EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

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Hillhater   100 GW

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EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by Hillhater » Feb 16 2020 5:01am

It sems the Ecro car makers are not going to make it easy for the EV revolution...
IONITY, a European EV charging network owned by BMW, Daimler, Ford, Hyundai, Kia, and VW Group (with Audi and Porsche) has announced that prices will be going up over 500% starting January 31 as they transition to a pay-per-kWh system.

Previously, IONITY charged a flat, fixed rate of €8 for a DCFC charging session. This was a good deal if you showed up with an empty battery and filled most of the way. If you arrived with, say, 10% battery remaining, and added 60 kWh during your charging session, then you’d get away with paying about €0.13 per kWh. For context, in France, electricity costs about €0.19 per kWh at home, and €0.24 per kWh at Tesla Superchargers. In Germany, you pay €0.30 per kWh at home, and €0.33 at Tesla Superchargers in Germany.

Starting next month, however, IONITY will be charging users a whopping €0.79 per kWh. (PDF press release). The Audi e-Tron battery is 95 kWh, so if you “filled it up” with 80 kWh, that’s €63.20 to travel probably about 160 miles, give or take. ]
https://electrek.co/2020/01/17/ionity-i ... anuary-31/
As they say...”There is no such thing as a free lunch !”
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boars   100 W

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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by boars » Feb 16 2020 9:49pm

Well this should certainly help Tesla sell some more vehicles, who'd want to deal with other charging networks? :shock:

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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by Hillhater » Feb 17 2020 2:15am

Its hard to see the logic in such an increase, It cannot improve revenue significantly as there are few VW, Ford, BMW, etc ,..EVs . And it will not encourage sales of those either.....
...But it will give Tesla another marketing advantage, ..providing they do not copy the idea !
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john61ct   100 GW

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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by john61ct » Feb 17 2020 3:40am

I am certain subsidies will stop and profits maximized on all privately owned EVSE networks, including Tesla's one day.

But this is sooner and a bigger jump than I expected.

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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by boars » Feb 17 2020 8:18am

Hillhater wrote:
Feb 17 2020 2:15am
Its hard to see the logic in such an increase, It cannot improve revenue significantly as there are few VW, Ford, BMW, etc ,..EVs . And it will not encourage sales of those either.....
...But it will give Tesla another marketing advantage, ..providing they do not copy the idea !
They certainly won't need to giveaway free unlimited recharging with new cars any time soon, just point at the other network and go we aren't them.

% increases aside it's just not competitive with the Tesla supercharger network which is clearly a vastly superior network that is now also much more affordable.

Makes the TCO's of VW etc cars look even worse? Inferior range, inferior price, inferior charging network and now to add most expensive charge while out and about?

What advantage do they have in any area of EV? Feels like the one thing they could have used as a lure in the short term is now gone.

I'm hoping someone points out where I'm wrong, I want the whole EV segment to succeed but this seems so counter intuitive... Healthy competition is always good.

This blows my simple mind haha

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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by john61ct » Feb 17 2020 8:42am

Looks like they want to push drivers toward the annual subscription contracts with the carmakers

https://www.electricfelix.com/blog/the- ... und-europe

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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by boars » Feb 17 2020 8:51am

john61ct wrote:
Feb 17 2020 8:42am
Looks like they want to push drivers toward the annual subscription contracts with the carmakers

https://www.electricfelix.com/blog/the- ... und-europe
Ah I missed that gem, ironically though that's more repulsive to me than just a price increase.

obcd   100 W

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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by obcd » Feb 17 2020 9:14am

Most EV's are bought by companies. They are simply charged at the company during daytime.
So the charging stations are not used enough to pay off for their investment.
Solution: increase the price for a charge.
People still using the charging station have no alternative as they clearly need some charge quick and fast. (to move further)
So, they will be used less, but the higher price will compensate for that. It's all just a marketing strategy.

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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by john61ct » Feb 17 2020 9:22am

Sure, but when all the non EV drivers hear that filling up an EV costs more than with fossil fuel, that will reduce EV adoption rates.

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by Hillhater » Feb 17 2020 9:40am

obcd wrote:
Feb 17 2020 9:14am
Most EV's are bought by companies. ....
Evidence ?
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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by obcd » Feb 17 2020 10:36am

Our gouvernment stopped giving a fee to individuals who bought an EV. They claimed it wasn't used much anyhow.
Companies are able to add such a car to their expenses for 120% the first 2 years and for 100% a couple more years.
My boss drives electric, and it's surely not because he's worried about the environment and climate heat.
Besides companies, what individuals can afford buying a 50000 euro car, not knowing how long it's battery will last?
Maybe in the us the situation is different, but in my country, most ev's are company owned car's.

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by john61ct » Feb 17 2020 10:43am

In Norway 56% of cars sold are electric, doubt those are "mostly companies"

John in CR   100 GW

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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by John in CR » Feb 25 2020 2:01pm

Over 30cents/kwh for electricity. :shock: That must be in large part because the average German household uses so much less electricity than a lot of other countries... eg less than 1/3 of the household kwh's used in the US and Canada. Hopefully as they transition to electric transportation, middle of the night charging can better balance their grid load to reap the benefits of the green energy sources they invested so heavily in. With the government controlling prices, you can bet the tax payers will only get screwed even more.

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by john61ct » Feb 25 2020 5:00pm

That does not seem too pricey to me.

Whatever can be done to encourage efficiency is A Good Thing.

Long as EVs are subsidized for consumers until only antique collectors are still using ICE.

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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by Cephalotus » Jun 13 2020 2:44pm

79ct/kWh is the maximum price. You can use other tariffs to use the Ionity system with prices around 30-40ct/kWh, which is not so far away from typical household tarifs and okay for occasional(!) super quick charging.

Super fast chargers are not meant for everyday charging if you have other options available, they are for long distance driving and 30-40ct/kWh would be okayish for me.

Keep in mind that gasoline is expensive, too.

if you want to charge for cheap your own solar system is helpful with charging costs for solar electricity at 9ct/kWh.

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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by Hillhater » Jun 14 2020 12:34am

Cephalotus wrote:
Jun 13 2020 2:44pm
,
if you want to charge for cheap your own solar system is helpful with charging costs for solar electricity at 9ct/kWh.
But, every kWh you divert to charge your EV is a kWh you do not have for use in the house !..so you would have to replace it with a grid supplied kWh at market prices.
Effectively you are charging your EV with grid priced kWh.
Unless you have a solar system capable of generating a surplus of 50 +kWh per day ? (I doubt many have that )
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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by Cephalotus » Jun 14 2020 4:44pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jun 14 2020 12:34am
Cephalotus wrote:
Jun 13 2020 2:44pm
,
if you want to charge for cheap your own solar system is helpful with charging costs for solar electricity at 9ct/kWh.
But, every kWh you divert to charge your EV is a kWh you do not have for use in the house !..so you would have to replace it with a grid supplied kWh at market prices.
Effectively you are charging your EV with grid priced kWh.
Unless you have a solar system capable of generating a surplus of 50 +kWh per day ? (I doubt many have that )
Average driving distance for cars is less than 14,000km/year over here.

At 20kWh/100km from the plug this translates to 2800kWh/year or roughly 50kWh per WEEK.

Typical houshold electricity consumption is around 3,000kWh/year over here.

Solar is so cheap those days that its always adviseable not to mess around with tiny insatllations but fill the roof. A 10kWp systeme will produce 10,000kWh/year.

Yu can feed excessive solar power tothe grid and you get paid 9ct/kWh.

so if yo charge your electric car (which needs 50-60kWh per WEEK) with your solar power you loose the feed in tarif which is 9ct/kWh.

If you don#T have solar available you have to charge from the grid, so depending on your situation you have a mixed price.

because gasoline costs around 1,30-1,50€/l electric vehicle are still an interesting option. That's why the German market for electric cars is now the 3rd largest in th world (after China and US) in absolute numbers and actually it just starts in 2020 and 2021 with attractice e-cars for the masses.

markz   100 GW

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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by markz » Jun 16 2020 9:03pm

Cephalotus wrote:
Jun 13 2020 2:44pm
if you want to charge for cheap your own solar system is helpful with charging costs for solar electricity at 9ct/kWh.
How many weeks would it take to charge up the entire Tesla battery pack, like 0.5 miles/hour charge rate.
Solar aint cheap, unless you've had them for 25+ years, by then they are obsolete, old, cracking and inefficient compared to new systems.

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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by JackFlorey » Jul 08 2020 4:35pm

markz wrote:
Jun 16 2020 9:03pm
How many weeks would it take to charge up the entire Tesla battery pack, like 0.5 miles/hour charge rate.
It would take 2 days to charge my Tesla completely (90KWhr) with my roof system alone.
Solar aint cheap, unless you've had them for 25+ years, by then they are obsolete, old, cracking and inefficient compared to new systems.
New solar is super cheap. Panels are now coming in well under 50 cents/watt (just saw an ad for 38 cents/watt in pallet quantities.) Installed costs are under $3/watt for US domestic installations (that is WITHOUT subsidies) and large commercial projects are going in costing 1.6 cents per kilowatt-hour.

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by Hillhater » Jul 08 2020 7:26pm

JackFlorey wrote:
Jul 08 2020 4:35pm
It would take 2 days to charge my Tesla completely (90KWhr) with my roof system alone..
Assuming you have a life/work situation that allows you to leave your $100+k car parked at home for 2 days ?
...whilst your house requirements are fed from the grid ?
But, Few people have a 10+kW solar system ..(@ $30,000 by your numbers !)..
..... Or the roof space to install one !
Most folk wouldnt have $30k available to spend on a car, let alone just for the system to recharge it !
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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by JackFlorey » Jul 08 2020 10:35pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 08 2020 7:26pm
Assuming you have a life/work situation that allows you to leave your $100+k car parked at home for 2 days ?
Mine isn't a $100K car. And there is solar both at work and at home. So no, it would not require me to stay home for 2 days to charge via solar.
But, Few people have a 10+kW solar system ..(@ $30,000 by your numbers !)..
A 12kW Tesla system is $23,000 before subsidies. After subsidies it's about $20K, depending on state.
..... Or the roof space to install one !
The average roof in the US is 1700 square feet. If you covered it with panels, every square inch, that would be a 30kW system. (Modern panels are around 17-18% efficient.) Allowing for spacing, and assuming you only use the south or west side, that would bring it down to 12kW or so.
Most folk wouldnt have $30k available to spend on a car, let alone just for the system to recharge it !
Such people should buy a used Leaf instead. ($6K) And if they want a solar power system to generate all the power they need to get to work every day (assuming a 10 mile drive) they should buy a 4kW Tesla system for $10K.

A 100% solar powered car plus solar power system for $16K. How much does a new gasoline SUV cost again?

https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/are-t ... est-option

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by Hillhater » Jul 09 2020 1:24am

Jack,..
...you were the one who quoted ..“2 days on my home solar”. ..so now you have seen the problem and moved the goal posts so you have one of those rare jobs that guarantees you daily acccess to a charge point for your (less than $100k ?).. Tesla whilst at work !... you are truly a fortunate man !
But even at weekends , you are restricted in access to use your (less than $100k ). Tesla, if you want to benefit from that “only $23k” tesla solar charging system. !
And i stand by my statement,..the average citizen would struggle to fit 10kW solar on their roof. ( assuming they dont live in an apartment or rental etc.)
But i guess the fortunate few may have the spare funds and roofspace for that scale of solar....
So they have to settle for a cheap used car now and only find $10k for a charger ?
( assuming they dont live in an apartment or rental etc.)
Why would you compare a used small hatchback, with a new SUV ?
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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by boars » Jul 11 2020 9:54am

Snip
Hillhater wrote:
Jul 09 2020 1:24am
for your (less than $100k ?).. Tesla whilst at work !... you are truly a fortunate man !
snip

Why are you acting like Tesla's aren't under 100k?

Even in Australian $ you can pick up a brand new Tesla for under 100k. Tesla 3 in AUD is like 75k? Well below that in USD which is where Jack lives. You're both talking different currencies maybe but even so....

If you want to split hairs you'll point out that he mentioned a 90kWh battery, he might have erred or he may not have, let's assume he didn't. We can agree that no model of car was mentioned (just a make). Both an x and an s have such a battery, I don't know what 3's pack. In USA you can pick up a brand new long range S for $75k USD, spend an extra 5k and you can pickup a long range X.

That's all before we consider the fact he never said he even bought it new or not?
Hillhater wrote:
Jul 09 2020 1:24am
Why would you compare a used small hatchback, with a new SUV ?
Also not sure where anyone is comparing a hatchback vs an SUV. For one Jack doesn't say he has an SUV? Second it's not a comparison, he's just saying people can shop within their budgets?
Hillhater wrote:
Jul 09 2020 1:24am
And i stand by my statement,..the average citizen would struggle to fit 10kW solar on their roof. ( assuming they dont live in an apartment or rental etc.)
You stand by your statement that says an average persons roof isn't big enough for a 10kW system?

Jack seems to have done some googling:
JackFlorey wrote:
Jul 08 2020 10:35pm
The average roof in the US is 1700 square feet.
Google wrote:How many square feet is an average roof?

1,700 square feet

The average residential roof size in the US is about 1,700 square feet or 17 squares, although there are many larger homes with roofs that are twice as large. All professional roofers use “squares” to measure and estimate roofs. A square is equal to 100 square feet of the 3-dimensional roof surface.
How big does a roof need to be for you to fit a 10kW system?

Some countries will be worse, some will be better.
At least in the case of Jack's post, seems pretty accurate for his neck of the woods

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Your mileage may vary

JackFlorey   1 kW

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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by JackFlorey » Jul 11 2020 4:54pm

boars wrote:
Jul 11 2020 9:54am
How big does a roof need to be for you to fit a 10kW system?
Modern panels are 18-20% efficient. Each square foot of roof gets about 100 watts of insolation. So with 18% panels, a 550 sq ft roof would be sufficient. With wastage and fire code issues that means ~800 sq ft.

Now let's use actual panels to design a system. SPR-X22-360 panels by Sunpower are rated 360 watts and are 17.6 square feet. 28 panels will give you 10.08kW and will cover 495 square feet.

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Re: EV charging prices in Europe increase 500%

Post by JackFlorey » Jul 11 2020 5:00pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 09 2020 1:24am
Jack,..
...you were the one who quoted ..“2 days on my home solar”. ..so now you have seen the problem and moved the goal posts so you have one of those rare jobs that guarantees you daily acccess to a charge point for your (less than $100k ?).. Tesla whilst at work !... you are truly a fortunate man !
Nope. I don't work weekends. The car will charge fully during that time.

My place of work also has solar - 416kW to be specific. The "charge points" are regular 120 volt outlets.
But even at weekends , you are restricted in access to use your (less than $100k ).
Usually you are not this dumb.

I have never, ever had to charge that car from 0 to 100%. That would require me to drive about 260 miles without charging and then get home just as the charge hit zero. That's true of 99.9% of people who use an EV.

While at home it is plugged and charging at about 9.6kW. Since I drive about 30 miles a day commuting, and less than that on weekends, it never needs to sit there for two days. The solar more than keeps up.
And i stand by my statement,..the average citizen would struggle to fit 10kW solar on their roof. ( assuming they dont live in an apartment or rental etc.)
You are incorrect - at least for the US.
Why would you compare a used small hatchback, with a new SUV
Because SUV's are extremely popular - and generally unneeded. If you want to get cheap transportation to work, then the Leaf is a great option. If you are made of money, then you might have fun flaunting your wealth and buying a fancy SUV.

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