EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

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Boondocksaints   1 mW

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EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by Boondocksaints » May 21 2019 2:22pm

EM3ev seems to have things on sale at cheaper prices than Luna.

Is there a reason to buy Luna over EM3ev? It seems like you get more battery for the cost with EM3ev and the BBSHD is also cheaper.

Am I missing something?

Tommm   100 kW

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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by Tommm » May 21 2019 2:59pm

Boondocksaints wrote:
May 21 2019 2:22pm
EM3ev seems to have things on sale at cheaper prices than Luna.

Is there a reason to buy Luna over EM3ev? It seems like you get more battery for the cost with EM3ev and the BBSHD is also cheaper.

Am I missing something?
Afaik em3ev ship from china and Luna from US. Depending on where you live you might get hit with different ship costs/tariffs.

Boondocksaints   1 mW

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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by Boondocksaints » May 21 2019 3:14pm

Tommm wrote:
May 21 2019 2:59pm
Boondocksaints wrote:
May 21 2019 2:22pm
EM3ev seems to have things on sale at cheaper prices than Luna.

Is there a reason to buy Luna over EM3ev? It seems like you get more battery for the cost with EM3ev and the BBSHD is also cheaper.

Am I missing something?
Afaik em3ev ship from china and Luna from US. Depending on where you live you might get hit with different ship costs/tariffs.
Thank you.

RunForTheHills   100 W

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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by RunForTheHills » May 21 2019 3:43pm

I looked at both when I bought my battery. I almost went with the Wolfpack as it is fully potted and they were offering a clear (naked) version of it a month or so ago that looked pretty cool. The potting makes it more water and shockproof, but harder to service. I ended up ordering a Jumbo Shark 14S5P from EM3EV because I wanted the extra AH capacity of a 5P over a 4P. In fact, it just arrived today.

flat tire   1 MW

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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by flat tire » May 21 2019 3:52pm

EM3 is probably more professional than Luna. I don't want to worry about whether the person processing my order is on acid and sends me bottom brackets when I order a motor.

RunForTheHills   100 W

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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by RunForTheHills » May 21 2019 4:06pm

flat tire wrote:
May 21 2019 3:52pm
EM3 is probably more professional than Luna. I don't want to worry about whether the person processing my order is on acid and sends me bottom brackets when I order a motor.
There is something to be said for warning others if you have had an actual bad experience with Luna, gave them a chance to make it right, and they didn't. However, to just make random comments like that seems unfair.

flat tire   1 MW

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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by flat tire » May 21 2019 4:24pm

What makes you think I didn't?

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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by RunForTheHills » May 21 2019 4:49pm

How would I know if you did? You didn't relate a specific experience with them. You just made a broad statement implying that their employees are high on drugs. I know it was meant as sarcasm. I just think it is unfair to trash a company's reputation on the Internet without giving your reasons for doing so. There are certainly some bad companies out there that deserve their reputations. However, it is hard for a good company that makes mistakes and tries to correct them to stay in business if there is trash talk about them on the Internet. Particularly if it is in an influential forum in their industry like this one.

Fastest1   10 W

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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by Fastest1 » May 21 2019 5:59pm

I have purchased BBS02’s, HD’s and batteries from both vendors. I have had good experiences with both also.
I have also had problems with a BMS on a EM3EV battery and a controller on a BBSHD from Luna.
Neither were within the warranty period yet I received excellent technical support and replacements at my cost.
I felt all was very fair and wouldnt hesitate to do business with either vendor again.
In fact I know I will.


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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by bakaneko » May 22 2019 7:37am

I purchased something small from Luna and it came quickly with a good automated email chain. That being said, I am not that big of a fan of the owner and his rants against other companies (competition) and those not himself.

He literally said our stuff is not impressive, mundane/simple, and doesn't blip on his radar. Tell that to a kid/layman that just put together his/her first kit and now has set a "fire" of creativity and open a whole new world of enjoyment and science. Tell that guy "yeah your shit is mundane and unimpressive"; no, even though it may seem simple to many of you its not to him/her. Its the start of something new and maybe something great down the line.

Its this arrogance and disregard for DIYers (prob same of all ebike companies) that bothers me. Anywho, for a company they sent the product and communicated well. And guys, I am from the gas motorized bike world too. I can tell you all the vendors there except for like two (SBP) are like F- ratings.

2old   100 kW

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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by 2old » May 22 2019 8:58am

I've ordered at least ten different times from Luna (probably more like 15, but can't remember all of them), batteries, BBS02's , Cyclones and small parts. The one time there was a problem it was rectified quickly and courteously. I met Paul from em3ev at Interbike and he seemed like a great guy and probably my experience with them would have been good too. However at the time their prices were higher than Luna's.

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by fechter » May 22 2019 10:01am

The wire bonded connections and potting on the Wolf pack make it about the safest pack on the market from a fire safety standpoint. It should also be very durable.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by neptronix » May 22 2019 11:29am

EM3EV is ran by an engineer with an obsessive attention to detail, and has focused on making the best battery packs on the planet. In his battery listings, you will see things intentionally derated, which is rare in this industry. Paul sort of... underpromises and overdelivers.

Lunacycle is ran by a marketer and makes a few good packs but also resells or rebrands a decent amount of low quality merchandise you can find on aliexpress and isn't very picky about the quality of goods, and has a history of fluffing up specifications ( for example, selling a ~350w rated Xiongda as a 750-900 watt motor, and refusing to change that when contradicted with a dyno sheet from Xiongda themselves )

Personalities aside, i am more liable to make my purchases from an engineer-ran, detail oriented company like em3ev, even if i take a kick to the nuts with Chinese tariffs or shipping.
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Bullfrog   1 kW

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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by Bullfrog » Feb 19 2020 10:10am

Need a little help selecting my next battery....so far I have bought five batteries from EM3ev and they have performed above expectations...like Neptronix said. The one time I had an issue, they rectified it. IMO their support is great. Bought a lot of parts from Luna and IMO their support is a step down but not bad by any means. You left out Grin Tech...they are way up there, after all this forum would not be here if it were not for Grin Tech/Justin :D .

BUT my newest battery is a 14s5p with HG2 cells from EM3ev and the BMS circuit breaker turns the battery off if I have my Cycle Analyst set to 46.0A or any higher...when I accelerate at full throttle from a stop on level ground with my 12T MAC. The total weight for me and the bike is about 260 lbs and I am running a 26" Hookworm that has a 686mm OD and a 60A Infineon Controller. To quote EM3ev..."Please note we recommend a max of no more than 50A for the BMS. The trip current is set just above 60A. "...this is the first time I have experienced their packs not fully living up to their specs.

So all that said, does anybody have a recommendation for a 14s battery that has a BMS that can reliably supply at least 50A and 60A would be even better? Sure would be nice to use the full capability of my 60A controller. I realize I am over powering my MAC but how do I experimentally find the limits if I can't exceed them :lol: . With the 12T MAC running on 58.8v and 45.5A, no problems...yet :D .

Based on all of my research, it seems like a 50A BMS is about the highest out there from Luna/EM3ev or any of the "good" battery suppliers and a lot of them are using a 40A BMS. I don't really want to go to 72v with the MAC due to Eddy Current losses and the associated overheating. The HG2 cells are rated for 20A so capable of 100A in a 5p pack...theoretically. Sure would be nice if BMS technology would keep up with cell advancements but I guess the amperage squared term for heating is a BIG factor :wink: .

Didn't mean to hijack this thread...if there is a better place to post my question/problem, please let me know and I'll delete it here. Thank You
Last edited by Bullfrog on Feb 20 2020 2:13pm, edited 1 time in total.

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shortcircuit911   1 kW

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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by shortcircuit911 » Feb 19 2020 11:33am

I bought a 72v 25ah battery made of 25r cells from EM3EV. All I can say is they were amazing to deal with from start to finish. Excellent communication, great price, and awesome product.

I have no experience with luna.

FWIW

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by john61ct » Feb 20 2020 6:08pm

Do any of these "top three" pack vendors do custom to special order?

As in, these cells, that shape, this BMS. . .

Bullfrog   1 kW

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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by Bullfrog » Feb 20 2020 8:29pm

Nope...none do custom orders as far as I could find.

It has been a few years sine I asked but you have to realize any changes to their production process would upset the apple cart.

You are more than welcome to ask again...and please let us know if you find different :D .

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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by john61ct » Feb 20 2020 8:36pm

So are there North American forum members that are known to do good work?

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jonescg   1.21 GW

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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by jonescg » Feb 21 2020 1:55am

Both battery packs look solid. Fully potted wire-bonded battery pack is about as bombproof as you can make them.

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by john61ct » Feb 21 2020 2:44am


jonescg wrote:Both battery packs look solid. Fully potted wire-bonded battery pack is about as bombproof as you can make them.
By wire bonding, does that mean this process?

https://chargedevs.com/features/a-close ... re-bonding

No spot-welding involved?

fusible links?

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jonescg   1.21 GW

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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by jonescg » Feb 21 2020 3:00am

Yes, exactly that.

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by john61ct » Feb 21 2020 3:23am

I was not aware that process was already in use for eBike pack building.

Are the "fuse" ratings known?

Higher / lower current rate versions selectable?

Just a link would be appreciated if such details have already been discussed in another thread?

Bullfrog   1 kW

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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by Bullfrog » Feb 21 2020 5:48am

Cell technology has advanced a lot and the way the wires are connected is pretty reliable for both Luna and EM3ev. I beat the crap out of my batteries riding over roots at 20 mph with a hardtail bike and I have never had a problem with my EM3ev packs but that said, the fully potted packs that Luna now offers have got to be very rugged. The fully potted pack also has drawbacks...i.e. heat transfer so don't let the marketing BS fool you...there are goods AND bads. The EM3ev pack will only transfer heat marginally better...after all it is fully enclosed and the cells are glued together.

The BMS is now the limiting factor in most packs IMO...not the cells or the way the wires are connected.

Not sure exactly what Luna uses but EM3ev has a BMS that is Blue Tooth accessible for troubleshooting and data retrieval and will also do cell balancing at lower states of charge. Both the Wolf Pack at Luna and EM3ev 14s packs have a BMS rated for 50A continuous. The highest amperage cells Luna uses are the 30Q...which are rated at 15A/3,000mAh and with EM3ev you can get the HG2 which is rated at 20A/3,000mAh so I'd have to give the nod to EM3ev if you are after a small high power pack. If you don't need or want the high power, like some others have said, the fully potted wolf pack has to get the nod for durability. For high capacity Luna use the MJ-1 cell which is rated for 10A/3,500mAh and EM3ev uses the 35E (8A/3,400mAh) so Luna gets a slight nod for capacity. Want something bigger...in the 14s6p pack Luna only offers the MJ1 cells where EM3ev has a few choices including the PF, HG2, and 35E.

It sort of comes down to...do you want to pay less and wait a little longer for it to get to you from China with EM3ev or pay more and get it quicker with Luna. AND that assumes you live in North America.

Tech support...I have had more detailed tech support provided by EM3ev but just like shipping there is usually a delay. Not everybody wants or needs it.

If you are after really big power and can handle the increased size...the EM3ev 20s10p pack gets the nod but it is in another ball park from the 14s packs.

Neptronix's point helps tip the scales towards EM3ev for me but Luna has gotten a lot better and that fully potted pack has to be rugged...so it just depends on whether you like apples or oranges :D .

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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by Bullfrog » Apr 21 2020 5:50am

Problems with EM3ev....they no longer have anyone available to repair a battery in North America. Which means if you are in North America and experience a problem, you are on your own.

I have experienced a problem with a 14s5p battery I purchased which has HG2 cells. There is a weak cell group that makes the Low Voltage Cut Off activate around 50v (pack voltage). Been going back and forth for over a month with EM3ev and still no resolution.

My perception is they have become too big too fast and can not adequately support their customers if a problem occurs. Pretty sad because up until now, they have been very good and Joseph, the guy that answers all of the emails has educated me considerably.

They want me to reprogram my BMS to constantly balance the cell groups yet I can not get any instructions or help on how to do it. I had to purchase an Android device to prove to them that there was a weak cell group by using the BMS blue tooth capability. IMO reprogramming the BMS is just a band aid because the weak cell group will still diminish the overall capacity of the battery. Instead of calling me or sending me instructions via email, they now want me to Skype with the office in China, but I told them I don't have a microphone or a camera on my computer...pretty difficult to "Skype" without them.

Sent them an email today with three options...A. Have someone call me, B. Send me instructions via email, C. Send me a shipping label so I can send the battery to them for repair.

To be continued...

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Re: EM3ev vs Luna Batteries and Kits

Post by john61ct » Apr 21 2020 11:07am

Use your Android to Skype

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