New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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charakaSamawry   100 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by charakaSamawry » Oct 11 2020 5:20pm

famichiki wrote:
Sep 01 2020 9:42pm
famichiki wrote:
Sep 01 2020 6:20pm
Are there solder pads under the rubber here? How are the red and black wires connected to the coil?
I want to disconnect them without cutting the wires if possible.
So I took a chance and removed the silicone rubber. Yes there are solder pads for the torque sensor coil under there and it looks like the best place for disconnecting the wires if you want to replace the roller bearing.
How’d changing the 2214 roller bearing go? Was it easy enough to desolder? And afterward you just had a to recalibrate the torque sensor?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Oct 11 2020 5:40pm

charakaSamawry wrote:
Oct 11 2020 5:20pm
How’d changing the 2214 roller bearing go? Was it easy enough to desolder? And afterward you just had a to recalibrate the torque sensor?
It was pretty easy to pick off the potting and desolder. I then cleaned up the pads with some braid and isopropyl alcohol.

Then unscrew the sensor plate and pull the whole plate out with the wires. The hardest part is getting that retaining clip off and back on again.

Some flux when reattaching the wires is helpful and I re-potted with liquid electrical tape so I can easily remove again in the future if need be. Otherwise epoxy is probably best as some silicones will cause corrosion. Make sure to keep the wires, solder and any potting compound level to or lower than the surface of the disc otherwise it may rub on the big gear.

I put threadlock on the sensor plate screws. Also a drop of bearing retainer behind that plate but you could use epoxy, use the 24 hour stuff rather than quick cure to give you time to calibrate the sensor. There was some kind of glue on mine from the factory.

I set the torque sensor reading in the VLCD5 hidden service menu to around 75 - 80 by moving the plate with a small screwdriver. Recommended is between 50 and 105.

After that's set then tighten up the screws and you should be all good.

Note that due to poor tolerances any new bearing will still be a bit loose on the torque sensor shaft.

Also, the new INA HK2214-RS-L271 bearings I used have an oil seal on one side. The lip would catch on the retaining ring groove and wouldn't slide over. I wrapped the groove in dental floss to build it up and then it slid over easily. I fitted both bearings with the seals facing towards the drive side - the outer bearing so it wouldn't throw grease onto the discs, the inner bearing because the torque sensor shaft doesn't extend enough to sit in the seal otherwise.
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LeftCoastNurd   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by LeftCoastNurd » Oct 11 2020 11:17pm

huh, reading the procedure on calibrating the torque sensors... ok, I'm 220 lbs, I can stand on the pedal. I have no idea how to put, say, 100 lbs on the pedal... a 5 gallon bucket of water is only 40 lbs. plus I'm pretty sure my work stand will get very cranky (pun intended) if I add 100 lbs to the 45 lb bike. the only other person here is heavier than I and has bad knees and is rather short, so she won't be able to balance on one foot with her weight on the pedal, and she's too heavy anyways.

charakaSamawry   100 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by charakaSamawry » Oct 12 2020 6:03am

famichiki wrote:
Oct 11 2020 5:40pm
charakaSamawry wrote:
Oct 11 2020 5:20pm
How’d changing the 2214 roller bearing go?
It was pretty easy-
<photos + instructions>
Stellar! Another page for the wiki methinks.

Image
Cheers :bigthumb:

Adarsh881   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Adarsh881 » Oct 12 2020 4:38pm

bergerandfries wrote:
Oct 05 2020 8:24pm
I have this problem too, which is posted unanswered in the "E-Bike Technical" section. Anyone have any ideas?
by cellmate » Jul 13 2020 3:16pm

Hi there,

I just got a brand new TSDZ2 from eco-cycles. It is working, but have noticed that the resistance when turning the cranks is not continuous all the way around. It is smooth all the way except one spot, where it has a bit more friction. It's not a huge amount, but you can feel it when pedaling. There is also a subtle/quiet grinding sound at that point. It's very quiet (nothing like some of the things I've found when googling this), but it is definitely there once you notice it.

I noticed that if I put the bike on the repair stand and use the throttle to turn the chainring, there is a tiny wobble to it, right at the point where it makes the sound.

I removed the drive-side crank, chainring, and spider, and ran it again. Now the motor is smooth and silent. If I put the spider back on again but don't tighten the 5 retaining bolts fully, it is also smooth. As soon as I tighten them even the tiniest bit (< 1nm) the wobble and grind comes back.

The motor works, but I feel like something isn't right, and I suspect it will get worse if I don't deal with it sooner rather than later.

Has anyone had this before?
Yes I have the exact same thing... Didn't find what it is though....did you get any wiser?

Antenor   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Antenor » Oct 12 2020 6:18pm

Hi.
This has probably been discussed before, but as I haven't found it.
If I connect a 48v motor with a 36v battery (I think only with open source software), the cadence will be lower, right? Or are the 36v and 48v motors exactly the same with only one controller programmed differently?
The only way to increase the cadence of a 48v motor is through the opensource firmware?
Thanks in advance for the attention you can give

LeftCoastNurd   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by LeftCoastNurd » Oct 12 2020 7:21pm

i've installed one 48V TSDZ2 with stock firmware, and indeed, it peters out above about 70 cadence, and completely drops all boost at 90.

I've installed a second 48V (running with a 52V battery) with the open source firmware, and I can pedal 100-120 cadence and still have boost. thats about as fast as this fat old guy can pedal, so I dunno how much faster it will go. 90 is kind of my happy place, or 75 if I'm kicking back and cruising, so I'm way happier with the FOSS than with the stock stuff.

also the acceleration is smoother, and the 860C display rocks, being able to see human vs motor power in real time, watching the motor temperature, having the temp sensor tied into a power safety to prevent overheating (about 170F it starts to cut back on power, and at 185F it cuts out completely... those are all tunable, I left at defaults... by seeing the temperature I can be sure I give the motor a chance to cool before a long steep grade, and I can regulate the power assist level and gearing to ensure the heat stays managable, without it, its way too easy to crank away at 700 watts output in a talllll gear and go zoom zoom followed by demagnetizing the motor when it overheats.

Balmorhea   100 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Balmorhea » Oct 12 2020 7:25pm

LeftCoastNurd wrote:
Oct 12 2020 7:21pm
i've installed one 48V TSDZ2 with stock firmware, and indeed, it peters out above about 70 cadence, and completely drops all boost at 90.
So... not for cyclists, I guess. That's not surprising for an outfit that would go into production with a fatally flawed mechanical design that looks like a quiz question from first semester mechanical engineering.
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bergerandfries   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by bergerandfries » Oct 12 2020 10:41pm

Adarsh881 wrote:
Oct 12 2020 4:38pm
bergerandfries wrote:
Oct 05 2020 8:24pm
I have this problem too, which is posted unanswered in the "E-Bike Technical" section. Anyone have any ideas?
by cellmate » Jul 13 2020 3:16pm

Hi there,

I just got a brand new TSDZ2 from eco-cycles. It is working, but have noticed that the resistance when turning the cranks is not continuous all the way around. It is smooth all the way except one spot, where it has a bit more friction. It's not a huge amount, but you can feel it when pedaling. There is also a subtle/quiet grinding sound at that point. It's very quiet (nothing like some of the things I've found when googling this), but it is definitely there once you notice it.

I noticed that if I put the bike on the repair stand and use the throttle to turn the chainring, there is a tiny wobble to it, right at the point where it makes the sound.

I removed the drive-side crank, chainring, and spider, and ran it again. Now the motor is smooth and silent. If I put the spider back on again but don't tighten the 5 retaining bolts fully, it is also smooth. As soon as I tighten them even the tiniest bit (< 1nm) the wobble and grind comes back.

The motor works, but I feel like something isn't right, and I suspect it will get worse if I don't deal with it sooner rather than later.

Has anyone had this before?
Yes I have the exact same thing... Didn't find what it is though....did you get any wiser?
Nope. I suspect something is rubbing where I can't see it. Haven't found it yet

LeftCoastNurd   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by LeftCoastNurd » Oct 12 2020 11:36pm

Balmorhea wrote:
Oct 12 2020 7:25pm
LeftCoastNurd wrote:
Oct 12 2020 7:21pm
i've installed one 48V TSDZ2 with stock firmware, and indeed, it peters out above about 70 cadence, and completely drops all boost at 90.
So... not for cyclists, I guess. That's not surprising for an outfit that would go into production with a fatally flawed mechanical design that looks like a quiz question from first semester mechanical engineering.
I don't have any experience riding with the commercial middrives, such as the Bosch, Yamaha, etc systems as used by the big bike maker's like Specialized, Giant, Trek... how do these behave at higher cadences ?

(I actually am thinking of dropping by the local Specialized stealer, and giving their Vado SL 5.0 test mule a spin....)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Balmorhea » Oct 13 2020 12:51am

LeftCoastNurd wrote:
Oct 12 2020 11:36pm
I don't have any experience riding with the commercial middrives, such as the Bosch, Yamaha, etc systems as used by the big bike maker's like Specialized, Giant, Trek... how do these behave at higher cadences ?
I haven't a clue. But I never spun off the top of my BBS02 when I had it. I reckon a torque based system should keep pushing as long as the rider keeps providing torque. I mean, that's sort of the point.
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LeftCoastNurd   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by LeftCoastNurd » Oct 13 2020 12:55am

Balmorhea wrote:
Oct 13 2020 12:51am
LeftCoastNurd wrote:
Oct 12 2020 11:36pm
I don't have any experience riding with the commercial middrives, such as the Bosch, Yamaha, etc systems as used by the big bike maker's like Specialized, Giant, Trek... how do these behave at higher cadences ?
I haven't a clue. But I never spun off the top of my BBS02 when I had it. I reckon a torque based system should keep pushing as long as the rider keeps providing torque. I mean, that's sort of the point.
the BBS02 isn't torque sensing, is it?

knutselmaaster   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Oct 13 2020 12:59am

This chart comes from the Bosch training. It is Bosch that made it and their training is quite full of marketing bullshit so I cannot guarantee that it is accurate.
It is a few years old so might have changed since.
POWERS.jpg
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Balmorhea   100 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Balmorhea » Oct 13 2020 1:08am

LeftCoastNurd wrote:
Oct 13 2020 12:55am
Balmorhea wrote:
Oct 13 2020 12:51am
I haven't a clue. But I never spun off the top of my BBS02 when I had it. I reckon a torque based system should keep pushing as long as the rider keeps providing torque. I mean, that's sort of the point.
the BBS02 isn't torque sensing, is it?
It is not. It isn't even cadence sensing as far as I could tell; it was signs-of-life sensing. Turn pedals, it gave as much power as you requested.

My point is that pedal torque naturally falls away as RPMs increase. There's no reason to shut down assist at any RPM, unless the problem is that the motor will only drive the pedals up to a maximum speed of 90 RPM. If that's the issue, well... I guess they understand how most e-bikers ride? But not real cyclists.
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LeftCoastNurd   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by LeftCoastNurd » Oct 13 2020 1:15am

many bicycle riders never exceed a cadence of 60 rpm... does that mean they are not 'cyclists' ? we're not all Lance Armstrong (but my TSDZ2 sure makes me feel like I have Lance helping when climbing an 8% grade in medium gear!!)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Oct 13 2020 1:00pm

Where’s the market where you are going to sell max number of motor conversions, the Asian commuter where a cadence of 60 is high, so do you then concentrate your design on full on cyclists who have a cadence of 100 and number just a few thousand, nope you hit the market where you can sell a few million of units that work around 60 - 80.

As to the Brose and Bosch type, all the early engines petered out in the 90 rpms with the Yamaha in the 80’s, most now seem to pull into the 100’s with their versions of EMTB and are much better designed for the true cyclists.

Simply moving to higher voltage such as 48 volts on the 36 volt motor will pull the cadence well into the 100’s on the standard firmware, 52 volts on the 48 volt motor again livens it up nicely. If you go across to the Freeware then you can pull well into the 110’s and beyond with the later versions.

LeftCoastNurd   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by LeftCoastNurd » Oct 13 2020 5:28pm

How was the max temp of 85C/185F determined? my motor reaches that rather quickly on a 27C/80F ambient kind of day like today wehn I'm climbing hills and such. I did some poking around, and it seems like a lot of DC perm magnet motors are rated to operate at temps nearly twice that hot, like 150C

bergerandfries   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by bergerandfries » Oct 13 2020 10:05pm

LeftCoastNurd wrote:
Oct 13 2020 5:28pm
How was the max temp of 85C/185F determined? my motor reaches that rather quickly on a 27C/80F ambient kind of day like today wehn I'm climbing hills and such. I did some poking around, and it seems like a lot of DC perm magnet motors are rated to operate at temps nearly twice that hot, like 150C
cashino discovered it by personal experience. He has pictures of the fried motor in the wiki. 85C might be conservative, but I bet it would cook off at 95C, so not SUPER conservative. True that high quality motors might tolerate high temps, but the consumer grade motor in the TSDZ2 has proven that it will not tolerate 150C. Somewhere someone posted that the lower grade magnets are the issue...

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by LeftCoastNurd » Oct 13 2020 10:22pm

sigh, thats really weak spot of this system.

its HUGE fun to ride until it gets too hot. I've gone like 15 miles now on short test rides including a fair number of hills, and my battery is still at like 86% I want to run it down to like 50%, then plug its charger into a smart socket, and measure how much power it uses to recharge the battery. my 11-28 rear with 700x40 tires seems well matched to the 42T stock chainring.

Balmorhea   100 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Balmorhea » Oct 14 2020 3:01am

LeftCoastNurd wrote:
Oct 13 2020 1:15am
many bicycle riders never exceed a cadence of 60 rpm... does that mean they are not 'cyclists' ?
Yes. Mainly it means they're not even trying.

I ran on the Circuit Of The Americas track tonight during Bike Night. I pedaled up to about 39 mph with a 52/13 top gear. If an old fat guy can put in about 120 rpm, anybody can do 90, which is considered the starting point for performance cycling. Since we have help, we should be able to spin faster than that.

Any pedal assist system that stops just as a real cyclist is getting going should be rejected out of hand. There are other reasons TSDZ2 should be rejected out of hand, though.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ilu » Oct 14 2020 6:08am

Balmorhea wrote:
Oct 14 2020 3:01am
LeftCoastNurd wrote:
Oct 13 2020 1:15am
many bicycle riders never exceed a cadence of 60 rpm... does that mean they are not 'cyclists' ?
Yes. Mainly it means they're not even trying.

I ran on the Circuit Of The Americas track tonight during Bike Night. I pedaled up to about 39 mph with a 52/13 top gear. If an old fat guy can put in about 120 rpm, anybody can do 90, which is considered the starting point for performance cycling. Since we have help, we should be able to spin faster than that.

Any pedal assist system that stops just as a real cyclist is getting going should be rejected out of hand. There are other reasons TSDZ2 should be rejected out of hand, though.
Well, there are a lot of people who'd say that no real cyclist would ever use a motor...

If my bike was configured to my country's legal requirements ie. 25 km/h speed limit and I was driving only on roads, the cadence limitation in the stock firmware would be no problem as the speed limit would usually kick in sooner.

Though I agree that because of the poor mechanical construction I cannot really recommend TSDZ2 to anyone who is not willing to put a lot of effort and time to maintaining the motor. And due to constant problems with my two motors, I'm gonna change to another type of system at some point. Of course there aren't many simple torque-sensing mid-motors available for DIY.

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jbalat   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Oct 14 2020 6:48am

If you run your motor at a higher voltage the it will run up to 120rpm. I have done a video on this. With Casainhos latest firmware the motor will continue to increase power at higher cadence. Agree that the stock firmware is only meant for commuting and not for off-road or racing but that suits most people...not me.
If you don’t like the quality of the tsdz2 but enjoy the torque sensing then I urge you to try out a Powerfly with the Bosch motor, it easily revs out to 120rpm and is a much better quality motor. They are expensive but if you look around you should be able to get a 2018 or 2019 model for around 3.5k which is a really good buy. I use my Powerfly primarily for off-road and use my tsdz2 as a commuter with light off-road.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Antenor » Oct 14 2020 10:41am

Waynemarlow wrote:
Oct 13 2020 1:00pm
Where’s the market where you are going to sell max number of motor conversions, the Asian commuter where a cadence of 60 is high, so do you then concentrate your design on full on cyclists who have a cadence of 100 and number just a few thousand, nope you hit the market where you can sell a few million of units that work around 60 - 80.

As to the Brose and Bosch type, all the early engines petered out in the 90 rpms with the Yamaha in the 80’s, most now seem to pull into the 100’s with their versions of EMTB and are much better designed for the true cyclists.

Simply moving to higher voltage such as 48 volts on the 36 volt motor will pull the cadence well into the 100’s on the standard firmware, 52 volts on the 48 volt motor again livens it up nicely. If you go across to the Freeware then you can pull well into the 110’s and beyond with the later versions.
For moving to higher voltage i need to put a new firmware or a 36v motor will work with 48v without any alteration?
90 rpm is to slow for me...i have a merida e one sixty with a shimano motor and i spin above that most of the time (off road use)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ilu » Oct 14 2020 11:13am

Antenor wrote:
Oct 14 2020 10:41am
For moving to higher voltage i need to put a new firmware or a 36v motor will work with 48v without any alteration?
90 rpm is to slow for me...i have a merida e one sixty with a shimano motor and i spin above that most of the time (off road use)
You need to update the firmware. I think it is possible to use the stock 48V firmware, but much better option is to use the OSF so you can configure it specifically for 36V motor and 48V battery. This can be done with the marcoq/mrbusa's firmware for the stock displays if you don't want to buy a new display. That version also has an experimental high cadence mode for the 36V motor to increase the working cadence even higher. But casainho's FW for 850C/860C/SW102 displays has the most sophisticated and efficient field weakening feature.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Wapous » Oct 14 2020 3:49pm

jbalat wrote:
Oct 14 2020 6:48am
If you run your motor at a higher voltage the it will run up to 120rpm. I have done a video on this. With Casainhos latest firmware the motor will continue to increase power at higher cadence. Agree that the stock firmware is only meant for commuting and not for off-road or racing but that suits most people...not me.
If you don’t like the quality of the tsdz2 but enjoy the torque sensing then I urge you to try out a Powerfly with the Bosch motor, it easily revs out to 120rpm and is a much better quality motor. They are expensive but if you look around you should be able to get a 2018 or 2019 model for around 3.5k which is a really good buy. I use my Powerfly primarily for off-road and use my tsdz2 as a commuter with light off-road.
Hello,
I agree with you all along.
But I would like to know if you had to repair your Bosch motor?
Do you have access to service books and parts?

It may sound like a masochist to you, but I like having to maintain my TSDZ2 engine. It's simple (thanks to this forum) and as I am retired it keeps me busy and spare parts are relatively inexpensive.
The only thing I dread is breaking down far from home. But this can happen with any mechanic.

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