Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by madin88 » Apr 07 2020 11:12am

Is anyone here having issues with Sempu 2.3 torque sensor and CA showing only 0.25V idle, while it should be 1.5V?

I have two sensors and both don't work so i wonder if they just came defect or if there is something wrong with the CA (it has actual V3.1 FW but it is already some years old)

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » Apr 07 2020 11:37pm

this may not be the problem, but just to be sure it's got sufficient power:

what voltage does your sempu require to power it, and where is it being supplied from, and what is the actual voltage of that power supply at the sensor connector?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by madin88 » Apr 08 2020 5:07am

amberwolf wrote:
Apr 07 2020 11:37pm
this may not be the problem, but just to be sure it's got sufficient power:

what voltage does your sempu require to power it, and where is it being supplied from, and what is the actual voltage of that power supply at the sensor connector?
It is 12-60V version.
On the CA the ouput for torque sensor is only 10V so i did connect it directly to V batt which is 48V.
The pulse signals work so i think there is only something wrong with torque signal.
Both sensor idle at 0.25V, and with lall my weight on one pedal it maybe goes up to 0.4-0.5V

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » Apr 08 2020 5:15pm

i went googling around to see what the range should be for the sempu 2.3, but havent' yet found that. i did find that people have said that version doesn't actually sense "torque" per se, it senses bending or distortion across the crankshaft, rather than rotational torque across the shaft (which later models like the 4.x do).

justin_le said this still works fine (even with the ca) for torque-based control of the motor, it's just a different way of doing it.
viewtopic.php?t=93139

according to this page
https://www.ebikes.ca/learn/pedal-assis ... nal-levels
the sempu (doesn't say which version) should operate with about 1.5v as it's "offset" (standby) voltage, to around 4.0v as it's "full force" voltage:
Force Signal

The torque signal from these sensors is usually a straightforward voltage in the 0-5V signal range. The table below shows the resting voltage with no torque on the crank and the voltage you get with maximum torque for various sensors that we have offered. Notice how some sensors start at 2.5V and then decrease in voltage as torque is applied, others increase in voltage, and none have the same overall scaling for Nm / volt.
Sensor Type Offset Voltage Full Torque Voltage
THUN / NCTE 2.5 V 0.5V
TDCM 2.5V 3.3V
SEMPU 1.5V 4.0V
Cycle Stoker 1-2V 4.5V

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by psatu » Apr 16 2020 3:33am

I have a very strange problem on CAV3. There is a constant +5 voltage on the Torque sensor Trq pad.

I have measured that the pad is not shorted to the regular +5V signal. And the trq pad is not shorted to any other pads on the PCB either.

I measured the Trq pad with only a battery Input voltage +42V supplied.
And the LCD wasn't connected either if it matters to the measurement.

So there can't be any external device feeding the voltage to the Trq pad.

And the voltage on a trq pad is a little smaller than the +5V regular signal. The Trq signal voltage is 4.92V as the +5V output signal is 4.98V according to my multimeter.

It is a puzzle to me where the voltage is coming to the pad. Maybe some sort of a short circuit somewhere? Does anyone have a clue what can have happened?

The history of the case is that I have been using a Sempu T2 torque sensor about three years already but some 6 months ago the sensor Torque feature failed so that the sensor began to supply a constant +4V signal out to the CA. But the PAS RPM still worked fine. So I configured the CA to use only a basic PAS detection. And used the CA that way about half an year or so.

I couldn't fix the sensor and Sempu didn't answer to any emails. So I bought a new Sensor, similar otherwise but the cable entry is through bottom middle of the BB. It is a newer version with an all metal construction.

That worked fine about an week before really odd behaviour happened. After a start from a standstill the CA output a full throttle signal for few seconds but later on settled and worked normally.

Until at some moment the Trq signal on CA display began to indicate a max torque all the time.

Then I measured the voltage on the Trq Pad on the CA PCB and there indeed was a fixed +4.92V signal.

I haven't yet measured what signal the Sempu actually feed, but at a present situation it doesn't even matter because the Trq is constant +5V regardless whether the Sempu is connected ot not.

Kind of short circuit it must be on a CA PCB or can there be some other explanation?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » Apr 16 2020 3:35pm

if there's no short (using ohms or continuity check) to any other pad on the ca, with nothing connected to the pas connector and no power applied to the ca, then it would have to be something in the ca's electronics itself that is applying 5v back to that pad, but i don't know from where. it implies a component failure somewhere.

there's a slight chance that if the ca has ever gotten wet inside (or condensation built up) that corrosion occured and is leaving a conductive path of high enough resistance to not measure as a short, but still pass 5v to that pad or a trace that leads to that pad. it may or may not be visible, but you could examine it carefully for that, and clean it if you find it, and retest.

otherwise, i can't think of anything else, and you'd have to contact grin tech at ebikes.ca to see about sending it in for repair, unless they can provide other suggestions to check that you could repair yourself.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by JanComputerman » Apr 19 2020 5:06pm

justin_le wrote:
Jul 04 2019 5:00am
JanComputerman wrote:
Jun 17 2019 5:19am
Wow plenty of reading here! Just flashed last week 3.14 from 3.12 on my CA3 and got the max speed 654 a couple of times and not once...not a big problem.
Yes, unfortunately this is a bug that seems to have slipped in undetected with the most recent release. It doesn't affect any of the average speed or distance computations and we'll be having a 3.15 build that will fix this. In the meantime if someone needs to routinely check their max speed reading, I'd recommend either installing the 3.13 firmware, or press and hold the right button to do a reset when you are on the screen with the max speed display. This will _only_ reset the max speed value to 0 without resetting your trip Ah and Distance, so you can use it to clear the 654 reading without affecting anything else.
I run a slim throttle (fantastic!) and current control (torque drive) instead of speed control which allows nice controllable takeoff acceleration, throttle proportional Regen with a left brake lever ebrake switch on the front brake. All good, however, I see the kick of motor power is still present when I forget to release the throttle before I release the ebrake switch. I have throttle ramps setup but they apparently are not used with the ebrake switch which would fix the kick.
Can you tell me do you still get this kick if you change over to pass-thru throttle mode, or is it only experienced with the amps throttle? And if you do experience it only with the amps throttle, can you change to a watts throttle (basically the same thing) and see if it is also present then? We implemented more special windup control behavior in the power limit feedback loop (for instance with PAS) and may have overlooked doing the same for the amps feedback loop.
Justin (Dad👍) ... been riding 4289 miles, now in year three with nothing during a very rain filled first six months last year. Just got back into this forum to catch up last week and saw your post... I am running watt control with the throttle so it has the ebrake release kick ...did not try amp drive. Max mph reset is a big help as I record all the stats after every ride but also use a front wheel speedo that is separate to compare. New thing... I run 12 cell Lipo battery packs most of the time but recently went back to a 14 cell and found that the motor starts spinning when I turn on the controller for a few seconds (not just a quick kick). Also the ebrake regen spins the wheel forward until the voltage drops below 58.0 volts ...something new which I may not have run into since the CA update. Output throttle values seem correct for regen or none if over 58 volts but it now puts out up to about 30 watts to make the wheel spin. Fortunately I power up on a rear wheel stand so no unscheduled launches! I also continue to have hall sensor connector problems and found the connector on the controller had 3 end loose crimps which I soldered (all 5) but continue to have connection issues especially on bumps during throttle and regen ...rework connectors is on my list todo.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by mrbill » Apr 23 2020 1:16pm

I'm looking to find a solution to a problem with my CA3 that I discovered yesterday while running my bike in e-bike "Class 1" mode.

Class 1 e-bikes in California are limited to a speed under power of 20mph (32 kph), 750 watts (presumably "brake motor power" not input power), and throttle use disabled unless the cranks are rotating, i.e. the rider is pedaling.

To disable my throttle while not pedaling I set the "Max No-Pedal Speed" under "Speed Limit Settings" to 0 (zero). This appears to do exactly what I want except when I'm commanding varying levels of regenerative "motor" braking.

When using the motor to brake, I get full motor braking only. I checked the Out stat on the CA3 Diagnostics screen and discovered that it is pegged to 0.0 volts out no matter the voltage of In. I don't believe it is reasonable to require pedaling to make use of the throttle as a braking force control.

I am using firmware version 3.12. I could not find a history of bug fixes with the recent firmware releases, so I am posting to this forum to see if anyone knows whether this bug has been resolved in firmware versions 3.13 or 3.14, or if I have discovered a new bug.

Btw, I am not using firmware version 3.14 because with that firmware version I was getting spurious maximum speed readings. I see that Justin and Co. will be addressing that in version 3.15.

I have attached my CA3 configuration file.
Pursuit_3.12.hex.txt
Remove the ".txt" suffix after downloading
(1.33 KiB) Downloaded 14 times
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by NCC1941 » Apr 23 2020 4:53pm

mrbill wrote:
Apr 23 2020 1:16pm
When using the motor to brake, I get full motor braking only. I checked the Out stat on the CA3 Diagnostics screen and discovered that it is pegged to 0.0 volts out no matter the voltage of In. I don't believe it is reasonable to require pedaling to make use of the throttle as a braking force control.
You have "Limit Speed Using Regen" set to Yes. That's the cause of the observed behavior.

When you're not pedaling, your CA's speed limit is set to 0mph, and it's using regen to slow you down to that speed. Turn that setting off and you should be good to go.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by mrbill » Apr 23 2020 6:07pm

NCC1941 wrote:
Apr 23 2020 4:53pm
You have "Limit Speed Using Regen" set to Yes. That's the cause of the observed behavior.

When you're not pedaling, your CA's speed limit is set to 0mph, and it's using regen to slow you down to that speed. Turn that setting off and you should be good to go.
Well, yes, may be true. But, the ostensible purpose of the "Max No-Pedal Speed" limit is to prevent driving (powering) without pedaling to achieve compliance with regulations, not to constrain speed when the throttle repurposed as a brake lever is moved from its resting position. It is odd to require one to pedal in order to modulate the brake in the usual fashion.

There ought to be an exception to speed limiting using regen. When speed is above Max No-Pedal Speed limit, rider is not pedaling, and the ebrake circuit is closed (braking is in effect), the throttle should map normally as a brake lever (e.g. 0.0 - 0.8 volts), not be clamped to 0.0 volts until the vehicle is in compliance with the Max No-Pedal Speed limit.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by NCC1941 » Apr 23 2020 7:19pm

I'm in complete agreement. On my own setup (28mph PAS limit, 20mph throttle limit, regen speed limiting), I've had some nasty surprises due to that behavior, and I'm considering turning it off, even though it's really convenient for speed control on long downhill stretches. Regen speed control definitely shouldn't override rider-input regen, and ideally, I'd have liked an option to have regen speed control only kick in when above the higher of the two speed limits.

But I don't see anything that would indicate to me that this behavior is a bug - it seems to me that it's just undesired. If you were to turn off that setting, your bike would still have an unresponsive throttle except when you're pedaling, it would still discontinue assistance over 20mph, and you would still be able to intentionally engage proportional regen. It just wouldn't automatically engage full regen any time you stop pedaling, and it wouldn't automatically use regen to pull you back down to 20mph if you exceed it.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by JanComputerman » May 01 2020 4:57am

MrBill - here is a thought ... get a resistive throttle and connect it to the aux analog input and set it to be the speed limiting control. Now your throttle, if wired backwards, will become the inverse max speed control only and slow you down at any time, although not at a light to strong rate as usual, but as an adjustable speed limit so apply it gradually.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by mrbill » May 01 2020 11:05am

JanComputerman wrote:
May 01 2020 4:57am
MrBill - here is a thought ... get a resistive throttle and connect it to the aux analog input and set it to be the speed limiting control. Now your throttle, if wired backwards, will become the inverse max speed control only and slow you down at any time, although not at a light to strong rate as usual, but as an adjustable speed limit so apply it gradually.
Unfortunately, I'm already using the Aux Pot as a power limit control and the Aux Digital as a graded speed limit control. My solution for now is simply not to use the "Legal" mode where my throttle is disabled at any speed unless I'm pedaling, unless I have reason to believe I am likely to be stopped and my bike inspected by the authorities.

The problem is that the Max No Pedal Speed limit should not disable the throttle from being used as a variable regenerative brake control, whether or not Limit Speed Using Regen is checked or not.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by JanComputerman » May 09 2020 8:06am

Give up the power limit control and just set it to the max you require (mine set to 30amps on the grin 40amp controller) so the wires don't melt. It's more about what you use than what you want (everything?).

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by A29Adriver@gmail.com » May 14 2020 7:59pm

I have a problem with my CycleAnalyst and PAS mode.

When I purchased the CA (second hand) it had version 1 firmware and at one time about 2 months ago the PAS worked. As I learn about CA I reset it to the default parameters. When I did this the PAS mode stopped working. I have gone thru the setup numerous times, but could not get the PAS to work again. I purchase a cable and today updated the firmware to version 14, everything looks correct to me, but the RPM for the pedal revolutions does not recognize the the pedal revolutions. When I am in setup the indicator arrow, the D arrow. goes up and down 5 times for each revolution of the pedal (5 magnets), I am using the PAS setup that came with the bicycle and I changed the power for the connection to 5 volts (as I said it worked at one time). I am attaching the printout of the version 14 that I sent to the CA and then read from the CA. Can someone see what I am missing
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by A29Adriver@gmail.com » May 14 2020 8:02pm

Sorry other screen shots,
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » May 14 2020 9:23pm

A29Adriver@gmail.com wrote:
May 14 2020 7:59pm
but the RPM for the pedal revolutions does not recognize the the pedal revolutions.
You might try to change the 5v=backwards to 5v=forwards.

I don't see any other settings that should make a difference.

When I am in setup the indicator arrow, the D arrow. goes up and down 5 times for each revolution of the pedal (5 magnets),
Then that means the hardware is working.

I am using the PAS setup that came with the bicycle and I changed the power for the connection to 5 volts (as I said it worked at one time).
Do you mean that it stopped working after you changed this, or that it was working with this change until you reset the CA?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by A29Adriver@gmail.com » May 14 2020 9:43pm

O.K. Amberwolf you get a gold star. I thought I had tried every thing, but I must not have changed the Forward and Reverse settings. I just changed it and it seems to work. Its raining now, but it works on the bike stand, so I will take it for a ride as soon as its dry.

Thank you.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ebike11 » May 17 2020 11:59pm

Hi guys
If you have a motor/system that can produce over 10000watts and over 100A, how can i make sure that the CA doesnt limit my max. speeds? The highest that I can set the CA at is 99A and 9999W.
Thanks

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by DanGT86 » May 18 2020 5:20am

In the calibration setup menu there is low and high range option. Low is for ebikes with max being 9999 watts. High range changes it over to kw.

https://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-analyst-3.html
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ebike11 » May 18 2020 8:41am

DanGT86 wrote:
May 18 2020 5:20am
In the calibration setup menu there is low and high range option. Low is for ebikes with max being 9999 watts. High range changes it over to kw.

https://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-analyst-3.html

1761B02C-DFFE-45F8-B887-467BB824401B.png
Oh thanks! At the moment i have the grin shunt which is 1 mOhm but i will have to set the CA to hi mode since i will be goong over 9999w.
Will i also have to change the shunt value or leave it at 1 mOhm?
Thanks!!

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by DanGT86 » May 18 2020 9:11am

I don't actually know if the shunt values of .1-.9 are recommended or required for HI range mode. I would guess that if they are required then you wont be able to tell it any value outside of that range. I would also be inclined to think that regardless of which setting you are using you would tell the CA the actual shunt value. Sorry I don't have those answers.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » May 18 2020 5:39pm

You should look at your settings using the PC Setup program. In the OEM Settings section, there is an Absolute limit for power/current, whcih should be set to 60000W and 200A.

Then you can make sure it's set to that (or whatver you want within that range) in the regular Power Limit section.

I've had problems with actually setting the power and current limits using the CA's onboard menus, and always have to use the setup program to change them, or else the CA may show absurdly low (and wrong) limits (even though it does not appear to be reacting to them).


If you switch to high range mode, you get another zero on both of those numbers, but your shunt *must* be less than 0.75milliohm, or you cannot set the CA to the correct value, and all of it's readings and reactions to limits will be wrong.

There are also some bugs in high range mode; don't recall what they are ATM (you'd have to look thru this thread for the reports), so if you use it you may run into them.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ebike11 » May 18 2020 8:18pm

amberwolf wrote:
May 18 2020 5:39pm
You should look at your settings using the PC Setup program. In the OEM Settings section, there is an Absolute limit for power/current, whcih should be set to 60000W and 200A.

Then you can make sure it's set to that (or whatver you want within that range) in the regular Power Limit section.

I've had problems with actually setting the power and current limits using the CA's onboard menus, and always have to use the setup program to change them, or else the CA may show absurdly low (and wrong) limits (even though it does not appear to be reacting to them).


If you switch to high range mode, you get another zero on both of those numbers, but your shunt *must* be less than 0.75milliohm, or you cannot set the CA to the correct value, and all of it's readings and reactions to limits will be wrong.

There are also some bugs in high range mode; don't recall what they are ATM (you'd have to look thru this thread for the reports), so if you use it you may run into them.
Hi there
Oh thats a good idea..i never thought of setting power settings on the laptop..i just thought it could be done on the CA itself.
If you change those values through a laptop, will the CA still display 99A and 9999W but NOT be limited to those numbers?

Update:
I entered 60000 and 200A in the Absolute boxes.
However after wrote/saved that setting, the regular Power limit still read 80A and 9999W so I also input 200 and 60000 in the Regular Power limit. Not sure if thats ok to do.
When I went to the onboard menu on the CA itself, it displays 0A and 0W. Does this make sense? Thx!

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by madin88 » May 23 2020 3:38am

I have installed a new torque PAS with Sempu T4.3 sensor which came as 1-wire type with 48 poles, and noticed the CA does not allow to set more than 32 poles. Any numbers higher than that are not applied.

Why it cannot be set higher than that? Is there a reason for?

I still got good results with a 24 pole setting and torque average of 12 poles (1/4 rev), but now all those human watt and statistic numbers are off as it reads twice the crank RPM now.
With about half the Nm/V setting the power it reads seems to be quite accurate but still no overall nice solution.

Otherwise in terms of power assist it works quite well even with speed based throttle controller. It starts almost instant and the response is many times better compared to NCTE or THUN sensors which only measure force on left side pedal. But it needs some tuning of throttle ramp settings and some other parameters to make it smooth working without oscillations.

One issue i noticed is when i stop to apply fore on the pedals (only spinning them freely), with human power being lower as the "start value" which is set up, the motor does not stop.
Lets say you have set 25W human power, the motor will begin to assist if it goes past this value, but it will not stop if it get lower than this when reducing force and spinning the cranks freely it reads around 5-10W and still applying power to the motor for lets say 3-5 sec before it goes out.

Shouldn't it stop instant?

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