller way better.

Offroader · Apr 12, 2020

3DTOPO said:
Congrats on getting your new bike up and running Rix! Sounds sweet, is it the special edition? Can't believe it took so long, it's been months since you got it, no?

The problem I have with Offroader's posts are that he (1) assumes the vast majority of people don't use the Sur Ron for real off-road use and (2) that everyone is better off following "his example" by running general use tires. I also had issue with him lecturing people about tire weight when his tires weigh almost twice as mine.

As for (1), I have seen more off-road tires than anything else discussed here, everyone I know with a Sur Ron uses it for off-road use, and the vast majority of YT videos are off-road. I don't think there is anyway to know what percent using it off-road, but I am sure there is a considerable number of them.

(2) I just don't think there is such thing as a best tire for everyone. Everyone for the most part has unique conditions and riding styles where they live. Some people are best off with a sand tire, some off-road, some moto, some mud, some multi-use, etc.

This really isn't true, I never really said this is the best tire for everyone. It was always in the context of someone who uses the bike both on and offroad. If this is stated otherwise please send a link to the post where I said that this was the best tire without making it known that this was the best for on-road and off-road use in the context the entire post was typed in. Trials tire gives decent off-road riding, while not wearing the knobs away super fast on the street.

I did say that the 18x3.00 is the best size to use for a direct match in size to the 19x2.75 tire on the front, and this also is a direct match in size to the 19x2.75 rear tire it is replacing.

I do think that most sur-ron owners ride both on and off-road. They have many people who ride just on the street and want street legal bikes. Most people on this forum don't seem to ride much hard core off-road. I was actually one of only few people who used footpegs on the hub motor bike because of the better off-road performance, yet nobody wanted to switch their pedals for them.

I doubt all of a sudden endless-sphere got an influx of only off-road sur-ron riders. Most were from hub motor bikes and most ride on the street or street/ off road mix.

Lets try and find how many people actually ride mostly only off-road, I bet there are only a few here that do that.

We have to consider most sur-ron owners ride on the street and knobby tires may not make the best street tires. That is why trials tires is a good recommendation. If you ride street only, then honestly just keep your stock tires, the knobs will wear away but you can probably get another 2000 miles out of the tire.

There is nothing wrong with making generalizations also. We can't sit here and type about all the niche things people ride in for convenience sake. If you ride only in sand, or only in mud, then you should know what works best for you.

Offroader · Apr 12, 2020

Take a look at this bike the 2020 KTM E-XC.

Watch the video and look at him riding this bike off-road. Then he can easily take this bike on the street without wearing away the tires. Now tell me why I shouldn't say these type of tires are not the best for most people who who ride a combination of on-road and off-road. Imagine if that bike had expensive knobby tires and he had to ride this bike on the street, he would wear them away just like I wore out my sur-ron tires in 500 miles on the rear.

[youtube]50WK8aAB2Do[/youtube]

Nice to see they are running a similar tire setup to mine. These are actually 18x4" tires on the rear, but take a look at the shock and fork, these are not bicycle forks but real motorcycle suspension to deal with the extra weight. Tire looks to be a trials type of tire very similar to what I'm running.

I kind of like the fact that unbeknownst to me until today that KTM has chosen a very similar style tires to what I seemed as optimal for myself. KTM has lots of engineers to pick suitable tires.

This bike is capable of putting out 18KW of power, compare that to 4K-5K watts from the sur-ron.

KTM E-XC bike and my bike in below pictures.
KTM are using 18x4" on the rear 21x2.75" on the front
Both bikes are running the same diameter front and rear tires

My bike uses 18x3.00 on rear, 19x2.75 on front

Rix · Apr 12, 2020

Offroader said:
Take a look at this bike the 2020 KTM E-XC.

[youtube]50WK8aAB2Do[/youtube]

Nice to see they are running a similar tire setup to mine. These are actually 4" tires on the rear, but take a look at the shock and fork, these are not bicycle forks but real motorcycle suspension to deal with the extra weight. Tire looks to be a trials type of tire very similar to what I'm running.

I kind of like the fact that unbeknownst to me until today that KTM has chosen a very similar style tires to what I seemed as optimal for myself. KTM has lots of engineers to pick suitable tires.

This bike is capable of putting out 18KW of power, compare that to 4K-5K watts from the sur-ron.

KTM E-XC bike and my bike in below pictures.

I love the 2020 KTM Eride. Just sold my Alta Redshift EXR. So depressed as I was having post total knee surgery knee issues which prompted the sale. Now that thats resolved, I may end up with a KTM as the Alta is no more. As far as my SurRon goes, I got it running and am thinking of running a 17x1.85" rim with a shinko 308 3.50-17 tire. I probably has the same OD as your 3.00-18, but wider. Doing the research now and ordered a 64T rear sprocket from Motomoto just in case I go that big.

Ttwinsupra · Apr 12, 2020

Anyone know who made these seat extensions? I cant get ahold of the person who was selling the bike to ask, and i cant see the makers mark clearly in pictures, i searched Google but couldn't find anything... im pretty sure this will help with fitment for me alot.

3DTOPO · Apr 12, 2020

Rix said:
As far as my SurRon goes, I got it running and am thinking of running a 17x1.85" rim with a shinko 308 3.50-17 tire. I probably has the same OD as your 3.00-18, but wider. Doing the research now and ordered a 64T rear sprocket from Motomoto just in case I go that big.

According to Offroader, you do not want to run a 3.5" tire in the rear! :lol:

Offroader said:
I really can't see why you would want to use a 3.5" tire on the Sur-Ron

3DTOPO · Apr 12, 2020

Offroader said:
This really isn't true, I never really said this is the best tire for everyone. It was always in the context of someone who uses the bike both on and offroad.

Wrong. You have said it several times, and not in that context:

Offroader said:
Rix, I have an 18x3.00 Shinko 241 tire. That really is probably the best tire for this bike. I do like the stock tire, but it wears away

Offroader said:
I'm thinking this may be the perfect tire for the rear of a Sur-Ron, longer lasting on paverment, soft compound, good grip, thick and long knobs.

Offroader said:
I'm speaking for what 90% of us sur-ron owners will ride in and I think my recommendations are worth for everyone to hear.

Offroader said:
I do think that most sur-ron owners ride both on and off-road.

Is that just a wild hunch? Or is that based on some kind of statistics rooted in reality?

Offroader said:
I doubt all of a sudden endless-sphere got an influx of only off-road sur-ron riders.

I didn’t realize we were only talking about ES Sur Ron riders.

Offroader said:
Lets try and find how many people actually ride mostly only off-road, I bet there are only a few here that do that.

I have a better idea. How about people decide for themselves what is best for them?

Offroader said:
If you ride only in sand, or only in mud, then you should know what works best for you.

How about it doesn’t matter what you ride in, use what works best for you?

efMX Trials Electric Freeride · Apr 12, 2020

Ttwinsupra said:
received_901288840308511.jpegreceived_240145610514270.jpeg

Anyone know who made these seat extensions? I cant get ahold of the person who was selling the bike to ask, and i cant see the makers mark clearly in pictures, i searched Google but couldn't find anything... im pretty sure this will help with fitment for me alot.

not sure who made the seat riser plates in the pics, but if you can't find those.. I think surronshop.com and surrontuning.com , sell seat risers..

Offroader · Apr 12, 2020

3DTOPO said:
Offroader said:

This really isn't true, I never really said this is the best tire for everyone. It was always in the context of someone who uses the bike both on and offroad.

According to Offroader, you do not want to run a 3.5" tire in the rear! :lol:

Click to expand...

Wrong. You have said it several times, and not in that context:

Link me to a post where I said all this stuff. I went through all my old posts and I do not see any post which was misleading or recommending stuff not in context to how I am riding. Maybe you are the one taking one sentence of out context and then trying to fight with me about it. You won't link any posts because you won't find any, unless you take a sentence out of context.

Rix knows better than anyone about unsprung weight, I don't think he would be saying a 3.5" tire was better without taking those things into account. I know we had discussions before about unsprung weight and heavy tires.

You really don't bring any value to anything except trying to fight with people. Instead of trying to refute any of my claims or recommendations you try and just say how I am wrong or say things like you can't generalize because 1% of the people don't do what you are doing. Or you say this is better without really saying why its better.

You haven't said anything to change my mind about any of recommendations.

People here probably notice this and just want to stay out of it. I'm bringing in useful information to my posts, saying exactly the reasons I am choosing things, letting people see what they can do with their bikes. Building 18" rims as an alternative to 19".

What have you done here except try and fight with people? You bring nothing to the table, instead you just try and put people down here. You are just like those dirt bike guys over at thumpertak.com.

I remember in the past you were fighting with someone else here.

Kauaiguy · Apr 12, 2020

My Surron is 95 percent ridden in mud and dirt and keeps up with IC bikes pretty well.The light weight in the tight Kauai jungles is faster and easier on the body than 125/300 IC bikes.I usually ride A class races.

3DTOPO · Apr 12, 2020

Offroader said:
Link me to a post where I said all this stuff. I went through all my old posts and I do not see any post which was misleading or recommending stuff not in context to how I am riding. Maybe you are the one taking one sentence of out context and then trying to fight with me about it. You won't link any posts because you won't find any, unless you take a sentence out of context.

I'm not going to do all the work for you, they are your posts and you can just as easily find them as I can. But just as an example your first quote is from here: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/v...902&p=1535827&hilit=Shinko+Offroader#p1535827

Where in that post are you talking only about people that need a general purpose tire? You're not.

Offroader said:
Instead of trying to refute any of my claims or recommendations you try and just say how I am wrong or say things like you can't generalize because 1% of the people don't do what you are doing. Or you say this is better without really saying why its better.

That is also completely false. I had refuted your ridiculous claims point by point only to be ignored or glazed over by you.

Offroader said:
People here probably notice this and just want to stay out of it. I'm bringing in useful information to my posts, saying exactly the reasons I am choosing things, letting people see what they can do with their bikes. Building 18" rims as an alternative to 19".

And I have refuted point by point why I disagree with you. But I am not going to repeat myself when you didn't even respond to my original points.

You have proven you have no idea what a proper off-road tire even is by belittling people for running a 3.5" tire in the rear because you have found that the 3.0" is perfect and cannot be improved upon, and by claiming the stock tires are perfect if they didn't wear away so fast.

Offroader said:
What have you done here except try and fight with people? You bring nothing to the table, instead you just try and put people down here. You are just like those dirt bike guys over at thumpertak.com.

You have admitted that you are making claims specifically to generate a response:

Offroader said:
Yes, I want to be provocative by saying its the "best", and it obviously works as people are more likely to try and refute my claim . This is what I want to motivate people to talk about my claim or refuting it to prove me wrong and sharing their opinion.

Based on your own words, you are the one inciting people here. I give you what you wanted, and then you claim that I am just here to fight. Ridiculous.

Offroader said:
I remember in the past you were fighting with someone else here.

You mean that a-hole who had his Sur Ron for a whole month and claims he has the world's fastest Sur Ron because he installed an off-the-shelf ASI controller and off-the-shelf battery and refused to believe Luke was running one over 100+ miles per hour nearly two years ago?

Offroader · Apr 12, 2020

3DTOPO said:
I'm not going to do all the work for you, they are your posts and you can just as easily find them as I can. But just as an example your first quote is from here: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/v...902&p=1535827&hilit=Shinko+Offroader#p1535827

Where in that post are you talking only about people that need a general purpose tire? You're not.

Look what I said in that post:

Rix, I have an 18x3.00 Shinko 241 tire. That really is probably the best tire for this bike. I do like the stock tire, but it wears away very quickly. I may use my Sur-Ron to commute to work sometimes and it would really wear away the stock tire.

The other issue I noticed with the stock sur-ron tire in the rear is that it seems to lose grip very easily in the dirt when accelerating. I'm not sure if the wider 18x3.00 shinko will be better but I'm thinking it will. I'm ripping up everything with the tire.
The Shinko 241 on my hub motor bike never was able to spin so easily, but it could be because it was a hub motor, although I was using a lot of power on it.

The stock tire on the front wears away very slowly and is perfect for the front. Especially considering its light weight for a motorcycle tire.

First, I was responding to one person who knows what I ride with my bike as we have spoke before about tires and he has even given me the recommendations years ago to try out the shinko 241 as he liked that tire a lot.

I also said it is "probably the best", because I really don't know its the best. I was writing that because I was leaving open to discussion if that was the best because I wasn't really sure. I would never really say this is the best because I haven't tried many tires and there is always something I never came across out there. But most likely this is probably the best tire as I am yet to find anything better that works for my riding.

I don't know what I was thinking at the time but I pretty much was referring to my bike, or best for this bike, my sur-ron. This is when I wrote "probably the best for this bike".

Then in the same post I talk about the tire wearing on my commute to work and also the stock tire losing grip in the dirt. Both referencing that I ride in the dirt and on the street.

I still don't see any posts where I just straight out said anthing was the best, or the way you are saying I am making recommendations about the best tire.

3DTOPO · Apr 12, 2020

Offroader said:
I still don't see any posts where I just straight out said anthing was the best, or the way you are saying I am making recommendations about the best tire.

You seem to be completely contradicting yourself:

Offroader said:
Yes, I want to be provocative by saying its the "best"

Offroader · Apr 12, 2020

The Hidden Evils Of Unsprung Weight

http://www.mxa-digital.com/motocrossaction/april_2018/MobilePagedArticle.action?articleId=1364929#articleId1364929

Before you guys go out and start using large and heavy tires, 3.5" tires or even 3" tires, I would read over that link.
Unsprung weight is very important and not something you should add unless you get a good tradeoff.

My Shinko 241 at 7lbs is still way heavy for a sur-ron which uses bicycle suspension. The fatter tire is nice, but the tire is made for much heavier bikes.

I will eventually put back on the lighter sur-ron knobby tire and see just how much a difference the weight makes.

The sur-ron does not have alll that much power and no gears, so you have to decide if a 3.5" tire will offer anthing but added unsprung weight. I'm not having traction issues with my 3" tire, hard to justify a 3.5" tire.

3DTOPO · Apr 12, 2020

Offroader said:
The sur-ron does not have alll that much power and no gears, so you have to decide if a 3.5" tire will offer anthing but added unsprung weight. I'm not having traction issues with my 3" tire, hard to justify a 3.5" tire.

It's not just about traction from power. It's also about cornering and distribution of weight. Someone who claims to know what the best tires are for everyone should know that.

Offroader · Apr 12, 2020

3DTOPO said:
Offroader said:

I still don't see any posts where I just straight out said anthing was the best, or the way you are saying I am making recommendations about the best tire.

Click to expand...

You seem to be completely contradicting yourself:

Offroader said:

Yes, I want to be provocative by saying its the "best"

Click to expand...

I'm being provocative but at the same time I'm not still letting people know know that I'm not 100% sure by using the word probably.

I said "its probably the best tire". May get someone to let me know that something is better as they would know I'm looking for the best tire.

If I wrote "its a very good tire" I would get no responses from anyone because they would not think I am going for the best.

All my posts I do not see where I am misleading anyone or blindly recommending things as how you are saying I am doing.

Offroader · Apr 12, 2020

3DTOPO said:
Offroader said:

The sur-ron does not have alll that much power and no gears, so you have to decide if a 3.5" tire will offer anthing but added unsprung weight. I'm not having traction issues with my 3" tire, hard to justify a 3.5" tire.

Click to expand...

It's not just about traction from power. It's also about cornering and distribution of weight. Someone who claims to know what the best tires are for everyone should know that.

Not disagreeing with you. I have no traction issues or cornering issues. The only issue I had with the 2.75" tire was power issues with traction as it would seem to spin out when climbing steep hills a little. Never had issues with the stock 2.75" tire cornering.

I'm not racing the bike either. You have to be doing some serious riding or racing if you are having cornering issues with traction. That I can't speak about as I push the bike hard, I don't want to get hurt at the same time so I wouldn't push the cornering to the point where I am having traction issues.

X-Nitro · Apr 12, 2020

ya you really don"t have the depth of knowledge or skill to be recommending anything for my builds or riding :thumb:

Offroader · Apr 12, 2020

3DTOPO said:
Someone who claims to know what the best tires are for everyone should know that.

Missed that, again, link me to a post where I am telling everyone what the best tires are. You keep saying this but are not showing me the posts.

Then you show me a post where I said, "probably the best tire" and that was for my bike I was referring to as I was responding to someone who knows my riding.

You just like to stir stuff up, but then when you get called out you can't show any proof. I read all my posts and am not seeing any posts where I am telling people what the best tire is.

You may lack reading comprehension and that is why you keep reading things incorrectly.

Offroader · Apr 12, 2020

3dTOPO, I just reread all my posts, the closest thing I found to recommending what tire was the best was here, but it was not even a recommendation more of a what I thought would be best for people.

Just go back and read my 5 posts related to tires, you will see nothing you are claiming.

Here is a direct link to all my prior posts
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?author_id=34090&sr=posts

I'm not really telling anyone want is the best, but I am saying for most people I really believe, showing that this is just an opinion of mine without really being 100% sure.

I could see if I said to everyone, Hey everyone, the best tire is the shinko 241 for this bike hands down. That is far from what I am saying and what you are implying I am saying. I'm just saying an opinion with making it known that I am not 100% sure. I am also saying for most people because there are always niche riders who need specialized tires for their riding conditions.

Even in the post below, It was in reference to what most people would find optimal, I was not even recommending any tire to anyone.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=89902&p=1543559#p1543559
To sum it up you are basically doing what I am doing, using an 18" tire. That was the smart decision. Going with a 3.5" I can't really say if that was smart or not as I would have to ride with such a large tire. I would have to see how that lifts up the rear of the bike because it is a larger tire than the 19" front. I would have to see how it deals with the chain. I would have to see how quickly that tire wore away the knobs and how hard the tread compound is.

For most people I really believe the optimal tire and rim combo would be a 18x1.6" rim with a shinko 241 18x3.00 tire. This is an almost exact size match to the stock 19" tire. It will not mess with your suspension geometry.

I actually didn't mind the stock 19" on the rear, the big issue with that is it wore away in less than 500 miles. It didn't have the greatest traction as I was always spinning it on the grass and ripping everything up.

3DTOPO · Apr 12, 2020

Offroader said:
3DTOPO said:

Someone who claims to know what the best tires are for everyone should know that.

Click to expand...

Missed that, again, link me to a post where I am telling everyone what the best tires are. You keep saying this but are not showing me the posts.

Then you show me a post where I said, "probably the best tire" and that was for my bike I was referring to as I was responding to someone who knows my riding.

You just like to stir stuff up, but then when you get called out you can't show any proof. I read all my posts and am not seeing any posts where I am telling people what the best tire is.

You may lack reading comprehension and that is why you keep reading things incorrectly.

Dude, I quoted you in four different posts essentially saying the same thing. Then when I call you out, you completely contradict your statement made earlier. With your our own words you admitted that you like to say what is best!

Offroader said:
Yes, I want to be provocative by saying its the "best"

So which is it?

And here are more examples. Calling it the "perfect" tire is the same as saying its the best tire.

Offroader said:
I'm thinking this may be the perfect tire for the rear of a Sur-Ron, longer lasting on paverment, soft compound, good grip, thick and long knobs.

Offroader said:
That being said the Sur Ron stock tires are perfect for the front, they wear very slowly and are light and flexible.

Offroader said:
I am finally in the process of building the ultimate Sur-Ron rear wheel, a 18"x3.00" Shinko 241 tire, this is probably the perfect size rear tire you can get.

3DTOPO · Apr 12, 2020

Offroader said:
You have to be doing some serious riding or racing if you are having cornering issues with traction.

Actually all it takes is patches of sandy, soft, loamy, muddy, snowy, icy to make corning a top concern. I thought your name was "Offroader"?

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