New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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Retrorockit   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Jul 09 2020 9:34am

Something from my truck maintenance background is that when a hot sealed housing encounters cold water the air inside contracts and causes a suction that draws water into the housing.
Maybe a vent tube that runs up high away from any water could help? Something to try.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by spinningmagnets » Jul 09 2020 12:03pm

This was one of the more interesting discoveries concerning moisture migration on a humid day, where rust would develop inside a hubmotor. As the motor cooled down, humid air would be drawn in through the cable bundle of motor phase wires and hall sensor wires. As the motor cooled even more overnight the trapped humid air would condense into liquid droplets.

Adding a vent to the sideplates and sealing the cable with goo seems to fix that. Also, spraying the insides of the motor and controller with a thin conformal dielectric spray has proven to be useful.

The next time the motor gets hot, the trapped liquid from the previous day vaporizes and flows out the vent.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Jul 09 2020 12:29pm

Very useful information indeed. This might be helpful also for displays that show condensation on the inside.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jul 09 2020 4:56pm

spinningmagnets wrote:
Jul 09 2020 12:03pm
This was one of the more interesting discoveries concerning moisture migration on a humid day, where rust would develop inside a hubmotor. As the motor cooled down, humid air would be drawn in through the cable bundle of motor phase wires and hall sensor wires. As the motor cooled even more overnight the trapped humid air would condense into liquid droplets.

Adding a vent to the sideplates and sealing the cable with goo seems to fix that. Also, spraying the insides of the motor and controller with a thin conformal dielectric spray has proven to be useful.

The next time the motor gets hot, the trapped liquid from the previous day vaporizes and flows out the vent.
Agree in an open vented system.

In an unvented, as the TSDZ2 should be, with plenty of volume of spare space inside the sealed system, heat should not have much effect on the atmospheric pressure within the motor and shouldn't be able to draw in moisture from the external air mass.

I would suggest that new the TSDZ2 engine is an unvented structure, some time and km's down the road it becomes a vented system, so do you drill a hole and hope that you do not get water ingress from the mud and rain under pressure from the outside as we hit puddles and the likes as we get in the UK, from new, or do you rely on the manufacturers design and take the unvented route until it becomes a vented system where it will vent back out through the same area that the moisture originally entered from.

Mmmm conundrum and until the latest Mahle engine used by Specialized where it has a Kevlar bladder to take expansion and contraction just for this purpose, all bike engines were experiencing the same problem, did Bosch, Shimano, Brose, Yamaha have a drain port on their engines, umm no. But then an awful lot of those failed with water inhalation. Mmmm even bigger conundrum.

:D :D

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Jul 09 2020 6:01pm

knutselmaaster wrote:
Jul 09 2020 12:29pm
Very useful information indeed. This might be helpful also for displays that show condensation on the inside.
Changing desiccant every 12 months would be too much to ask for.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by amberwolf » Jul 09 2020 6:48pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jul 09 2020 4:56pm
In an unvented, as the TSDZ2 should be, with plenty of volume of spare space inside the sealed system, heat should not have much effect on the atmospheric pressure within the motor and shouldn't be able to draw in moisture from the external air mass.
If you watch Justin_LE's video about water ingress in motors (there's a thread discussing it around here someplace, and it's rpboably on Grin's YT channel) you'll see that this is apparently a common problem, and makes it nearly impossible to seal a motor completely against ingress, as it will even get in along wires thru the conductors and between individual wires in a jacket of several. It can take a lot of cycles to draw the water in...but in a sealed system, there's nowhere for the water that *does* get in to get out. :(

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Jul 10 2020 12:58am

sysrq wrote:
Jul 09 2020 6:01pm
knutselmaaster wrote:
Jul 09 2020 12:29pm
Very useful information indeed. This might be helpful also for displays that show condensation on the inside.
Changing desiccant every 12 months would be too much to ask for.
It wouldn't on hobby projects but it is impossible to do that on the "real" ebikes of my shop's clients though.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Jul 10 2020 2:23am

knutselmaaster wrote:
Jul 10 2020 12:58am
sysrq wrote:
Jul 09 2020 6:01pm
knutselmaaster wrote:
Jul 09 2020 12:29pm
Very useful information indeed. This might be helpful also for displays that show condensation on the inside.
Changing desiccant every 12 months would be too much to ask for.
It wouldn't on hobby projects but it is impossible to do that on the "real" ebikes of my shop's clients though.
Might be easier to do it if there was a desiccant breather or something more appropriate.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jul 10 2020 3:24am

amberwolf wrote:
Jul 09 2020 6:48pm
It can take a lot of cycles to draw the water in...but in a sealed system, there's nowhere for the water that *does* get in to get out. :(
Yup you are right, but then most manufacturers have a maintenance schedule where known problems, such as water collection, can be drained and the motor resealed.

On the TSDZ2 its only a couple of covers that take about 30 minutes to take off, clean and dry, refresh the grease I have suggested covering the main set of wires and entry port at the bottom of the motor.

Drill a hole and everytime I go through a puddle and water is hosed off the front wheel directly onto the side cover, I know there's going to be water inside the case, tip the bike upside down to fix a puncture and I now know the vent hole at the top is now letting water into the motor and electronics compartment itself.

Sorry but I would reckon for my environment, putting a hole purposely into the engine would be not the right thing to do.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Mackiezn » Jul 10 2020 9:15am

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jul 09 2020 4:44am
Yes, the seals on them from the factory are just dust seals and the waterproofing of the whole engine relies on the small seal in the outer chain ring holder and the O ring on the bearing face itself. Once the bearing wears, the axle will move up and down a bit wearing that outer seal out pretty quickly if you start putting it in a muddy environment.

Early motors didn't actually have a full seal on the chainring carrier and only had a dust seal. Those with early motors, a 104bcd carrier is only 25 notes, it will prolong the life of that bearing enormously.
Thanks

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by amberwolf » Jul 10 2020 1:16pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jul 10 2020 3:24am
Yup you are right, but then most manufacturers have a maintenance schedule where known problems, such as water collection, can be drained and the motor resealed.
Perhaps the OEM bikes do; never looked into those for such things. But none of the typical "chinese kits" or bare motors and such I've ever seen or worked with have anything like that available, that I am aware of (not having deliberately searched it out for them; none were ever provided with anything).

Does this kit have such a schedule; and/or do others like it? Where do you find it from the manufacturer?
Sorry but I would reckon for my environment, putting a hole purposely into the engine would be not the right thing to do.
It's different for every situation; you wouldn't generally want one when riding in flooded or rivery paths, for instance. ;) But if water does get in, it's a good idea to get it out as soon as possible, however you choose to do it.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jul 10 2020 1:45pm

I would like to share this video, where I am controlling the TSDZ2 wireless board using my cycling GPS unit. As a test, I am changing assist level on the display and when value is zero it disable the motor voltage (45V from my power supply) and enable the motor voltage when assist level higher than zero:



Soon I hope to have a first working version as the only new thing that is the wireless part, is done!

The board is very cheap, 25€, and simple for DIY, this is the current board and I hope to simplify even a bit more - see the project page:

Image
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless Ebike boar ANT+ and Bluetooth, Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation to help my developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by manoz85 » Jul 10 2020 3:15pm

Anyone had a brass gear shred to pieces? I was out for a ride yesterday and it became very difficult to pedal under assist and felt like I was fighting with the motor. Took the motor apart and took the brass gear out and this is what it looked like, the housing had load of brass "glitter" in it too, some teeth had been cut off.
20200710_204419.jpg
20200710_204419.jpg (355.13 KiB) Viewed 994 times
I replaced it with a blue gear and the ride today was fine except near the end when it started resisting like before but I switched off the assist and rode home.

What could have caused this?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jul 10 2020 3:19pm

manoz85 wrote:
Jul 10 2020 3:15pm
Anyone had a brass gear shred to pieces? I was out for a ride yesterday and it became very difficult to pedal under assist and felt like I was fighting with the motor. Took the motor apart and took the brass gear out and this is what it looked like, the housing had load of brass "glitter" in it too, some teeth had been cut off.

20200710_204419.jpg

I replaced it with a blue gear and the ride today was fine except near the end when it started resisting like before but I switched off the assist and rode home.

What could have caused this?
I would say it was the motor shaft to eat both gears, motor shaft seems to be of a very strong metal, more strong than the brass.

I would say there is some extra space / play that makes or the gear or the motor shaft come out of place, even for a bit. May the motor bearings on the shaft have issues?

And be careful to not break the motor shaft on your assembling and tests, because the motor is a bit expensive - see the wiki about this.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless Ebike boar ANT+ and Bluetooth, Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation to help my developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by manoz85 » Jul 10 2020 3:45pm

casainho wrote:
Jul 10 2020 3:19pm
manoz85 wrote:
Jul 10 2020 3:15pm
Anyone had a brass gear shred to pieces? I was out for a ride yesterday and it became very difficult to pedal under assist and felt like I was fighting with the motor. Took the motor apart and took the brass gear out and this is what it looked like, the housing had load of brass "glitter" in it too, some teeth had been cut off.

20200710_204419.jpg

I replaced it with a blue gear and the ride today was fine except near the end when it started resisting like before but I switched off the assist and rode home.

What could have caused this?
I would say it was the motor shaft to eat both gears, motor shaft seems to be of a very strong metal, more strong than the brass.

I would say there is some extra space / play that makes or the gear or the motor shaft come out of place, even for a bit. May the motor bearings on the shaft have issues?

And be careful to not break the motor shaft on your assembling and tests, because the motor is a bit expensive - see the wiki about this.
Thanks for the response, could the bearing that the end of the motor shaft fits into be worn? Is there a better bearing I can replace it with?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by devboy-greg » Jul 10 2020 4:12pm

manoz85 wrote:
Jul 10 2020 3:45pm
Thanks for the response, could the bearing that the end of the motor shaft fits into be worn? Is there a better bearing I can replace it with?
It could be this bearing on the pinion gear.
tsdz2-pinion.jpg
tsdz2-pinion.jpg (35.76 KiB) Viewed 984 times
I fitted a brand new motor to a bike about a month ago which started whining after about 5 miles, when I got back I stripped my brand new motor to find this pinion wobbling about like a jockey's elbow! Fortunately I had a spare bearing in stock.

I've had no problems since it's replacement. I plan to replace most of the bearings in my 2 motors as good quality bearings aren't that expensive and are easy to source.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by manoz85 » Jul 10 2020 6:14pm

devboy-greg wrote:
Jul 10 2020 4:12pm
manoz85 wrote:
Jul 10 2020 3:45pm
Thanks for the response, could the bearing that the end of the motor shaft fits into be worn? Is there a better bearing I can replace it with?
It could be this bearing on the pinion gear.

tsdz2-pinion.jpg

I fitted a brand new motor to a bike about a month ago which started whining after about 5 miles, when I got back I stripped my brand new motor to find this pinion wobbling about like a jockey's elbow! Fortunately I had a spare bearing in stock.

I've had no problems since it's replacement. I plan to replace most of the bearings in my 2 motors as good quality bearings aren't that expensive and are easy to source.
Thanks I'll have to look into it, is that removed via circlip?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by devboy-greg » Jul 11 2020 5:01am

manoz85 wrote:
Jul 10 2020 6:14pm
devboy-greg wrote:
Jul 10 2020 4:12pm
manoz85 wrote:
Jul 10 2020 3:45pm
Thanks for the response, could the bearing that the end of the motor shaft fits into be worn? Is there a better bearing I can replace it with?
It could be this bearing on the pinion gear.

I fitted a brand new motor to a bike about a month ago which started whining after about 5 miles, when I got back I stripped my brand new motor to find this pinion wobbling about like a jockey's elbow! Fortunately I had a spare bearing in stock.

I've had no problems since it's replacement. I plan to replace most of the bearings in my 2 motors as good quality bearings aren't that expensive and are easy to source.
Thanks I'll have to look into it, is that removed via circlip?
I can't exactly remember, but I think it's a gentle tap out.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Mackiezn » Jul 12 2020 7:09am

devboy-greg wrote:
Jul 10 2020 4:12pm
manoz85 wrote:
Jul 10 2020 3:45pm
Thanks for the response, could the bearing that the end of the motor shaft fits into be worn? Is there a better bearing I can replace it with?
It could be this bearing on the pinion gear.

I fitted a brand new motor to a bike about a month ago which started whining after about 5 miles, when I got back I stripped my brand new motor to find this pinion wobbling about like a jockey's elbow! Fortunately I had a spare bearing in stock.

I've had no problems since it's replacement. I plan to replace most of the bearings in my 2 motors as good quality bearings aren't that expensive and are easy to source.
Do you remember the specs of the bearing?
I noticed the teeth on my brass gear were a little indented when I opened up my motor.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by drpop » Jul 12 2020 9:45am

Hi folks. I'm used to riding a front wheel hub conversion as a tarmac-only commuter and have dropped enough weight (35 kg) in the last few months that I've recently added a TSDZ2 to a hardtail mountain bike so-as-to give me a 'bit of help' in enjoying some offroad gravel trails... not 'real mountain biking', but certainly, there will be mud. It rains. I'm in Scotland. I'm 'over 50' - 110kg; aiming for 95 by end of the year, and handy enough at hobby levels of mechanical and electrical engineering.

I bought a TSDZ2 48v 750 - & - 48V 13AH Battery and have an 850C on its way in the next few weeks. I have the heat sensor, soldering tools, and shrink wraps arriving soon.

In the meantime, I've successfully fitted the motor, brake sensors, throttle, and the latest vlcd5-version of the opensource firmware. Reading here and scared of killing me new motor, I configured to what I thought would be fairly conservative settings and a quick test ride around my hilly local area.

Image


Being wary of my weight and the reports of breaking the torque sensor I never really went REALLY heavy on the pedals the same way as I used to on the wheel hub... Still, with considered gearing and a 'spirited' amount of legwork, it got me up and round a few places that I would have previously have needed to get off and walk. I touch tested the motor a few times for heat, but it never got all that hot at any time. It felt really good to ride!

However. The 'live' KPH invariably reads 00:00 except when I toggle the lights when it shows an error code. switching the lights off makes the kph show as 6.9 for a few seconds, then it settles. This doesn't appear to otherwise affect anything and I am also getting an average KPH reading. The light/error code issue is a known issue in the wiki, but the lack of live kph worries me a bit.. is this going to be a problem?

Also.. which would kick in first... the 500w limit or the 15A... at 48V would this effectively cut of at 10A at all times?

overall though... so pleased with things so far... just a bit skint and wary :D

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » Jul 12 2020 11:08am

drpop wrote:
Jul 12 2020 9:45am
..... Reading here and scared of killing me new motor, I configured to what I thought would be fairly conservative settings ....
.......... I touch tested the motor a few times for heat, but it never got all that hot at any time.....
....Also.. which would kick in first... the 500w limit or the 15A... at 48V would this effectively cut of at 10A at all times?
....
If you haven't installed heatconductive material inside the motorcasing, you can't trust the feel of heat by touching the case.

Your settings are indeed conservative. With 500W limit and full battery (54V) you will have about 9A max (500/54) and with almost empty battery (39V) you pull about 13A max. (500/39) out of the battery. You will never reach the 15A limit.
For that, the limit off power is 600W (11A-15A limit). That is about 12,5A for 48V for most of the time.

For data reading options on display I refer to the display operation manual (it looks to me that 0:00 is the temperature (if no sensor) and 6.9 some other data, maybe battery 69%)

About breaking the axle, that could happen with offroad biking standing on the pedals with jumps. Imho on roads that risc is a lot less.


,
Last edited by Elinx on Jul 13 2020 5:32am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by drpop » Jul 12 2020 12:30pm

>For data reading options on display I refer to the display operation manual (it looks to me that 0:00 is the temperature and 6.9 some other data)

Phew. You're a star! I'd convinced my self i'd fried something. This makes sense just need to work out how to show current kph now!

Is there a rule-of-thumb in with managing the heat? Is it a matter of keeping the average wattage down? I'm guessing higher V and lower A would be better for this?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » Jul 12 2020 1:03pm

drpop wrote:
Jul 12 2020 12:30pm
.....

Is there a rule-of-thumb in with managing the heat? ..... higher V and lower A would be better for this?
Not really a rule of thumb, but you are right about the lower A, what is some people do with a 36V motor combined with 52V battery.
With 36V 350W nominal you have about 10A, with 52V and same 10A you have 520W power and probably with same heat. Ofcourse it wiil be not exactly the same, because there will be more mechanical heat with the higher possible rpm.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ilu » Jul 13 2020 6:46am

drpop wrote:
Jul 12 2020 12:30pm
>For data reading options on display I refer to the display operation manual (it looks to me that 0:00 is the temperature and 6.9 some other data)

Phew. You're a star! I'd convinced my self i'd fried something. This makes sense just need to work out how to show current kph now!

Is there a rule-of-thumb in with managing the heat? Is it a matter of keeping the average wattage down? I'm guessing higher V and lower A would be better for this?
The speed should be live on the screen most of the time, if it isn't, check the aligment of the speed sensor and magnet. Note that the sensor is not at the round part of the plastic housing but in the more narrow sector showing a tiny arrow. The magnet should pass this within few millimeters.

When you turn on the lights the error code E02 means you can now show different parameters which are configured on the advanced page. When you hover mouse cursor over the fields you can see a table of what each number means. There you can also set the amount and duration of values shown.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by drpop » Jul 13 2020 7:15am

ilu wrote:
Jul 13 2020 6:46am
check the aligment of the speed sensor and magnet. Note that the sensor is not at the round part of the plastic housing but in the more narrow sector showing a tiny arrow. The magnet should pass this within few millimeters.
I've had at from 2mm away all the way up to around 25mm and still no luck...i'll keep trying. knowing that the 'error codes' are actually usefull features is great though!

---

My heat sensor arrived this morning and i hope to install this evening. I have the 8 pin 'with throttle' and i understand that i can cut-and-splice into the throttle wire. Am I safe to do this with the 5V as well? What about the Ground? should i just t-splice into the cables like in the wiki? Am i safe to cut the ground to the lcd?

Thx.

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