New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

LeftCoastNurd said:
I don't have any experience riding with the commercial middrives, such as the Bosch, Yamaha, etc systems as used by the big bike maker's like Specialized, Giant, Trek... how do these behave at higher cadences ?

I haven't a clue. But I never spun off the top of my BBS02 when I had it. I reckon a torque based system should keep pushing as long as the rider keeps providing torque. I mean, that's sort of the point.
 
Balmorhea said:
LeftCoastNurd said:
I don't have any experience riding with the commercial middrives, such as the Bosch, Yamaha, etc systems as used by the big bike maker's like Specialized, Giant, Trek... how do these behave at higher cadences ?

I haven't a clue. But I never spun off the top of my BBS02 when I had it. I reckon a torque based system should keep pushing as long as the rider keeps providing torque. I mean, that's sort of the point.

the BBS02 isn't torque sensing, is it?
 
This chart comes from the Bosch training. It is Bosch that made it and their training is quite full of marketing bullshit so I cannot guarantee that it is accurate.
It is a few years old so might have changed since.POWERS.jpg
 
LeftCoastNurd said:
Balmorhea said:
I haven't a clue. But I never spun off the top of my BBS02 when I had it. I reckon a torque based system should keep pushing as long as the rider keeps providing torque. I mean, that's sort of the point.

the BBS02 isn't torque sensing, is it?

It is not. It isn't even cadence sensing as far as I could tell; it was signs-of-life sensing. Turn pedals, it gave as much power as you requested.

My point is that pedal torque naturally falls away as RPMs increase. There's no reason to shut down assist at any RPM, unless the problem is that the motor will only drive the pedals up to a maximum speed of 90 RPM. If that's the issue, well... I guess they understand how most e-bikers ride? But not real cyclists.
 
many bicycle riders never exceed a cadence of 60 rpm... does that mean they are not 'cyclists' ? we're not all Lance Armstrong (but my TSDZ2 sure makes me feel like I have Lance helping when climbing an 8% grade in medium gear!!)
 
Where’s the market where you are going to sell max number of motor conversions, the Asian commuter where a cadence of 60 is high, so do you then concentrate your design on full on cyclists who have a cadence of 100 and number just a few thousand, nope you hit the market where you can sell a few million of units that work around 60 - 80.

As to the Brose and Bosch type, all the early engines petered out in the 90 rpms with the Yamaha in the 80’s, most now seem to pull into the 100’s with their versions of EMTB and are much better designed for the true cyclists.

Simply moving to higher voltage such as 48 volts on the 36 volt motor will pull the cadence well into the 100’s on the standard firmware, 52 volts on the 48 volt motor again livens it up nicely. If you go across to the Freeware then you can pull well into the 110’s and beyond with the later versions.
 
How was the max temp of 85C/185F determined? my motor reaches that rather quickly on a 27C/80F ambient kind of day like today wehn I'm climbing hills and such. I did some poking around, and it seems like a lot of DC perm magnet motors are rated to operate at temps nearly twice that hot, like 150C
 
LeftCoastNurd said:
How was the max temp of 85C/185F determined? my motor reaches that rather quickly on a 27C/80F ambient kind of day like today wehn I'm climbing hills and such. I did some poking around, and it seems like a lot of DC perm magnet motors are rated to operate at temps nearly twice that hot, like 150C
cashino discovered it by personal experience. He has pictures of the fried motor in the wiki. 85C might be conservative, but I bet it would cook off at 95C, so not SUPER conservative. True that high quality motors might tolerate high temps, but the consumer grade motor in the TSDZ2 has proven that it will not tolerate 150C. Somewhere someone posted that the lower grade magnets are the issue...
 
sigh, thats really weak spot of this system.

its HUGE fun to ride until it gets too hot. I've gone like 15 miles now on short test rides including a fair number of hills, and my battery is still at like 86% I want to run it down to like 50%, then plug its charger into a smart socket, and measure how much power it uses to recharge the battery. my 11-28 rear with 700x40 tires seems well matched to the 42T stock chainring.
 
LeftCoastNurd said:
many bicycle riders never exceed a cadence of 60 rpm... does that mean they are not 'cyclists' ?

Yes. Mainly it means they're not even trying.

I ran on the Circuit Of The Americas track tonight during Bike Night. I pedaled up to about 39 mph with a 52/13 top gear. If an old fat guy can put in about 120 rpm, anybody can do 90, which is considered the starting point for performance cycling. Since we have help, we should be able to spin faster than that.

Any pedal assist system that stops just as a real cyclist is getting going should be rejected out of hand. There are other reasons TSDZ2 should be rejected out of hand, though.
 
Balmorhea said:
LeftCoastNurd said:
many bicycle riders never exceed a cadence of 60 rpm... does that mean they are not 'cyclists' ?

Yes. Mainly it means they're not even trying.

I ran on the Circuit Of The Americas track tonight during Bike Night. I pedaled up to about 39 mph with a 52/13 top gear. If an old fat guy can put in about 120 rpm, anybody can do 90, which is considered the starting point for performance cycling. Since we have help, we should be able to spin faster than that.

Any pedal assist system that stops just as a real cyclist is getting going should be rejected out of hand. There are other reasons TSDZ2 should be rejected out of hand, though.

Well, there are a lot of people who'd say that no real cyclist would ever use a motor...

If my bike was configured to my country's legal requirements ie. 25 km/h speed limit and I was driving only on roads, the cadence limitation in the stock firmware would be no problem as the speed limit would usually kick in sooner.

Though I agree that because of the poor mechanical construction I cannot really recommend TSDZ2 to anyone who is not willing to put a lot of effort and time to maintaining the motor. And due to constant problems with my two motors, I'm gonna change to another type of system at some point. Of course there aren't many simple torque-sensing mid-motors available for DIY.
 
If you run your motor at a higher voltage the it will run up to 120rpm. I have done a video on this. With Casainhos latest firmware the motor will continue to increase power at higher cadence. Agree that the stock firmware is only meant for commuting and not for off-road or racing but that suits most people...not me.
If you don’t like the quality of the tsdz2 but enjoy the torque sensing then I urge you to try out a Powerfly with the Bosch motor, it easily revs out to 120rpm and is a much better quality motor. They are expensive but if you look around you should be able to get a 2018 or 2019 model for around 3.5k which is a really good buy. I use my Powerfly primarily for off-road and use my tsdz2 as a commuter with light off-road.
 
Waynemarlow said:
Where’s the market where you are going to sell max number of motor conversions, the Asian commuter where a cadence of 60 is high, so do you then concentrate your design on full on cyclists who have a cadence of 100 and number just a few thousand, nope you hit the market where you can sell a few million of units that work around 60 - 80.

As to the Brose and Bosch type, all the early engines petered out in the 90 rpms with the Yamaha in the 80’s, most now seem to pull into the 100’s with their versions of EMTB and are much better designed for the true cyclists.

Simply moving to higher voltage such as 48 volts on the 36 volt motor will pull the cadence well into the 100’s on the standard firmware, 52 volts on the 48 volt motor again livens it up nicely. If you go across to the Freeware then you can pull well into the 110’s and beyond with the later versions.

For moving to higher voltage i need to put a new firmware or a 36v motor will work with 48v without any alteration?
90 rpm is to slow for me...i have a merida e one sixty with a shimano motor and i spin above that most of the time (off road use)
 
Antenor said:
For moving to higher voltage i need to put a new firmware or a 36v motor will work with 48v without any alteration?
90 rpm is to slow for me...i have a merida e one sixty with a shimano motor and i spin above that most of the time (off road use)

You need to update the firmware. I think it is possible to use the stock 48V firmware, but much better option is to use the OSF so you can configure it specifically for 36V motor and 48V battery. This can be done with the marcoq/mrbusa's firmware for the stock displays if you don't want to buy a new display. That version also has an experimental high cadence mode for the 36V motor to increase the working cadence even higher. But casainho's FW for 850C/860C/SW102 displays has the most sophisticated and efficient field weakening feature.
 
Haven't had to repair the bosch motor yet knock.on wood and out of warranty but I know there is a bearing kit you can buy for it that I'm sure is way overpriced:) agree tsdz2 is easy to work on, I'm sure bosch will not be any different and there are videos out there to help if the need arises.
 
Bosch doesn't want you to repair the motor. They want you to replace it entirely so that they can have your money.
The only part they provide is 1 bearing, but only in the complete motor cover so that the replacement costs for the bearing are almost $300.
And don't even think that you can use old motors for spare parts, they only send a new motor once they have received the old one that needs to be sent back.
And I can know, I'm an official Bosch service center.
When I told them that their policy is rediculous, they told me I should be happy because it made me earn money...
 
casainho said:
AZUR said:
I would like to share with the Forum what I did on the TSDZ2 engine to improve heat dissipation.
Would be important if you could share also on the wiki, on the specific page for this topic. Maybe you could even create a new page with all this information, adding your name on the page and then link on the main page of this topic.

Hi Casainho

Ok, for sure, I will be very happy to contribute to the wiki.

Thanks
 
bergerandfries said:
LeftCoastNurd said:
How was the max temp of 85C/185F determined? my motor reaches that rather quickly on a 27C/80F ambient kind of day like today wehn I'm climbing hills and such. I did some poking around, and it seems like a lot of DC perm magnet motors are rated to operate at temps nearly twice that hot, like 150C
cashino discovered it by personal experience. He has pictures of the fried motor in the wiki. 85C might be conservative, but I bet it would cook off at 95C, so not SUPER conservative. True that high quality motors might tolerate high temps, but the consumer grade motor in the TSDZ2 has proven that it will not tolerate 150C. Somewhere someone posted that the lower grade magnets are the issue...

That might be the reason why it seems to be getting weaker and weaker despite Panasonic thermal modification. Not sure if low grade Chinese CYCBT battery is to blame (watt meter shows weaker and weaker performance after each monthly 40 mile excursion).
 
so we need to find a higher temp rated motor in the same form factor, eh? I gather these are three phase brushless motors, with some sort of 3 phase speed encoder (guessing based on the 3 power wires and 3 signal wires I see in the pictures)
 
I'm looking at the doc page on the Assist level table, and noting the default 20 assist levels went up to 1.50, which if I'm reading correctly, represents 1.50 * human_Watts == amps, 1.5 * 100 watts is 150 amps?!? while I haven't yet calibrated my torque, its telling me that if I'm outputting 100 watts pedaling at cadences around 75 with light pressure, and 125-150 watts if I'm pedaling a bit more vigorously, and that's *WAY* over the max 18 amps (which I have recently detuned to 12A in a attempt to get the heat under better control). in fact, anything much over 0.100 is too much (0.1 * 150 watts human == 15 amps)

using 10 steps, my current Assist level table looks like...

step setting
1 0.020
2 0.030
3 0.045
4 0.068
5 0.101
6 0.152
7 0.228
8 0.342
9 0.513
10 0.769

and even with those values, anything much past '5' is too much power per my calculations?

am I totally misunderstanding this? sadly, it was 98F here today, and I just wasn't in the mood for a ride since my rides have to end with a mile long 5-8% grade with no shade.
 
LeftCoastNurd said:
I'm looking at the doc page on the Assist level table, and noting the default 20 assist levels went up to 1.50, which if I'm reading correctly, represents 1.50 * human_Watts == amps, 1.5 * 100 watts is 150 amps?!? ... Snip

am I totally misunderstanding this? sadly, it was 98F here today, and I just wasn't in the mood for a ride since my rides have to end with a mile long 5-8% grade with no shade.
I have a question re this. I'm not really sure why the assist calculations became so complicated to the end user. Earlier versions of the firmware simply multiplied the users power or torque output. Very similar to other mid drive systems like Bosch and Brose.

Why was the change made to something that is not intuitive?
 
gain /should/ be on some sort of logarithmic scale, as you want small steps at the low end and bigger steps at the high end. too many naïve programmers implement linear gain steps (for instance 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%, 90%, 100%), if you do this with volume, brightness, or most any other power unit, you find the lower steps are too big, and the upper steps are too small.
 
Swannking said:
Retro-fitting any 3rd party motor is going to require some serious skills and imagination.

I'd imagine you could scavenge the end plate off your baked TSDZ motor, and mount the replacement motor on the same plate... of course you'd need a compatible pinion gear and shaft fit onto the replacement motor... and possibly reprogram the firmware to understand any specific differences in the new motor (phase/windings count, hall sensor configuration, etc).

you'd want to replace all the lubricants in the TSDZ2 with ones better suited to higher temperatures,


Meanwhile I need to start testing mine at lower power limits to see where I can operate it without it overheating when I'm right in the middle of too much fun :D
 
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