KTM 200 exc goes electric

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Jellybean   10 µW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by Jellybean » Jun 07 2020 1:23am

Those numbers are super helpful as I plan mine and try to figure out how battery I can stuff in there. What kind of tires are you using on sand? Normal 8-10 paddle ones (assuming you're in the dunes), or the smaller treaded ones like Kenda Sand Mad? Or is your sand like very fine dirt? I plan on riding in the dunes some as well as dirt trails. Do you think you could put more batteries in there if needed or if the frame was slightly larger? Thanks!

thoroughbred   100 W

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by thoroughbred » Jun 07 2020 6:35am

j bjork wrote:
Jun 06 2020 9:34am
Thanks :)
The bike weights about 125kg.
I have only driven endurance tracks, and I have driven about 25km on each occasion. Then there are power left in the battery.

The battery is 3960Wh, but I don't use all the capacity. 80% would be 3168Wh, I think something around there is what I use.
So far my consumption has been around 100Wh/km. On dirt and rocks a bit less, more like 80 something Wh/km.
On sand more like 120Wh/km.

So based on those numbers I get a range of about 26-39 km, very roughly :wink:
Good info. If i calculated things right, this KTM Freeride got 82Wh/km on one of its charge cycles
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com ... pic=8889.0

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Jun 07 2020 11:08am

Jellybean wrote:
Jun 07 2020 1:23am
Those numbers are super helpful as I plan mine and try to figure out how battery I can stuff in there. What kind of tires are you using on sand? Normal 8-10 paddle ones (assuming you're in the dunes), or the smaller treaded ones like Kenda Sand Mad? Or is your sand like very fine dirt? I plan on riding in the dunes some as well as dirt trails. Do you think you could put more batteries in there if needed or if the frame was slightly larger? Thanks!
I haven't ridden on any dunes, only different surfaces on endurance tracks. The sandy one is with dry, dusty sand. If you walked barefoot in it I guess the sand would cover the toes at least in many places, in some places the whole feet and maybe a little part of the leg. But in some places it is hard too. If it was really soft all the time, I dont know. I think both controller and motor would overheat and it would drain the battery rather quick.

I use the same tires all the time, the ones that was on the bike when I bought it:

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Well with this size of batteries I dont think I can get much more on the bike. I don't think I would want to either, because of the wight.

If I could choose I would want a frame that is open in the middle, so you could slide in the battery from the top.
Then make 2 smaller battery's, maybe 2,5kW/h each, and change. And batteries with higher energy density, a shorter lifespan is not that much of a problem on a bike like this I think.

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Jun 07 2020 11:20am

thoroughbred wrote:
Jun 07 2020 6:35am

Good info. If i calculated things right, this KTM Freeride got 82Wh/km on one of its charge cycles
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com ... pic=8889.0
I haven't done the calculations on those numbers, but he measured before the charger. So that is with losses both in the charger and battery, so he seems to have used less than that.

My numbers comes from the controllers calculations of what goes in to the motor.
Maybe losses in the controller too, but I don't think so. I think it is calculated from the phase amps.

So I guess either he was slower, or it is more efficient. Or maybe both.

The consumption seems to rise, today I had about 100Wh/km on a dirt, rocky and a little muddy track. Similar to where I had about 80Wh/km earlier, but not the same track.

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Jun 14 2020 10:32am

I have been looking at sprockets lately. My 10 tooth front sprocket is already pretty worn:

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It also has play on the shaft, and I can see that it is wearing on the axle.

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I tested this sprocket, it seems to be a very tight fit. I didn't fully mounted it, because it would take a little force. And I only borrowed the sprocket. However, that particular sprocket was not available in less than 13 tooth or something like that.

But I did find this one:

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It seems to be the same size, and is at least available in 11 tooth. I want to gear down, not up :?
But I will try it at least, so I ordered a few.

I have also ordered a 80 tooth sprocket for the rear, but if I go with 11 tooth front it will not be much better than what I have now.

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Jun 14 2020 11:23am

I finally got the other psu for the charger, to replace the one I broke.
But I wasent very pleased when I opened the package and got a closer look at it:

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The screws for the front was missing, the plastic was was a little broken too.
Ok, not a big deal. I can take the screws from the broken one.

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The connection is a little bent, and there is a crack in the board.
I don't really like this, but the connection seems ok anyway.

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Some signs of water.
I think these damages together is pretty bad, especially when nothing was said about damage.

But now comes the worst part:

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Hmm, why is there double-sided tape on the coils?

Maybe because it is broken at the bottom!
You can tilt it with a finger. So the tape holds it in place against the cover..
And..

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The metal is broken and glued together! There is a crack in the same place on the other coil too.
I will write the seller and see what he has to say about this.

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Jun 15 2020 11:09am

A bit more on the charger build. I went for separate supplies for the control panels and watt meter, I didn't want to take the risk to try to separate with diodes.

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I cut off the plug, soldered wires to them and glued them together.
I didn't get any more pictures, but it looks like this test mounted:

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Yea, I should have used black glue. Maybe I will paint the glue later.

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Testing, I cant get one control board to control both psu:s.
But it turned out to be a good idea to have one bord for each psu later anyway.

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In use. To the left of the display (bottom in the picture) is a switch to display the voltage of psu 1 or both together. To the right of the display is the control boards.

There are some issues I have to work on some more though. I cant plug in both the psu:s and power for the control boards at the same time, at least one psu goes bananas and put out something like 3V and runs the fan at full speed.
I have to wait until the psu:s is up and running before plugging in the power for the control boards.

I tried to set both psu:s to 45V and 20A to get 90V, but that didn't work very well. One would start go down, and the other up. When the voltage go under about 40V on one psu, the fan goes full speed.

The solution seems to be to set psu 1 to 41,5V and lots of A so it stays there. Then let psu2 do the regulation, meaning setting it to the rest of the required voltage and the amps I want. That is why it wasn't a good idea to control both psu:s with one control board anyway :wink:

Another problem with this is I have to plug the charger to the battery when it is up and running, so no soft start.
Meaning there will be a spark when connected.
I will try to turn off one psu by disconnecting the slot detection pins, and see if it works to turn it on already regulated by connecting the pins again.
I thought I would get that effect by disconnecting/connecting the pre-charge pin, but that didn't have any obvious effect.

larsb   1 MW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by larsb » Jun 15 2020 11:24am

Got my led drivers today, will be interesting to see if i need to do the same.. i will have three in series so the possibility of the drivers fighting each other is not so nice.

leffex   100 W

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by leffex » Jun 15 2020 2:36pm

I bought a finished unit in the 4850g2 shell or whatever this psu is called. there are 0-90v and 0-120v. cost 200 and just works. The same internals intestines as yours but already modded of course. "pondering" how it all works out but the output is true and charging too - so I believe :D

90v x 30a gives me 0.5c charge and about 2880w( i charge to 95 as well but keep it at lower amps,... works too) so I'm really happy as the input may be 3800w which is maximum anyway that cuts the corner. Can't make it faster better whatever without putting two plugs in the wall or try modding one oneself after finding one and reading some china forum how they were modding it with software and diagrams and more. They add value. Then they sell it as we do.
Salestech in an ebike store

larsb   1 MW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by larsb » Jun 15 2020 2:49pm

Link would be appreciated :es:

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Jun 16 2020 7:42am

I have seen them at some time on aliexpress, but I didn't buy any then.
I haven't seen them again, but I haven't really looked lately.

Edit, here is a thread: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=99767

Edit again, a link to the forum where they modded and had software would be very interesting :wink:

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Jun 16 2020 8:27am


leffex   100 W

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by leffex » Jun 17 2020 2:35pm

I guessed it would be problems to make it work so I just bought the finished product. I don't have 20 hours to figure it out. I just needed the smalest maximum charge capability for 1-phase charging and so I got it. Yeah GTK... I think I bought it private but the seller bought it from GTK so drop shipped it to me maybe*.
Salestech in an ebike store

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Jun 18 2020 3:42pm

My charger is kind of finished now:

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It is missing some instructions of how to use, and what is what on the switches.
And I think I should try to find some rubber feet for it, or just make some plastic ones.

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Jun 21 2020 6:24am

I have looked for cameras to be able to record something.
I should have 2, I have found one of them.

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But I haven´t found the charging cable for it.
The other one is a micro usb, the one I need is the same height but narrower.
Anyone here that knows what it is called?
It is about 5mm wide and 2mm high.
I don't know how big the chances are to get it to work, it has been a few years since it was used.

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Jun 28 2020 11:04am

My charger has been working fine, so I went on and changed controller to the votol em 150sp I bought together with the motor.
The specifications are not very impressing with 380pA and 120bA, but luckily it is unlocked :wink:

I thought it wouldn't deliver good pA, but according to another members measurements it does.
And it sure feels like it does. I have it set up for 500pA and 300bA, just like I had on the nuc.

In sport mode this sure has a lot snappier throttle response, and better power at low rpm.
Just what I needed, the peak power has never been a problem so far :D

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I made the brackets for the nucular 24fet. But when I understood that this controller may be interesting too, I modified them so both should fit. But it is not a very good fit on this controller. I would like to mount it further out, more in line with the seat. But that would mean cutting the old one off, and weld on a new one..
I don't feel like stripping the bike, paint and all that at the moment :(

Some other things to play with:

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An 80 tooth rear and some 11 tooth front sprockets.
The 10 tooth I have now is pretty much worn down, and has a lot of play on the shaft.
I think these will be a tight fit, but were not available in 10 tooth.

I think it would be good to go bigger than 80 tooth rear for the gearing, but it is so damn big :confused:
A problem is that it is steel.. It will probably last forever, but I think it weighs 4kg..
It will need some serious lightening.

The bike worked very good today, but I crashed a few times.
At one time I broke my light switch:

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I used the flasher switch as a 3 speed switch, with reverse, mid (or high, a bit confusing in the program) and sport.

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It felt kind of broken, but stayed in sport so I could continue. I think I will just get rid of it, I don't really need high/low beam atm. anyway. I only use sport on the track, but I like to have reverse.

On the picture is also my button for regen, no variable regen on this controller unfortunately. But it worked pretty good so far anyway. It locks the wheel on loose ground, but I usually did that with the variable regen too. It just skids a little on big rocks, so it seems like I found a decent all-round setting.
What I miss the most from the nuc is the very nice display.'

Oh, and another thing. A guy at the track had a ktm freeride, and he let me test it. I was too tired atm to take it to the track, so I just took a quick spin on a dirt road.
And I can say that my bike sure felt more powerful than it, and definitely snappier :D
It was a bit to short test to say to much for sure, but that was the feeling I got anyway.

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macribs   1.21 GW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by macribs » Jun 29 2020 5:31pm

Regarding the rear sprocket, could you make it a two piece? Where the center part is hi grade aluminum and is mounted on the hub, and the steel outer part of the sprocket - the part with the teeth bolts onto the inner part?

I remember the first big brake kits that where available for hi powered cars, back in the days. Big calipers, big rotors made from steel. So heavy. And rotational mass too. Then some smart guys swapped the core of the rotors with alu ones. Weight was prime focus, but another advantage was better heat transfer.

Rear sprocket >80 teeth is like custom made? If you need to get it cnc'd to order anyway I am sure someone can make you a light weight two piece? Likely you could even make the outer part in various teeth count so that you could experiment finding the optimal gearing? Just swap the "outer ring" with a larger or smaller outer ring and keep the same light weight aluminium core-sprocket?

There are two smaller usb connectors iirc. mini usb, micro usb. If it ain't one then likely the other.

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Jun 30 2020 7:47am

Sure, I think it would be possible. It would be very tight between the sprocket and swing arm. But I think I might as well get a custom made all alu sprocket it that case. I will see how bad this one will be when I am finished with it.

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tylerwatts   100 W

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by tylerwatts » Jul 01 2020 6:01pm

Very nice progress Bjork and I'm pleased the Votol is working well.

Cheers
Tyler


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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by slavawasabi » Jul 04 2020 2:08am

Hi Bjork ,
I have KTM SXF250 with same motor and controller bundle from aliexpress .
I'm trying to get correct chain line ( to make front motor bracket ) between front and rear sprocket by lifting motor at the front . My rear sprocket has 84 tooth . The question is : how did you measure the right motor hight ?
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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Jul 04 2020 3:16am

I basically eyeballed it and guessed. I torqued the bolt for the swing arm a little, so I could still move the motor. Then I lowered it as much as I dared before the chain was wearing too much on the chain guard on the swing arm. I removed the shock so I could move the swing to different positions to try to find a position that didn't change the tension on the chain too much.

I later got the plastic frame protector that sits over the foot peg. I saw on that that my position was not far from the original position.
Mine was a little higher, but I think it makes sense because the front sprocket is smaller.
Btw. I think your front sprocket is too big, I think you will want to go 10 or 11tooth.

Nice looking rear sprocket, is it custom made? Or maybe a industrial sprocket that is milled like that?

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by slavawasabi » Jul 04 2020 3:46am

I'm too far from test ride . Still figuring battery boxes .
Front sprocket was delivered with motor , I'll change it to 12t first to start with 1:7 ratio .
Rear sprocket is custom made in Ukraine . Took ages to make and deliver it :)

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by thoroughbred » Jul 04 2020 7:44pm

jb, what specific flux and solder did you end up using when you joined your prismatic bricks together? I have some aluminum busbars that I need to attach bms sense wires onto.

do you prefer the votol or the nucular?

Very interesting comparison to the Freeride power that you mentioned, you have a $10000 bike 8)

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Jul 05 2020 12:08pm

I found the alu flux on ebay I think. From a company called alumsolder.eu
It wasent easy to get any solder flow, not at all like soldering copper or nickel. I'm not very happy with how my solder joints on the alu looks, but it seems to work.

On this ipm motor the votol controller is a lot more aggressive and has more low to mid range power.
It has also the option to set a start and end throttle (0 and full) value. I haven't tried it yet, but I plan to use it to shorten the twist for full throttle a little.

Other then that, the nucular is better on most things. Maybe everything. But these things are so important to me, that I choose the votol for this bike. But I sure miss the nice display from the nuc with its statistics, function buttons and ability to change settings etc. And the variable regen.

The nuc will probably be better on those things after a while, when new updates comes.

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Jul 05 2020 12:52pm

I finally got my bms this week, it only took 3 months..

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The bms itself is kind of small, I thought it would be bigger.

The screen on the display is not very big, but the box is..
Damn, it is ugly :roll:

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I cut off the mounting flanges and tried it on my "dashboard"
It wont even fit, and it is bulky as..

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I think I found a decent solution.

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There were 2 buttons on the side that seems to be needed.
I don't know how you are supposed to get to them when it is mounted though.

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I took them off and soldered on wires instead, for remote buttons.

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I also soldered a pin in this hole:

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It should be the connection for the speedometer.

I took a closer look at the bms:

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I wanted to add a P-, but I think it looks like a bad idea. As far as I can tell there is only one row of holes from the other layer where the mosfets are mounted. My guess is that it will be a weak connection, that I am better off using the C- for the controller.

Bummer, I don't want to risk that the bms disconnects on regen. I also wanted the bms to disconnect the charger from both controller and battery if it goes bananas. Now it will save the battery but fry the controller in that case I suppose.

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A box for the bms, it doesn't fit.. Well I could cut off a bit material under the seat, but I rather move the stuff that are in the way.

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One of the things were the controller. I wanted to move it anyway, it was very tight between the controller and shock.

I cut off most of the front bracket and all of the rear.

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After a lot of fitting and no pictures is a picture of how it looks mounted:

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The front bracket is not finished, that will be another time. I had to finish to be able to ride today.

A bonus picture of the dash with buttons, light switch (to the right) and 3 speed switch.
Actually it is normal (not used) sport and reverse. I think reverse is very useful sometimes, otherwise I could just have connected sport and be done with it.

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After today's ride, it was crazy wet. Extremely muddy and slippery sometimes. It was raining all the time, and has been raining on and off all week.

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