new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Those tooth counts are only valid if you are using bicycle chain. 25H or (overkill) 219 on the primary allows large reductions without going huge on the chainring.
Big rear sprockets aren't having issues with the emoto guys so far.

It's less about the inefficiency of the gearbox and more about being easier on chains plus narrower.

Grantmac,

Correct. A smaller chain pitch like #25 can make for bigger reduction using less max ring radius.

You say, "It's less about the inefficiency of the gearbox and more about being easier on chains plus narrower."

Narrower bike chains came about to get more cogs on the freehub and within the axle width-- 10s, 11s & 12 speed. These flimsy expensive chains don't hold up as good the 9 speed chain to dirt, twisting and removing them when they get caught between 2 chainrings.

A bigger chain say #415 on the rear will thoroughly outperform a #25 chain, a 219 chain or a 12 speed chain when it comes to use as the rear chain on an edirtbike. Also narrow is less stable.

Speaking of lateral stability, the #25 chain cannot hold a candle to the #415 chain's tenacity. A flying twig can derail a #25 chain. Maybe for a somewhat enclosed chainguard like LR incorporates on his nominal 10k motor kit the drive will be shielded enough for full time street use? I still have #25 rings etc around from some experiments back in the day. The #25 chain is well suited for clean, little wear, snug fit indoor power transfer. LR could use this as his slogan: "We have throughly bench tested the #25 chain and you upon buying our product get to do the field testing."



Going bigger on the rear wheel comes in at about $1.00 per tooth. I have an unmouned 70 tooth made for a rear wheel set up. I think that once rear chain rings get more diameter than the crank arm diameter say 90 T, you are setting up for some bent rings when offtrailing with an edirtbike.



A comparative idea for weight trade offs on edirtbike. The weight saved by going light and weak vs. heavy and strong on gears and chains is far less than a standard deviation of the group of rider+ bike weight for these edirtbikes we build.

LR doesn't use 25H in any of their builds so I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make. I also wouldn't use it for a secondary reduction.

All I'm saying is if you are going to use such a big motor that having 3 stages of reduction with a relatively low effective ratio is a poor design.

is there any place in europe which can sell me tapered square bottom bracket (68-83mm) for 3000w cyclone?

Grantmac,

You say a relatively low effective ratio? My ratio is 6 (planetary) x (M)44/22 x (R)44/36 = 14.677. Is this low? The ratio 14.67 is quite quite suited at 6K for my single speed edirtbikes and where I ride them. Maybe top speed 35 mph with the 6 K.

Using the Cyclone planetary reduction I am able to avoid small cogs that do wear out very quickly. Let's say cogs less than 16T have a short life. LR used to sell 9T and they had a brief life. It would likely happen that if I used all chains & rings to get the 14.67 ratio my two chain reductions would wear out somewhat quicker than they do with part of the reduction being the 6:1 gearbox.

The (LR?)idea that the ratio of 8:1 is ideal for a 6K edirtbike is simply off the mark. The 8:1 ratio may work fine for his single speed 6K Quiltbox on groomed uphill steep? bike trails and yet give some speed for the highway? Fine. I do not do highway with these edirtbikes.

Let's call an ace an ace? The real problem with a big motor and the planetary gearbox was it's width in relation to BB adaptions. It is somewhat solved with the Cyclone BB Extension. The left side is wider and I have to compensate from my old space allocations.

I may switch the motor pulley from a 22T to a 24T making the ratio 14.67 x 22/24 = 13.44. A ratio of 8 is not on the horizon nor is eliminating the gearbox even though I have the hardware present to make such a conversion . Note Big rings last longer.

This evening I converted the 6k motor overall ratio to 8:1, which is the ratio LR is using with with his touted 6k motor kit & mounting. The ratio change from 14.77 was done on a new crank arm, freewheel adapter, chainrings and chain so to Not have to make up new chain lengths for each ratio test.

The set up of rings & planetary were configured as 6 planetary x 24/22 motor x 44/36 rear = 8.0 :1.



When I finished this set up it was dark and cold but I did a brief run on pavement. This 6K setup with the 8:1 gearing does outperform (feeling wise) my 4K cyclone coaxial bike on 114v and 60 amps = 6840 watts. Both setups have adequate batteries -- 3 or 4 Turnigy 20 aH 6s batts with a12C max discharge.

I have not tested the setup on the sidehill edirtbike challenges. Likely the motor will heat more than with the 14.77 ratio. I have a thermistor hooked up for automatic shut down when reaching 80C on outside of motor shell.

DingusMcGee said:

This evening I converted the 6k motor overall ratio to 8:1, which is the ratio LR is using with with his touted 6k motor kit & mounting. The ratio change from 14.77 was done on a new crank arm, freewheel adapter, chainrings and chain so to Not have to make up new chain lengths for each ratio test.

The set up of rings & planetary were configured as 6 planetary x 24/22 motor x 44/36 rear = 8.0 :1.
IMG_0471.jpg
IMG_0470.jpg

When I finished this set up it was dark and cold but I did a brief run on pavement. This 6K setup with the 8:1 gearing does outperform (feeling wise) my 4K cyclone coaxial bike on 114v and 60 amps = 6840 watts. Both setups have adequate batteries -- 3 or 4 Turnigy 20 aH 6s batts with a12C max discharge.

I have not tested the setup on the sidehill edirtbike challenges. Likely the motor will heat more than with the 14.77 ratio. I have a thermistor hooked up for automatic shut down when reaching 80C on outside of motor shell.

Click to expand...

What do you think of the single chain idea cyclone just uploaded?
[youtube]sBdIjkWAJx4[/youtube]

DingusMcGee said:

The old Shimano Deore XT freehub failed after some 20 fast starts. I switched to my wheel with DT Swiss 350 hub. Is the DT Swiss freehub still reputed to be the strongest?

Click to expand...

Hello. I am making rear hub with Halo Fix-G track hub (sturdy easy to replace bearings) with adjustable chainline. CrMo 1/8" fatfoot sprocket. Should be strong unit. Can be used with freewheel or without. So im going without as it allows regen and braking. But adjustable chainline is nice..

Tommm,

What do you think of the single chain idea cyclone just uploaded?

Click to expand...

For the rocky trails that I ride the motor would get bashed in that position.

Specialized with Horst figured out a rear bike suspension 4 bar mechasism that upon compression tightens the chain just a tiny bit as rear axle rotates about the BB shell center as opposed to some designs that get looser. If I would configure this one chain design I would loose use of the Horst mechanism for what is especially good at doing -- an almost constant swing arm radius.

Grantmac,

Re: Testing the 8:1 ratio on the Cyclone 6K 80 amp controller 240 amp discharge on batts

Yard Test: a standing burnout. Failed. Wheel did not turn and dig grove. I weigh 155 and the bike 82 = 237 lbs.

Field Test: 50% grade about 26 degrees. Motor torque saturated at low speed with full throttle. Stalled . Needed duck kick assist to start. Motor temp reached 39C with ambient temp 30F.

The Hill:


Obviously 8:1 fails for this 6k edirtbiking setup. So I uped the ratio to 11:1 .


This 11:1 setup on the 6k motor just passed the yard test.

The Cyclone 3K can pass the yard test and the hill climb with the 14.66:1 total ratio.

DtiK,

.
Hello. I am making rear hub with Halo Fix-G track hub (sturdy easy to replace bearings) with adjustable chainline. CrMo 1/8" fatfoot sprocket. Should be strong unit. Can be used with freewheel or without. So im going without as it allows regen and braking. But adjustable chainline is nice..

Click to expand...

The problem with aluminum splines on an aluminum hub is that the steel cogs used on them wear into & through the splines. The fat food at 7mm wide stops/slows down this wear for human pedaling forces. Maybe not for for a high torque/forces to the wheel applications when powering with a 6K motor ? After wear thru the hub will have to be replaced.

The problem with the Shimano made freehub is that it is aluminum. DT Swiss makes an all steel freehub for their hubs and maybe ? they make a version to fit Shimano and SRAM that has the steel option.

But my failed freehubs have been Shimano at the pawls. My next hub modification will be to fill the pawl area/volume of a steel DT Swiss hub with steel resin making it locked -- like on a motorcycle. If it fails I will not need to spoke relace a new hub.

Regen seriously interferes with critical edirtbike steering control. Secondly I solar charge the bike batteries so I feel no qualms for "wasting the momentum/energy" of potential regen.

Testing the 11: 1 ratio

The Cyclone 6K with an 11:1 ratio zips the bike along with acceleration much better than the 8:1 could do. The 8:1 ratio on a trail was like the best of hub motors BITD. I had both the Crystalyte Crown Motor and the Cromotor V3 which wallowed on start up when on even mild hills of trails.

Before going to the dirtbike hills I gave the 11:1 ratio more burnout tests and thought the dig out ability lacking as there were some stallls. The next ratio to test was the 12:1 but I did the field test with the 11:1 in several ways. The 11:1 performed all the routes and hill climbs somewhat better than the 3K motor. By the ways these tests were done with both the slow start and fast start switches of the emotor program set = zero. I like the Fast Start = 1 in general for trails. AS for the 3 speed switch, all three modes worked fine, except fast mode would get much more acceleration on any of the short straight stretches permitting more speed. The motor chain was 410H with a generic 410 Half link connector and despite this standard half link is not recommended for use with the 410H I was able to do all the bike paths.

A day later, I got a 212 lb edirtbike rider to try the 11:1 ratio. He cruised the first hill that 8:1 ratio could not do with me at 155 lb. On a longer and more difficult hill he failed because the chain broke at the weak half link. We then put on the HL 710 half link chain because to use the 410 H with an extra link would require a tensioner. The HL 710 held up for all the rest of edirtbike hill trails and the heavier rider felt the 11:1 was sufficient. So I took him to the test pieces of the rock crawler vehicles crowd. Near the finish on a difficult rock crawler hill climb he reached torque saturation while at full throttle and stalled. He now thinks a 12:1 ratio is worth trying.

Ps.......he did not notice the wider by 1 inch crank arm placement the 6K requires.

Presently I am waiting for the 36T to make a 12:1 ratio for testing but the mail is slow now from SickBike Parts. I also think 12:1 will be better for bump stop log climbing starts than 11:1 was.

After the 6k motor performance of the week end I decided to swap out the 3K Cyclone motor on another bike but the Cyclone Web ordering site address gave the 404 error page not found for the site I had used for the first 6K motor purchase. Paco of Cyclone upon email to Cyclone sent this link:


Please check https://www.cyclone-tw.com/product/1/data/15

When ordering your kit for the 68mm BB you must tell Cyclone you have to have the 178mm axle and extension parts as the options on the web site do not make this necessity explicitly clear.

I'm looking to acquire a freewheel spider adapter for my Cyclone like this item: http://sickbikeparts.com/freewheel-spider-4-arm-104-mm/ it features the five holes to mate up to the freewheel crank and four 104mm BCD holes for a 104mm BCD chainring:


I've seen these for bafang units and they are less expensive:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001248011527.html



Does anyone know if the five holes for the bafang (BBS) drives are the same BCD as the five holes used for Cyclone drives?

Pwd,

If all else fails, you could buy the 32T chainring form SickBikeParts and use it as an adapter cutting off the teeth if they get in the way. You then would have the right bolt pattern for Cyclone.

Thanks Dingus, the thought of using an existing chainring has crossed my mind. That is probably the most economical choice; especially after my current chainring wears out.

For reference: what I've found so far is that the BCD for the BBSHD is 51mm and 60mm on the BBS02. They are not compatible with Cyclone freewheels with a BCD of 2.63 inches or 66.802mm.

Looks like cyclone is selling a 330mm disc with 6 bolt brake mounting and bcd chainring holes. It’s 3mm thick though which means it won’t work with bicycle calipers I would think?

https://www.cyclone-tw.com/product/14/data/73

Looks like they also do a plain adapter too-

https://www.cyclone-tw.com/product/14/data/56

DtiK,

a few post back I said,

But my failed freehubs have been Shimano at the pawls. My next hub modification will be to fill the pawl area/volume of a steel DT Swiss hub with steel resin making it locked -- like on a motorcycle. If it fails I will not need to spoke relace a new hub.

I was getting tired of waiting for the new freehub arrival so after attempting to remove the bearing race in the freehub without the right adapter I decided to weld the outside shell to the hub side. After taking out the inside seal ring I cleaned the grease out with white gas and exposed the bearings.




Essentially I arc welded over the bearings. I was using a Eutectic high alloy, high strength, low melt temp rod at 45 amps. Some of the rod material poured onto the spline-way and fused preventing installation to the spur of the hub. I was able to Demel Tool this slag out grinding with a diamond powder fused tiny round milling tool. I also ground the end flat.

The fixie hub held on today's hill climbs.

Tommm,

Thanks for pointing out to me the Cyclone with the single chain.

Achieved: Single #415 chain drive with 5/16" thick sprockets from motor to rear wheel while keeping the 11:1 ratio.



With this 2 point sprocket setup (excluding the chain tensioner)the bottom chain line rubs into the lower stay and is likely to cause wear on the stay.

A fixed idler pulley on the BB axle could keep the bottom chain line in proper clearance. A 30T RaceFace 104 sprocket had the proper clearance to not touch the upper chain but move downward the lower chain run. This 30T sprocket was bolted to a 36T steel sprocket (which also helps chain containment) and added to the BB freewheel.



Getting the idler pulley in the right place required some fitting attemps with various spacers but the chain no longer rubs on the lower stay. When running the motor the freewheel and sprockets on the BB axle spin. But if you push hard to pedal without motor assistance the sprocket spins & chatters but slips over the chain without much forward motion.

Another way, maybe simpler, to protect the lower stay would be to reposition the angle of the motor by rotating the motor mounts a bit downward. This would make for a little less central clearance below the motor.

A third way to move the chain out of the stays would be to add a fixed white delrin pulley, like the chain tensioner pulley, mounted between the motor shaft and the BB axle attached to the right motor mount side plate and low. This way is likely quieter than the chain ring but maybe more likely to get bent? To get good overall kinematics of the fixed idler, a mounting location near the BB axle helps. Always Trade offs...





To get the overall 11:1 ratio I used 6 Plantary gearbox x 44T rear / 24 T motor = 11:1. To best use #415 chain for stability the sprockets work best when 5/16" wide. To achieve this thickness I bolted to 2 SickBikePart 3/32" thick 24T steel together and 2 3/32" thick 44T steel each together. You save $$ doing it this way.

The motor sprocket & hub were made using a 20mm ID threaded adapter screwed into what we use for the BB freewheel. The double 24T sprockets were bolted to the 5 hole pattern of the freewheel hub.

This motor hub pulley tended to work outward so I drilled and taped threads (slowly with oil and a lot of reversals) into the end of the motor shaft to fit a 6mm bolt x 25mm long. Such a bolt with a washer would likely keep the motor pulley in place.

A thin fender washer with a thin headed 11.9 strength 6mm bolt keep the motor pulley on the motor shaft s as no translation along the axle.
.

This bolt head protrusion took some fitting & fileing to allow the pedal arm to rotate.

The ebike chain noise is somewhat quieter --a heavier chain makes for a lower pleasing frequency without wine? This ONE chain configuration upon engaging the rear suspension causes the the upper chain run to elevate and this raise causes the chain to rub on the chain guard bending it out of alignment. Will have to do the chain guard a little differently due to chain raise.

Don't hesitate. This bigger motor is worth getting ---........quickly. CHEERS

PS I suspect #410 chain to work fine.

Cyclone GB is 5:1, so your ratio is under 10:1. You could easily do that using only chains and also eliminate the chain growth/contact issues. Which is exactly how LR does their single stage setup, with the added bonus of being able to pedal it (slowly) should you have to.

Of course a left hand parallel drive would be another step better.

Grantmac,

You say, "Cyclone GB". I did a search for "Cyclone GB" on Endless and got"No suitable matches were found'. Could you please explain what is "the Cyclone GB?"

The overall ratio I have is 11:1. I get 6:1 of this ratio from the planetary gears. Adding chains to get ratios of 8:1 is not a satisfactory enough reduction for what I do.

LR may sell a One Chain Motor Kit and you call it "their single stage setup". The second stage is designed by the consumer of his product. You then have two chain drives, whereas my setup now has only one chain setup.

I have done some decibel studies of the Cyclone gearbox and its chains reported on this thread. More noise comes from the chains than the gearbox.

The gearboxes outlast many (dirty) chains and sprockets. The LR #219 chain is the most expensive out there and that size seems to have less adapters & parts and less vendors. LR often did not have spare parts on hand and I would locate other vendors to have less down time.

If you are quite obsessed with the LR kit design, fine, but I have had his products and know his antics. You can talk his talk but I have done his walk. It seems by your talking points that you do not know what the tradeoffs are when implementing his design? Chains on a dirtbike are a maintenance problem. If you have more chain groups, you have more problems. Little chains wear out faster than big chains.

What do you mean by "chain growth"?

It seems your problem is the gearbox and you use LR's one sided talking points. Well, get over it. Start building something and report it on this site? You will learn tradeoffs--a knowledge you lack.

The cyclone planetary is 5:1, not 6:1 they state that planely on their website.
It creates a wide setup with poor q-factor and significant loss in efficiency compared to a primary and secondary reduction from chains.

You can build what you like, but its really just bolting whatever cyclone sells onto a bike. Something I've already done and seen the limitations of. If I was to build a 6-10kw bike I'd be using the far superior QS motors in a two stage reduction.

Grantmac said:

The cyclone planetary is 5:1, not 6:1 they state that planely on their website.

Click to expand...

Cyclone 3k planetary is 6:1 unless they have changed/redesigned it completely. I couldn't find any info about it on their website.

PS: From experience, I don't agree with your claims about q-factor and loss of efficiency.

Grantmac and Minimun,

Let's get some hands on expertise to decide who is correct on the gear ratio? We will not resolve what Cyclone has to say on this as that is an issue Grantmac will have to show proof of what Cyclone says. Okay?

There are 2 ways to determine planetary gear ratios.

1. Using an actual gearbox count how many turns the sun gear makes to turn the output shaft once. I just happen to have a Cyclone Gearbox handy.



2. Count the number of teeth on the Sun, the Planets and the ring, then do the correct kinematic math for how this system meshes. The teeth respectively are 11 teeth for the Sun, 3 Planets at 22 teeth each, and the ring has 55 teeth. Only a fool would say it is 55/11 =5?

Let's consult science engineeering.

See; https://www.google.com/search?q=calculating+planetary+gear+ratios&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS592US601&oq=calculating+planetary+&aqs=chrome.0.0l2j69i57j0.15987j1j7&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

The opening page for the link:



Another calculation for this since the carrier is the output shaft.



QED

Using the ratio formula correctly my numbers from calculation and hands on turning match. I will say that the ratio is either 5:1 or 6:1 so either Grantmac or Minimun is full of it.

Since carrier (the piece that holds planetary gears) is output, as you posted there are two ways to calculate gearing:
a:
1 + "sun ring teeth #" / "sun gear teeth #"
1 + 55/11 = 6

b:
("sun ring teeth #" + "sun gear teeth #") / "sun gear teeth #"
(55+11)/11=6