Hubmonster teardown

Electric Motors and Controllers
larsb   1 MW

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Re: Hubmonster teardown

Post by larsb » Sep 07 2020 3:08pm

John probably knows better what can be concluded from the wires, if there’s no identification then you could do some trials:

The two sets of windings will be isolated. Measure which ones and separate them. Both sets of halls will be active off course but they can be seen as matching two separate motors, one motor will run with higher noload amps with the others halls so if you get one motor to run decently (by trial) then the rest is easy, switch the halls and see if noload is improved.

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Re: Hubmonster teardown

Post by John in CR » Sep 07 2020 7:27pm

ridethelightning wrote:
Sep 07 2020 7:22am
i have a hubmonster i never opened, i didnt come with a controller. is there some method for figuring out which halls and phases match up? i like the sound of the nucular controllers, i have some adapttos i could use but i suspect the nucular ones are better for tuning.
Running decently isn't enough. I ran my bike up to 103mph with the halls going to the wrong set of phases, but I could tell by a bit of noise on take-off and a bit less low speed torque that it wasn't right. When I switched them and figured out the combos (which you have to do one controller by itself at a time) then I hit 107mph and the motor ran cooler. I had to reharness after laying it down with no axle end protection and turned the harness into a spaghetti bowl of copper with no way to identify anything.

If think another way to tell if the hall cables are crossed is based on Kv if you have the same version of HubMonster that I have. The correct Kv is a bit over 18rpm/volt and with them crossed I'm pretty sure it goes above 19 with the advanced timing.

When you peel a bit of the harness cover back, one of the contained hall cables should that a piece of green heat shrink on it, which goes to the yellow-green-blue set of phases. Also, if you have the factory 10 pin connector still on, post a pick of the end, and I can tell you which row goes to which set of phase wires. I mark one set with red electrical tape and the other with green, so I never lose track.

For all I know, the Nucs hall correction as part of the auto setup function may be able to adjust for the effect of having them crossed. If so, then there'd definitely be no worries about crossed or not. Check with Vasily before trying. Though the colors aren't standard red, black, green, yellow and blue in the hall cables, the one closest to red is +5V and the one closest to black is negative. The other 3 don't matter until you have a valid forward combo. There are actually 6 conductors in the hall cable, with the white unused. I use the 2 whites from the hall cables for an extra thermistor for temp sensing.

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Re: Hubmonster teardown

Post by PtheDude » Sep 08 2020 3:50am

Roughly 7-1/4” across, but because they say a pic is worth a thousand words:
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[attachment=5]5



My Zapino has a different shell, looks similar, but larger or “beefier”. Pic tomorrow. Please forgive the pic dupes, it’s late and time for bedtime...
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John in CR   100 GW

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Re: Hubmonster teardown

Post by John in CR » Sep 08 2020 7:42pm

Sorry I forgot today, but tomorrow I will measure the diameter at the covers when I go to the shop. Based on the wheel size and number of bolts on the covers, I'm pretty sure the 2 pictured are 2 versions of the MidMonster.

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ridethelightning   1 MW

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Re: Hubmonster teardown

Post by ridethelightning » Sep 10 2020 6:54am

here are some pics. not sure what bike it came off, probably a zap.
does that look like the stock connector you spoke of?
iv stripped the stock paint back and was planning to coat it black, but as i said ,i havn't opened the covers as yet.
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phil o' dendron   10 mW

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Re: Hubmonster teardown

Post by phil o' dendron » Sep 10 2020 2:53pm

Take a close look on the connector shown on the last picture.
Are there numbers from 1 to 10?

Pins 1 to 5 are for the first set of halls.

On mine there was a "nose", a hook that secures the connector.
First set of halls is on the side of that hook.
Should be the cables on the right side of the last picture.

I got a "e-fun XM-5000" scooter, wire colors are the same as on your pictures.

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Re: Hubmonster teardown

Post by John in CR » Sep 10 2020 5:32pm

phil o' dendron wrote:
Sep 10 2020 2:53pm
Take a close look on the connector shown on the last picture.
Are there numbers from 1 to 10?

Pins 1 to 5 are for the first set of halls.

On mine there was a "nose", a hook that secures the connector.
First set of halls is on the side of that hook.
Should be the cables on the right side of the last picture.

I got a "e-fun XM-5000" scooter, wire colors are the same as on your pictures.
I need to see the other end of the connector to tell you which row goes with which set of phases, the wire entry end is meaningless other than to say which are +5V and neg.

Also, unless it was done differently for the setup pictured, the factory intentionally crossed some of the hall Y,G,B wires, so you can't just plug a connector into one controller and then swap it to the other controller and have both ways spin up. It's probably part of the reason even the factory guys couldn't get their own motors running with dual controllers...only the stock double controllers.

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ridethelightning   1 MW

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Re: Hubmonster teardown

Post by ridethelightning » Sep 11 2020 8:41am

John in CR wrote:
Sep 10 2020 5:32pm
phil o' dendron wrote:
Sep 10 2020 2:53pm
Take a close look on the connector shown on the last picture.
Are there numbers from 1 to 10?

Pins 1 to 5 are for the first set of halls.

On mine there was a "nose", a hook that secures the connector.
First set of halls is on the side of that hook.
Should be the cables on the right side of the last picture.

I got a "e-fun XM-5000" scooter, wire colors are the same as on your pictures.
I need to see the other end of the connector to tell you which row goes with which set of phases, the wire entry end is meaningless other than to say which are +5V and neg.

Also, unless it was done differently for the setup pictured, the factory intentionally crossed some of the hall Y,G,B wires, so you can't just plug a connector into one controller and then swap it to the other controller and have both ways spin up. It's probably part of the reason even the factory guys couldn't get their own motors running with dual controllers...only the stock double controllers.
im guessing the blue, green, yellow phases are one set, the white,red,black are the other?
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ridethelightning   1 MW

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Re: Hubmonster teardown

Post by ridethelightning » Sep 11 2020 8:43am

here is the pins. i'm guessing the yellow,blue, green phases are one set, the red, white, black the other?
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Re: Hubmonster teardown

Post by John in CR » Sep 11 2020 1:18pm

Top row in that last pic above is for the YGB set of phases.

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ridethelightning   1 MW

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Re: Hubmonster teardown

Post by ridethelightning » Sep 12 2020 6:21am

John in CR wrote:
Sep 11 2020 1:18pm
Top row in that last pic above is for the YGB set of phases.
many thanks John. thats sorted another hurdle for getting my hubmonster project going! next will be figuring out how to stuff the motor into/underneath the frame i want to use, or re-fab the whole rear section.. :)

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Re: Hubmonster teardown

Post by John in CR » Sep 12 2020 9:29am

ridethelightning wrote:
Sep 12 2020 6:21am
John in CR wrote:
Sep 11 2020 1:18pm
Top row in that last pic above is for the YGB set of phases.
many thanks John. thats sorted another hurdle for getting my hubmonster project going! next will be figuring out how to stuff the motor into/underneath the frame i want to use, or re-fab the whole rear section.. :)
If not in wheel I hope you mean on the swingarm as close to the pivot as possible. Mounted on the frame 1. Makes for a noisier chain and 2. Chain pull will act on the suspension much more than typical motorcycles due to the large drive sprocket of small gear reduction, and if you route the chain closer to the pivot then it will make regen act on the suspension more. Mounted to the swingarm gives you anti-squat forces on acceleration and anti-dive during regen just like a hubmotor does, and the effect increases with pivot point height.

My current build for street and trail riding has the HubMonster close enough to the pivot for an effect on unsprung weight of 2.75kg. I'm running 21" moto wheels with a 28t front 57t rear reduction, so it's like my motor weighs less than 3kg and has all that torque and rpm running in a 13" OD wheel. Even and conservative controller settings I get tremendous acceleration up to a max of 87kph without any field weakening with a gearing that will enable it to easily climb anything I have the guts to point the bike up without heat worries. The chain noise is even better than I'd hoped, since these large tires are more quiet than my other bikes, and I still can't hear the chain at all while riding.

I've found using donor frames to be too problematic to fit batteries well, so I prefer to keep a bit of the front of the donor and fab everything else. On my next one I'll lay everything out to get the motor axle either concentric to the pivot or very close to help shorten the wheelbase.

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Re: Hubmonster teardown

Post by John in CR » Sep 12 2020 5:53pm

The diameter of the cover of the MidMonsters I have is 197mm, and the HubMonster cover is 208mm. The diameter of HubMonster's stator is 180mm, but I forget what the diameter of MidMonsters' stator is.

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Re: Hubmonster teardown

Post by ridethelightning » Sep 14 2020 6:49am

John in CR wrote:
Sep 12 2020 9:29am
ridethelightning wrote:
Sep 12 2020 6:21am
John in CR wrote:
Sep 11 2020 1:18pm
Top row in that last pic above is for the YGB set of phases.
many thanks John. thats sorted another hurdle for getting my hubmonster project going! next will be figuring out how to stuff the motor into/underneath the frame i want to use, or re-fab the whole rear section.. :)
If not in wheel I hope you mean on the swingarm as close to the pivot as possible. Mounted on the frame 1. Makes for a noisier chain and 2. Chain pull will act on the suspension much more than typical motorcycles due to the large drive sprocket of small gear reduction, and if you route the chain closer to the pivot then it will make regen act on the suspension more. Mounted to the swingarm gives you anti-squat forces on acceleration and anti-dive during regen just like a hubmotor does, and the effect increases with pivot point height.

My current build for street and trail riding has the HubMonster close enough to the pivot for an effect on unsprung weight of 2.75kg. I'm running 21" moto wheels with a 28t front 57t rear reduction, so it's like my motor weighs less than 3kg and has all that torque and rpm running in a 13" OD wheel. Even and conservative controller settings I get tremendous acceleration up to a max of 87kph without any field weakening with a gearing that will enable it to easily climb anything I have the guts to point the bike up without heat worries. The chain noise is even better than I'd hoped, since these large tires are more quiet than my other bikes, and I still can't hear the chain at all while riding.

I've found using donor frames to be too problematic to fit batteries well, so I prefer to keep a bit of the front of the donor and fab everything else. On my next one I'll lay everything out to get the motor axle either concentric to the pivot or very close to help shorten the wheelbase.
for the reasons you mentioned im planning on running the motor as a hubmotor on a hardtail. sorry, i should have been more specific, i need to adapt the rear triangle to fit the motor as its too wide, but being smaller diameter than the other motors the bike has run, it may work if i make new dropout adaptor and drop the wheel under the frame more if that makes sense

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Re: Hubmonster teardown

Post by John in CR » Sep 15 2020 12:15am

ridethelightning wrote:
Sep 14 2020 6:49am
...for the reasons you mentioned im planning on running the motor as a hubmotor on a hardtail. sorry, i should have been more specific, i need to adapt the rear triangle to fit the motor as its too wide, but being smaller diameter than the other motors the bike has run, it may work if i make new dropout adaptor and drop the wheel under the frame more if that makes sense
It's a lot of motor weight for a hardtail. Unless the roads are perfect, you'll definitely want a sprung seat, because otherwise sizable bumps or potholes will hammer that weight right up your spine. That was my only issue with my longtail cargo bike that had no rear suspension, and the hubbie on it wasn't much heavier than a Leaf motor...more than just small bumps were quite jarring. I quickly learned to bend forward in advance, so my back wasn't in a straight line with the motor, so it would bend like a fishing rod vs standing a rod straight up on the ground and hitting down on the end with a hammer.

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Re: Hubmonster teardown

Post by Voltron » Sep 15 2020 12:32am

I have the long travel one on the left... It made a night and day difference on my longtail non suspended hubbie. The rare time something was much much better than expected on the ride feel outcome
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ridethelightning   1 MW

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Re: Hubmonster teardown

Post by ridethelightning » Sep 15 2020 6:36am

John in CR wrote:
Sep 15 2020 12:15am
ridethelightning wrote:
Sep 14 2020 6:49am
...for the reasons you mentioned im planning on running the motor as a hubmotor on a hardtail. sorry, i should have been more specific, i need to adapt the rear triangle to fit the motor as its too wide, but being smaller diameter than the other motors the bike has run, it may work if i make new dropout adaptor and drop the wheel under the frame more if that makes sense
It's a lot of motor weight for a hardtail. Unless the roads are perfect, you'll definitely want a sprung seat, because otherwise sizable bumps or potholes will hammer that weight right up your spine. That was my only issue with my longtail cargo bike that had no rear suspension, and the hubbie on it wasn't much heavier than a Leaf motor...more than just small bumps were quite jarring. I quickly learned to bend forward in advance, so my back wasn't in a straight line with the motor, so it would bend like a fishing rod vs standing a rod straight up on the ground and hitting down on the end with a hammer.
roger that. my prospective candidate is a cargo bike. its had a 5404 on it, now has a cromotor. does get a tad rowdy on potholes, i tend to stand on the pedals and bend knees to cushion it, but very nice to ride on good roads. im planning a sprung pan seat, board tracker style, for it.

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Re: Hubmonster teardown

Post by John in CR » Sep 15 2020 11:48am

ridethelightning wrote:
Sep 15 2020 6:36am
im planning a sprung pan seat, board tracker style, for it.
That's the ticket. Someday I'll track down one of those old steel tractor seats, the kind you could sit on comfortably all day long. Add a cheap bike shock for extra cush and I'll be ready to build a big hog ebike.

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Re: Hubmonster teardown

Post by PtheDude » Sep 21 2020 9:38pm

John in CR wrote:
Sep 12 2020 5:53pm
The diameter of the cover of the MidMonsters I have is 197mm, and the HubMonster cover is 208mm. The diameter of HubMonster's stator is 180mm, but I forget what the diameter of MidMonsters' stator is.
John, what is the difference between them? is the mid monster that much less exploitable? I’m in these things quite a bit, shipping them isn’t cheap, what’s the relative value ? Ideas? Speculations?

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Re: Hubmonster teardown

Post by John in CR » Sep 22 2020 6:55pm

PtheDude wrote:
Sep 21 2020 9:38pm
John in CR wrote:
Sep 12 2020 5:53pm
The diameter of the cover of the MidMonsters I have is 197mm, and the HubMonster cover is 208mm. The diameter of HubMonster's stator is 180mm, but I forget what the diameter of MidMonsters' stator is.
John, what is the difference between them? is the mid monster that much less exploitable? I’m in these things quite a bit, shipping them isn’t cheap, what’s the relative value ? Ideas? Speculations?
MidMonsters are essentially about 1/3 less motor. All of those I've seen have lower Kv (14ish) and run a smaller wheel. That makes them less capable of extreme speed. The lower Kv means more torque/amp and the smaller wheel means more thrust at the wheel, so they are easier and cheaper to get pretty extreme on the launch with a top speed with 30-31s in the 65-70mph range. My little commuter rocket that I did a 30 mile commute on 16" OD scooter tires for almost 2 years running a 31s pack at 75A battery side per controller was one of funnest ebikes to ride. The highway portion had a few well spaced red lights and I used to slow to intentionally catch the lights so I could slaughter cars and motorcycles.
Here's a clip all shot from aboard that MidMonster powered scoot:

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Re: Hubmonster teardown

Post by TorgueRPM » Oct 18 2020 9:38pm

John in CR wrote:
Sep 12 2020 9:29am
ridethelightning wrote:
Sep 12 2020 6:21am
John in CR wrote:
Sep 11 2020 1:18pm
Top row in that last pic above is for the YGB set of phases.
many thanks John. thats sorted another hurdle for getting my hubmonster project going! next will be figuring out how to stuff the motor into/underneath the frame i want to use, or re-fab the whole rear section.. :)
If not in wheel I hope you mean on the swingarm as close to the pivot as possible. Mounted on the frame 1. Makes for a noisier chain and 2. Chain pull will act on the suspension much more than typical motorcycles due to the large drive sprocket of small gear reduction, and if you route the chain closer to the pivot then it will make regen act on the suspension more. Mounted to the swingarm gives you anti-squat forces on acceleration and anti-dive during regen just like a hubmotor does, and the effect increases with pivot point height.

My current build for street and trail riding has the HubMonster close enough to the pivot for an effect on unsprung weight of 2.75kg. I'm running 21" moto wheels with a 28t front 57t rear reduction, so it's like my motor weighs less than 3kg and has all that torque and rpm running in a 13" OD wheel. Even and conservative controller settings I get tremendous acceleration up to a max of 87kph without any field weakening with a gearing that will enable it to easily climb anything I have the guts to point the bike up without heat worries. The chain noise is even better than I'd hoped, since these large tires are more quiet than my other bikes, and I still can't hear the chain at all while riding.

I've found using donor frames to be too problematic to fit batteries well, so I prefer to keep a bit of the front of the donor and fab everything else. On my next one I'll lay everything out to get the motor axle either concentric to the pivot or very close to help shorten the wheelbase.
Have any pictures of the mid mount setup?

Edit: Nevermind, I found your thread

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