Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

General Discussion about electric vehicles.
sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Sep 07 2020 11:41pm

The human mind can dream up many more ideas than what can exist in the real world. Round trip Hydrogen is probably still well under 40% efficient and very expensive and makes no sense whatsoever for grid scale stationary storage. The unfortunate reality is that future energy availability is going to be less per capita and increasingly intermittent. If too many people live where it is too hot or too cold they will have to end up migrating to somewhere else.

sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Sep 08 2020 2:19pm

William E. Reese: "The modern world is deeply addicted to fossil fuels and green energy is no substitute."
"As long as the growth in demand exceeds additions to supply from renewables, the latter cannot displace fossil fuels even in electricity generation — and remember, electricity is still less than 20 per cent of total energy consumption, with the rest being supplied mostly by fossil fuels."
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https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2019/11/11/ ... ace-Facts/
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"the current pace of shift away from fossil fuels and lower energy consumption is not remotely adequate. In fact, global energy use and carbon emissions are rising exponentially at the same rate they were four decades ago."
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Which presents a conundrum: Reducing fossil fuel use on a vastly sped-up schedule, in the absence of adequate substitutes and a comprehensive wind-down plan, would soon produce some combination of inadequate energy supplies, broken supply lines, reduced production, declining incomes, rising inequality, widespread unemployment, food and other resource shortages, at least local famines, civil unrest, abandoned cities, mass migrations, collapsed economies and geopolitical chaos.
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https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2019/11/12/ ... list-Memo/

sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Sep 08 2020 2:34pm

"And no, the currently proposed Green New Deal won’t do it.

Here, then, is what an effective “Green New Deal” might look like:

1. Formal recognition of the end of material growth and the need to reduce the human ecological footprint;

2. Acknowledgement that, as long as we remain in overshoot — exploiting essential ecosystems faster than they can regenerate — sustainable production/consumption means less production/consumption;

3. Recognition of the theoretical and practical difficulties/impossibility of an all-green quantitatively equivalent energy transition;

4. Assistance to communities, families and individuals to facilitate the adoption of sustainable lifestyles (even North Americans lived happily on half the energy per capita in the 1960s that we use today);

5. Identification and implementation of strategies (e.g., taxes, fines) to encourage/force individuals and corporations to eliminate unnecessary fossil fuel use and reduce energy waste (half or more of energy “consumed” is wasted through inefficiencies and carelessness);

6. Programs to retrain the workforce for constructive employment in the new survival economy;

7. Policies to restructure the global and national economies to remain within the remaining “allowable” carbon budget while developing/improving sustainable energy alternatives;

8. Processes to allocate the remaining carbon budget (through rationing, quotas, etc.) fairly to essential uses only, such as food production, space/water heating, inter-urban transportation;

9. Plans to reduce the need for interregional transportation and increase regional resilience by re-localizing essential economic activity (de-globalization);

10. Recognition that equitable sustainability requires fiscal mechanisms for income/wealth redistribution;

11. A global population strategy to enable a smooth descent to the two to three billion that could live comfortably indefinitely within the biophysical means of nature.

“What? A deliberate contraction? That’s not going to happen!” I hear you say. And you are probably correct. It should by now be clear that H. sapiens is not primarily a rational species."

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Sep 08 2020 7:12pm

?? ..that doesnt look like a winning political ticket ?.
And You seem to have missed the primary essential for any of that to happen..
.... Major global and civil conflict to impose Global Military dictatorship for the New World Order !
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JackFlorey   10 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by JackFlorey » Sep 08 2020 10:26pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Sep 07 2020 11:41pm
Round trip Hydrogen is probably still well under 40% efficient and very expensive and makes no sense whatsoever for grid scale stationary storage.
Agreed. Only way hydrogen works is if it's produced by high temperature reactors doing thermal dissociation of water. That allows scale to vastly increase and prices to come way down. Other than that it will remain a niche fuel.

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Dauntless   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Sep 09 2020 12:04am

Once we've burned up all the hydrogen, how do we get water back?
Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
- Arthur C. Clarke

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Sep 09 2020 12:21am

Dauntless wrote:
Sep 09 2020 12:04am
Once we've burned up all the hydrogen, how do we get water back?
As hydrogen “burns up”.. it combines with oxygen to produce a handy gas byproduct ! :wink:
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Sep 09 2020 1:24am

JackFlorey wrote:
Sep 08 2020 10:26pm
. Only way hydrogen works is if it's produced by high temperature reactors doing thermal dissociation of water. That allows scale to vastly increase and prices to come way down. Other than that it will remain a niche fuel.
Jack, Thermal Dissociation is still very much a experimental technology with many issues to resolve.
Are you aware of any developments that would progress this tech to a commercial proposition with H2 prices similar to those claimed (<$5/kg, ) by the electrolyser manufacturers ?
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Dauntless   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Sep 14 2020 3:50pm

Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
- Arthur C. Clarke

JackFlorey   10 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by JackFlorey » Sep 14 2020 3:57pm

Dauntless wrote:
Sep 09 2020 12:04am
Once we've burned up all the hydrogen, how do we get water back?
That is a perfect example of your level of understanding of the world.

(Now quick - claim you knew the answer all along, and were joking!)

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Dauntless   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Sep 14 2020 8:46pm

JackFlorey wrote:
Sep 14 2020 3:57pm
(Now quick - claim you knew the answer all along, and were joking!)
Is that what you would do? How your mind works. I would have expected you to offer the most ridiculous explanation and then just insult anyone who knew better.

Maybe you can redeem yourself by explaining how brand new hydrogen is first created, rather than how it is extracted.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
- Arthur C. Clarke

sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Sep 14 2020 9:15pm

Approximately 15 billion years ago the universe began as an extremely hot and dense region of radiant energy, the Big Bang. Immediately after its formation, it began to expand and cool. The radiant energy produced quark-antiquarks and electron-positrons, and other particle-antiparticle pairs.At first quarks and electrons had only a fleeting existence as a plasma because the annihilation removed them as fast as they were created. As the universe cooled, the quarks condensed into nucleons. This process was similar to the way steam condenses to liquid droplets as water vapor cools. Further expansion and cooling allowed the neutrons and some of the protons to fuse to helium nuclei. The 73% hydrogen and 25% helium abundances that exists throughout the universe today comes from that condensation period during the first three minutes. The 2% of nuclei more massive than helium present in the universe today were created later in stars.
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https://www2.lbl.gov/abc/wallchart/chap ... 0reactions.
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JackFlorey   10 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by JackFlorey » Sep 14 2020 10:00pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Sep 14 2020 9:15pm
The 2% of nuclei more massive than helium present in the universe today were created later in stars.
And - fun fact - the only place in the universe that elements heavier than iron can be made is in the heart of an exploding supernova.

So all those useful metals for wiring and alloying - copper, nickel, tin, lead. And all those elements we like for IC's - germanium, selenium, gallium. Those elements useful for batteries - mercury, cobalt, zinc, silver. Uranium. Even gold. All came from the middle of a supernova. A supernova that blasted all of them into space, where they made their way into a big protodisk of dust and hydrogen, and eventually condensed into our solar system.

People argue that EV's are never going to make it because there's not enough cobalt. I'm amazed we've found as much as we have.

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Dauntless   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Sep 15 2020 6:16pm

sendler2112 wrote:
Sep 14 2020 9:15pm
Approximately 15 billion years ago the universe began . . . .
But does that mean ALL hydrogen we'll ever see was created then? The hydrogen coming from rotting vegetables, dead animals, etc., that's existing since the big bang and there's no new? So when you separate N hydrogen from oxygen, burn some and 10% x N goes back to being water in the process, we lose that other 90% of the water and there can be no replacement? Umm, you understand that to be FAR WORSE than global warming, etc., right?

I wasn't a botany major, I know it sounds like plants create trace amounts of copper, we use it in bodily functions when we eat vegetables, somehow it manages to collect into copper mines, etc. If that's the fact, we'd need the same thing to occur with hydrogen for it to be a good idea to burn it. Otherwise hydrogen fuel is a stupid idea.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
- Arthur C. Clarke

sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Sep 15 2020 7:15pm

Dauntless wrote:
Sep 15 2020 6:16pm

But does that mean ALL hydrogen we'll ever see was created then?
Yes. Elements are generally neither created nor destroyed on Earth barring natural radioactive decays or high tech human nuclear processes. Some Helium is slowly blown away by solar wind despite Earth's protective magnetic field.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by boars » Sep 16 2020 1:21am

Is this parody? It feels like parody, please tell me this is now parody.
Losing 90% of water in a process that creates water from Hydrogen? Sorry, what?

There's too many posts to read in this crazy thread, so I've lost track of who's tongue is in cheek and who's finger is up their nose.

:lol:

In all seriousness perovskite sounds kind of cool if it can deliver the goods in an affordable way that's easy to produce. Be nice if it could be recycled too :P

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Balmorhea » Sep 16 2020 2:56am

boars wrote:
Sep 16 2020 1:21am
Is this parody? It feels like parody, please tell me this is now parody.
Losing 90% of water in a process that creates water from Hydrogen? Sorry, what?
I'm guessing the discussion is about electrolysis of water to produce hydrogen? The objective there in producing hydrogen is to combine the hydrogen with something else (hydrogen lighter than air craft being out of fashion), after which the hydrogen is fixed and retained in the atmosphere or the ground. If the hydrogen is recombined with oxygen such as in a hydrogen combustion motor or a fuel cell, it turns right back into water. Energy applied, less energy extracted, original materials returned.

If there's a concern, it's that the fraction of hydrogen lost in processing and storage is likely to work its way into the upper atmosphere and escape. That's a problem in the long, long view, but not in the near term. Not like fossil fuels, anyway. And not like extracting all the cobalt we can find and then landfilling it after a couple of years.
___________
Finish Reconstruction.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Sep 16 2020 11:41pm

boars wrote:
Sep 16 2020 1:21am
There's too many posts to read in this crazy thread, so I've lost track of who's tongue is in cheek and who's finger is up their nose
:lol:

In all seriousness perovskite sounds kind of cool if it can deliver the goods in an affordable way that's easy to produce. Be nice if it could be recycled too :P
Perovskite for PV cells still have many issues.....
The main one is common to all PV, and fundamental to the core debate in this thread.
They all stop generating power when the sun sets ! :shock:
..which pretty much renders it not much more than a wildlife shelter, or an expensive but leaky roofing material, for 12 hours of the day .!
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Dauntless   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Sep 16 2020 11:54pm

boars wrote:
Sep 16 2020 1:21am
Is this parody? It feels like parody, please tell me this is now parody.
Parody of what? Are your responses supposed to fit in the 'MAD Magazine' send up of 'MIT Technology Review?' I realize I could get a more serious answer from them, but my Dad doesn't teach there anymore and I doubt any of his old coworkers are around, I don't think they'd talk to me about it.
Balmorhea wrote:
Sep 16 2020 2:56am
If the hydrogen is recombined with oxygen such as in a hydrogen combustion motor or a fuel cell, it turns right back into water. Energy applied, less energy extracted, original materials returned.
But hold on. Why aren't there any laws of thermodynamics enforced here? No hydrogen burned, none lost? For every gallon of water lost to extracting hydrogen one gallon is produced and we even get all this overunity electricity?

If the U.S. uses 322 billion gallons of water a day and has trouble providing enough in places such as Southern California, (Which surrounds me with desert) where will we get the additional up to 195 billion gallons a day? Such is the upper range of projection for a hydrogen economy. I try to figure it out literally, but while they tell me 2.2 pounds of hydrogen will equal 6 pounds (A gallon) of gasoline, I don't find how much water will produce that volume of hydrogen. Just how much are you compressing it to get a weight rather than having it lift the container off the scale?

What will be the change in the average daily humidity in the hydrogen economy? 195 billion gallons of water released as vapor into the air every day. This is going to mean we get a lot more rain, right? Maybe Los Angeles will be as foggy as London was before it got too foggy for the Cockney to see anything anymore. (I'd say no spot here except o'course no bloke spots anyfink 'round 'ere anymore. Yer can't 'ave a knees-up wivout a joanna. But I'll not 'ave some amera septic tank speakin' that way about the bloomin' bow bells part of tahn. Roight. ) NO, it does NOT feel like a parody, it feels like you don't want to admit I'm asking questions you've never considered and don't want to admit this is whole hydrogen fantasy is probably something far different than you've been telling yourself.
Hillhater wrote:
Sep 16 2020 11:41pm
fundamental to the core debate in this thread.
They all stop generating power when the sun sets ! :shock:
..which pretty much renders it not much more than a wildlife shelter, or an expensive but leaky roofing material, for 12 hours of the day .!
Well hey, we could use some of that clear eyed logic on the hydrogen issue.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
- Arthur C. Clarke

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Dauntless   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Sep 18 2020 12:23am

We won't have water for hydrogen if we go along with this one. One BILLION people.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
- Arthur C. Clarke

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Sep 18 2020 5:31am

"Just do the math. As a minimum, every additional person needs a certain quantity of food to eat and clean water to drink. Extra people could, in theory, live without roofs over their heads, but no one wishes for a world with more homeless people. Beyond basic needs for food, water, and shelter, more people need more energy—to light their homes and cook their food, and when that is achieved—to power their refrigerators and washing machines. At higher levels of economic development, people desire cell phones, big screen televisions, and automobiles. At the highest levels, they want second homes and vacations in far-away destinations, reached by flying on gas-guzzling airplanes. "
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https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... YpplC_15G8
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sendler2112   100 kW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by sendler2112 » Sep 18 2020 12:02pm

Global Green House Gas emissions by sector.
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https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector
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Image
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Ianhill » Sep 18 2020 2:00pm

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/amp/flig ... index.html

So I'm supposed to cut back on fuel usage global warming yet the well off go sight seeing on a jumbo for the hell of it land where you took off, Wtf ?
The airlines thirst for cash has made a pandemic worse, and what do I see on tv ? The news telling me there's local lockdowns taking place yet the advert inbetween is a travel company saying there's covid cover and there's alot of people that still had a 2020 holiday it's just stupid I've never heard such bollocks.

I smell cival unrest coming those in charge are nothing more than dictating scum that do as they like.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by LeftieBiker » Sep 18 2020 2:07pm

Ianhill wrote:
Sep 18 2020 2:00pm
https://edition.cnn.com/travel/amp/flig ... index.html

So I'm supposed to cut back on fuel usage global warming yet the well off go sight seeing on a jumbo for the hell of it land where you took off, Wtf ?
The airlines thirst for cash has made a pandemic worse, and what do I see on tv ? The news telling me there's local lockdowns taking place yet the advert inbetween is a travel company saying there's covid cover and there's alot of people that still had a 2020 holiday it's just stupid I've never heard such bollocks.

I smell cival unrest coming those in charge are nothing more than dictating scum that do as they like.

If you base your behavior on what the worst people are doing, then we are all screwed. Try looking at what the best are doing.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Ianhill » Sep 18 2020 3:13pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Sep 18 2020 2:07pm
Ianhill wrote:
Sep 18 2020 2:00pm
https://edition.cnn.com/travel/amp/flig ... index.html

So I'm supposed to cut back on fuel usage global warming yet the well off go sight seeing on a jumbo for the hell of it land where you took off, Wtf ?
The airlines thirst for cash has made a pandemic worse, and what do I see on tv ? The news telling me there's local lockdowns taking place yet the advert inbetween is a travel company saying there's covid cover and there's alot of people that still had a 2020 holiday it's just stupid I've never heard such bollocks.

I smell cival unrest coming those in charge are nothing more than dictating scum that do as they like.

If you base your behavior on what the worst people are doing, then we are all screwed. Try looking at what the best are doing.
I use my moral compass like most as u point out good happens but there is a common trend the agenda is pushing and that's make everything crazy that way our shitty ways don't get highlighted and everyone keeps saying black lives matter when in the eyes of most as you point out they always have, we are dividing rapidly that is a catalyst for cival unrest.

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