GNG / CYC X1 Pro 3000w

Ham said:

Gen 2 here too and very happy with it. Pas mode is sublime. Throttle is a little like an on/ off switch but i rarely use it so far.

App is good apart from the lack of full details on what the settings all do in detail.

Having electronic "gears" within each of the three modes is damn good too...nice to be able to have a quick way to switch the motor into a zero output mode and back again.

Click to expand...

How is it freewheeling and when you only want pedal power? Any big drag? I assume you can limit amps as customized options within those 3 modes?

They have a smaller, lower power / lower cost, X1 Stealth due out in Oct that I want to get.

Ham said:

Gen 2 here too and very happy with it. Pas mode is sublime. Throttle is a little like an on/ off switch but i rarely use it so far.

App is good apart from the lack of full details on what the settings all do in detail.

Having electronic "gears" within each of the three modes is damn good too...nice to be able to have a quick way to switch the motor into a zero output mode and back again.

Click to expand...

PAS is sublime? Where do I sign up? Have you ridden many other torque PAS to compare?

If you have the time to write a little about the riding experience and day to day practicalities of your build that would be great.

I started a thread about a large battery X1 GEN 2/EEB frame that I'm considering and would love to hear everyone's comments and thoughts.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=107705&p=1576732&sid=3b8ab09996573854d7b239dcb6f9aaee#p1576732

neutro said:

Ham said:

Gen 2 here too and very happy with it. Pas mode is sublime. Throttle is a little like an on/ off switch but i rarely use it so far.

App is good apart from the lack of full details on what the settings all do in detail.

Having electronic "gears" within each of the three modes is damn good too...nice to be able to have a quick way to switch the motor into a zero output mode and back again.

Click to expand...

PAS is sublime? Where do I sign up? Have you ridden many other torque PAS to compare?

If you have the time to write a little about the riding experience and day to day practicalities of your build that would be great.

I started a thread about a large battery X1 GEN 2/EEB frame that I'm considering and would love to hear everyone's comments and thoughts.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=107705&p=1576732&sid=3b8ab09996573854d7b239dcb6f9aaee#p1576732

Click to expand...

I think the cyc x1 is way too small of a motor to be paired with a heavy beast like an eeb. It will be underpowered, and the motor will be overworked.

For comparison. QS motor 1000w mid drive is 90mm diameter stator vs cyc 80mm, and 70mm magnet height vs cyc 40mm.

"PAS is sublime? Where do I sign up? Have you ridden many other torque PAS to compare?"

I have access to a levo (maybe 100 mile so far on it) which is an awesome pas machine and have set my cyc x1 up to pretty much match it, capped at about 750w for pas mode and although the levo is still a little smoother and faster to engage with what feels like a touch more torque throughout the range the cyc is excellent and is as much fun and as easy to ride IMO.

Changing the starting torque sensor setting to much lower may provide an experience nearer to the levo but I like mine to kick in after about 20nm is applied right now.

I'm still waiting to hear back from cyc about some of the settings in the sensor menu and a small glitch with the odometer resetting to 2.1km after each ride which they say is a new problem they've not heard of before.

Throttle experience compared to the tangent set up is
nowhere near as slick but i built this as a pas machine with throttle as a last resort/nice option. It rarely sees any use at all. Maybe 5 times in about 300 miles so far.

Tommm said:

I think the cyc x1 is way too small of a motor to be paired with a heavy beast like an eeb. It will be underpowered, and the motor will be overworked.

For comparison. QS motor 1000w mid drive is 90mm diameter stator vs cyc 80mm, and 70mm magnet height vs cyc 40mm.

Click to expand...

Thanks Tomm, good information. Have you seen the X1/EEB build I linked? 72v6KW motor with a BAC2000 according to the pic.


Maybe you could suggest a build Tomm? I linked Ziltoid's 25000km commuter build in my thread. My needs are almost identical, except a torque PAS is essential. A torque PAS experience near to the LMX experience would be great, sublime PAS like Ham's build would also be acceptable
Mid drive or rear hub, I don't care. This will be a flat land, unpaved canal path, long distance commuter. I asked about the X1/EEB build because reports of the X1 torque sensing were good and the build was pictured on the cyc website.

I guess I'm asking if there is a good torque sensing solution for a QULBIX/RISUN type frame with a large battery and rear hubmotor .


edit: just realised that this is the X1 GEN 1 thread, I was referring to the GEN 2 all along, as per the X1 build I linked.

Ham said:

I have access to a levo (maybe 100 mile so far on it) which is an awesome pas machine and have set my cyc x1 up to pretty much match it, capped at about 750w for pas mode and although the levo is still a little smoother and faster to engage with what feels like a touch more torque throughout the range the cyc is excellent and is as much fun and as easy to ride IMO.

Throttle experience compared to the tangent set up is
nowhere near as slick but i built this as a pas machine with throttle as a last resort/nice option. It rarely sees any use at all. Maybe 5 times in about 300 miles so far.

Click to expand...

Appreciate the detail Ham, am looking to build a PAS machine too just heavier I think. There is precedent though:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=107705&p=1576732&sid=3b8ab09996573854d7b239dcb6f9aaee#p1576732

Am keen to hear any input you may have on that thread.

My tangent build was very custom with home made motor mounts attaching the motor directly to the frame which was a cheap steel stealth copy similar to the eeb that held about 200 18650's in a custom made pack of vtc5a cells. Through the alfine 8 IGH (I dont see a reason to ever run a cassette set up ever again).

No PAS on my Tangent build. I used to get between 30 miles if I rode with heavy throttle acceleration off road all the time or double that if i rode gently along side levo's and the like.

So far, this build on a stumpjumper fsr frame is superior in every way for me (aside from throttle), the battery pack is less than half the physcial size and thus weight with 1kwh density vs over 2kwh (frame mods incoming for an in frame battery. I get around 40 to 50 miles offroad with this 1kwh pack.

Two very different bikes, one was a heavy 45mph beast which was a totally reliable hoot and this one is a 35mph ninja that offers that wonderful superlegs feeling. I can adjust the app settings if i want more of a workout or simply put the PAS in "neutral" with one button press on the stock display.

I see the appeal for the heavier bigger frame with more battery and throttle set up which is why i built the tangent the way i did...emoto is great fun. For me, right now, x1 pro gen2 pas set up is as near to perfect as I can get. I have throttle if I want it but can pedal up to about 30 - 35mph on a 26" wheel comfortably and on an MTB frame with no wheel balancing...is plenty enough for me these days. 40 50 mph was fun for short bursts on the older one but rarely got used.

Where are you in the UK?

Thanks for taking the time to write this Ham, it's appreciated. Exactly the kind of detail I'm looking for.

Ham said:

My tangent build was very custom with home made motor mounts attaching the motor directly to the frame which was a cheap steel stealth copy similar to the eeb that held about 200 18650's in a custom made pack of vtc5a cells. Through the alfine 8 IGH (I dont see a reason to ever run a cassette set up ever again).

Click to expand...

Very interesting, have been looking at IGHs and considering one. I treat cycle drivetrains with kid gloves (for longevity) so I hopefully would be able to use an IGH on an ebike without breaking it.

Ham said:

So far, this build on a stump jumper fsr frame is superior in every way for me (aside from throttle), the battery pack is less than half the physcial size and thus weight with 1kwh density vs over 2kwh (frame mods incoming for an in frame battery. I get around 40 to 50 miles offroad with this 1kwh pack.

Two very different bikes, one was a heavy 45mph beast which was a totally reliable hoot and this one is a 35mph ninja that offers that wonderful superlegs feeling. I can adjust the app settings if i want more of a workout or simply put the PAS in "neutral" with one button press on the stock display.

I see the appeal for the heavier bigger frame with more battery and throttle set up which is why i built the tangent the way i did...emoto is great fun. For me, right now, x1 pro gen2 pas set up is as near to perfect as I can get. I have throttle if I want it but can pedal up to about 30 - 35mph on a 26" wheel comfortably and on an MTB frame with no wheel balancing...is plenty enough for me these days. 40 50 mph was fun for short bursts on the older one but rarely got used.

Where are you in the UK?

Click to expand...

That stumpjumper build sounds great. In an ideal world, with access to a fabricator to mod the frame for an in-frame battery, and maybe an additional external auxiliary battery for occasional longer journeys, that would be my build.

The thing is, I need the ability to lock the bike on the street occasionally, in places where anything that has the appearance of being attached to a bicycle frame will be cut off with a grinder. People are well aware of the value of battery packs today too.

A qulbix/risun EEB frame will at least give the appearance of an impenetrable battery box enclosure, slightly more deterrence, and some peace of mind if I have to lock the bike on the street for a few moments.

Fully agree on the speeds too. 30Mph pedal cruising seems ideal for the same reasons you outlined. Can't afford an injury and want the exercise.

I'm in the midlands, hopefully covid doesn't change that. Do you do the frame mods for an in-frame battery yourself or do you have access to a craftsman to do it?

The alfine 8 has held up very well for me over the years fwiw. Just back off power when gear changing is all.

Yes theiving little oiks are an issue... I'll not leave any bike locked up in public unless it's an obvious scrapper tbh.

The frame mods will be done by me at some stage yes. Work space is way too limiting and I'm not fully decided on a design or even if it'll be this frame yet... I think I want an orange patriot frame to work with but they're a little pricey for me right now.

If you're down near Surrey any time then feel free to message me and you're welcome to a test on this x1 pro gen 2 setup

Won't take you up on that anytime soon, but many thanks for the offer and info. Just have to decide on a build now.

The planning stage is great fun until you add prices to the shopping list

Ham said:

The planning stage is great fun until you add prices to the shopping list

Click to expand...

I'd kind of prefer to have a definitive parts and supplier list and skip to the assembly stage tbh

I'm leaning towards the X1/RISUN build from the cyc website, pictured in my build thread, partly because it seems like a straightforward assembly job. No fabrication and little fettling. Any opinions? Tomm thought that the X1 would be overstressed for the weight of the battery and frame, but I'm not sure if he was aware of all the specs of the build.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=107705&sid=5712e155c33590a31ccbc4afc083ae27

Also looking for a UK based battery builder if you have any leads.

The stock controller gives 3000w The BAC955 controller second opinion does 3500 Watts you need the third upgrade for the 5000 Watts as advertised this is not in the fine print and when you get the 855 controller you must have the Bluetooth wiring harness they sent me the wrong one so I'm wait another couple weeks for them to send me the right working wiring harness. The x1 pro gen 2. So ask questions and get answers before order. As you have to wait 4weeks after order.

neutro said:

Ham said:

The planning stage is great fun until you add prices to the shopping list

Click to expand...

I'd kind of prefer to have a definitive parts and supplier list and skip to the assembly stage tbh

I'm leaning towards the X1/RISUN build from the cyc website, pictured in my build thread, partly because it seems like a straightforward assembly job. No fabrication and little fettling. Any opinions? Tomm thought that the X1 would be overstressed for the weight of the battery and frame, but I'm not sure if he was aware of all the specs of the build.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=107705&sid=5712e155c33590a31ccbc4afc083ae27

Also looking for a UK based battery builder if you have any leads.

Click to expand...

I may know of someone to build a pack for you. Pm me the specs you want to save this thread from clogging up.

Some updates after a few hundred miles of riding:

Love the kit as a whole, PAS is wonderful and nearly Levo esque in integration. Only thing lacking in this regard is how quickly the motor re-engages after a gear change or coasting. Initial engaging from stop is great. Perhaps access to an uprate ramp setting would help.

The stock thumb throttle is is too lightly sprung for any real off road continuous use IMO...to springy and janky in it's mechanical action. No doubt a sweet domino twist would be smoother, anyone rewired a domino to suit this setup?

The app for android has so much potential and as is works pretty well. Perhaps the language barrier or at least phrasing of what each setting does is a little "off" as some of the settings just don't work as per the wording or the wording is just plain weird/confusing. Gear settings and mode options are cool to have and being able to flick to a "neutral" gear is a nice touch.

Perhaps I struggle with the settings as I am more used to the Cycle Analyst settings.

A few issues:

My Odometer resets itself every time I unplug the battery. Sometimes it resets to 20 ish KM and others to 58km...CYC have no clue why this is, neither do I. It is frustrating as calculating my range is irksome.

The battery level indicator is a bit of a joker, I run 14s with a cutoff at 42v...the on screen indicator shows empty at about 52v. The bike still runs fine at this level so doesn't affect anything other than the display bars.

Sometimes the PAS needs massive amounts of torque to kick in, a quick unplug and plug in cures this. I wonder if at times I have had pressure on the crank when plugging in and this somehow effects the sensor upon powering on...perhaps it "zeros" itself each start up?

The bottom bracket retaining caps that screw on are a strange one as they have to be very loosely tightened down else the crank binds...I have loctited them as they work loose with how loosely they have be on but I feel this slack allows a little lateral play in the freewheel. It'll likely lead to premature failure of the freewheel.

All in all I am very pleased and highly recommend this kit to anyone looking for a slick PAS and throttle system. I am sure the app bugs will be refined as we go.

Hi guys
Is anyone using this PAS with cycle analyst?
How close do the crankarms have to be in order for the PAS to start engaging?? Thx

ebike11 said:

Hi guys
Is anyone using this PAS with cycle analyst?
How close do the crankarms have to be in order for the PAS to start engaging?? Thx

Click to expand...

very close but angle is more important. It's very exact angle.

DtiK said:

ebike11 said:

Hi guys
Is anyone using this PAS with cycle analyst?
How close do the crankarms have to be in order for the PAS to start engaging?? Thx

Click to expand...

very close but angle is more important. It's very exact angle.

Click to expand...

hi
may i ask how close? how about in your case?
thanks

Hello,
i made some tests with this PAS E-Rider with a Cycle Analyst 3,
and you have to know that you cannot use Torque Sensor to start motor from stop.
You can adjust torque parameter to have a motor reacting as you wish,
but it's not possible to start from stop !
I ask question to Justin from ebike.ca, and he do that for security reason, to avoid unwanted motor start.

It was not the way i expect, so i stop use this configuration.

Olivier

ebike11 said:

DtiK said:

ebike11 said:

Hi guys
Is anyone using this PAS with cycle analyst?
How close do the crankarms have to be in order for the PAS to start engaging?? Thx

Click to expand...

very close but angle is more important. It's very exact angle.

Click to expand...

hi
may i ask how close? how about in your case?
thanks

Click to expand...

Almost touching. Under 1mm. Put it more away and not working.

DtiK said:

ebike11 said:

DtiK said:

ebike11 said:

Hi guys
Is anyone using this PAS with cycle analyst?
How close do the crankarms have to be in order for the PAS to start engaging?? Thx

Click to expand...

very close but angle is more important. It's very exact angle.

Click to expand...

hi
may i ask how close? how about in your case?
thanks

Click to expand...

Almost touching. Under 1mm. Put it more away and not working.

Click to expand...

Wow thata super close

Ham said:

Sometimes the PAS needs massive amounts of torque to kick in, a quick unplug and plug in cures this. I wonder if at times I have had pressure on the crank when plugging in and this somehow effects the sensor upon powering on...perhaps it "zeros" itself each start up?

Click to expand...

Ahh thats shit, which Torque sensor is it exactly, is it Erider T9?
Because i think i have a similar issue, but i am running totally different setup and drive system. It is Nucular Controller with Hubmotor.
PAS sometimes works as it should and then sometimes it needs twice or three times higher force on the pedals to give the same torque signal output.
In my case there should not be a prolem with "zeros itself each start" since i do not had pressure on the pedals, and the controller does show torque signal which is also different then (totally different response). Powering on/off makes the sensor to work like normal almost each time, but this cannot be the solution.. right?

I am afraid I don't know exactly which torque sensor I have...it is just the standard one that came with my gen 2 kit.

I am trying to fix a new "interesting" problem I had at the weekend...the bike went full power and stuck on full power when i was trying to pass walkers in the woods...fans of mud later and I managed to pull the plug.

So far I have cleaned the torque sensor, throttle and display as it has condensation under the screen (stood it in front of a heater for a while to clear the screen).

Now when I plug in and select an active gear it just goes to some kind of cruise mode and wont stop. CYC are being helpful in trying to find the issue over email.

I suspect it is water damage somewhere as it is very muddy and wet here right now.

Ham said:

I am afraid I don't know exactly which torque sensor I have...it is just the standard one that came with my gen 2 kit.

I am trying to fix a new "interesting" problem I had at the weekend...the bike went full power and stuck on full power when i was trying to pass walkers in the woods...fans of mud later and I managed to pull the plug.

So far I have cleaned the torque sensor, throttle and display as it has condensation under the screen (stood it in front of a heater for a while to clear the screen).

Now when I plug in and select an active gear it just goes to some kind of cruise mode and wont stop. CYC are being helpful in trying to find the issue over email.

I suspect it is water damage somewhere as it is very muddy and wet here right now.

Click to expand...

The throttle is a $2 one, it is known to get stuck after riding in rain. First you'd have to rule that out.
Second, make sure you have a working brake sensor before you do a test ride on any DIY build, otherwise you are taking a chance killing someone including yourself.

Thanks,

I believe I have ruled out the throttle as the problem still exists without the throttle connected.

The brake cut offs are too shit to have on...they bounce about and lose connection over any bump fwiw. I can pull my power in a second if need be.