Xtracycle Build Log

I actually do have one. That's how I'm determining watt hours used. It's like 9 years old and still ticking.!
 
neptronix said:
A turnigy watt meter ( ~$25 ) is a nice ghetto alternative to a cycle analyst.
Not for this purpose--it can't modify the throttle signal based on settings to "alter" (reduce) the current limit of a controller.
 
OK, so a little update on what's been done recently:

-New custom sewn "freeloader" bags installed.
-Front and rear derailleur installed, functions ok.
-Rear freewheel Had to be spaced out from the hub motor a bit to allow it to shift into lowest gear
-Front BB7 caliper installed (got a used version, no torx bit on the inside adjustment, I highly recommend getting the newer versions)
-New handlebar & grips are in
-New rear tire (one that came with the hub-motor/wheel had a significant crooked section in it, whole bike fishtailed every rotation)

To-dos:

-Make running boards for the xtracycle frame (kids need a place to put feet that isn't my panniers)
-Mount rear BB7 brake
-Tune the BB7 brake up front, feels like it's under-performing
-New seat
-Better position the computer
-Splice in the plug to the old throttle into the new one (going from half-twist to thumb)
-New pedals
-Make a chain idler system similar to this
-Re-mount the hailong battery with a reinforced plate similar to Justin's triple-bob plate
-Relocate controller and clean-up wiring
-Get no-load max rpm value, run grin simulator to determine where my efficiency should be
-Mount headlight
-Finish mounting rear fender

Issues:
-Chain can fall off the largest sprocket on the freewheel
-Front brake under-performing
-Spokes on rear wheel likely need re-tensioned

-Budget update:
Purchased:
-$15 frame
-$62 fork
-$140 free radical
-$20 xtracycle wood deck
-$80 rear 1000W motor kit 26"
-$40 paint job
-$23 disc brakes kit
-$35 Headset
-$24 bottom bracket
-$12 grips
-$75 front wheel
-$7 front derailleur
-$25 rear derailleur (old one was shot)
-$65 avid BB7 calipers
-$418 52v hailong style battery with samsung cells, ebay (seller: cowellcowinbattery ... relatively new, they had a small mess up that cost me some time, but they made it right (sent wrong battery by mistake)
-$0 Custom pannier bags (thanks mom!)
-$55 New rear tire, Schwalbe marathon plus

TOTAL: $1096 all-in so far. I might be missing cable ends, housing, and the sort... but really that totals about $20 or so.

NOW, photos:
20210220_154752.jpg
TGB 2.jpg

As an aside: These old-ass BB7s do not have the torx fastener that you can adjust with a t-wrench... ANNOYING.
bb7 inner.JPG

That is all for now. It's finally coming together!

OH- and my daughter tentatively titled the projec "The Green Bean" ... I think it's going to stick! :lol:
 
Progress:
-Tuned the BB7 brake up front, feels like it's under-performing
-Spliced in the plug from the old throttle into the new one (going from half-twist to thumb)-->not so happy with this one.
-New seat ordered
-New pedals ordered
-Finished mounting rear fender, mostly.
-Got no-load speed of 70kph, need to do the calc for circumference, but that's tire/wheel dependent. I need to do a GPS run and compare it to the computer's value, that should get me a correction factor that's fairly accurate. Either that or get an RPM-meter ...
-Re-mounted the hailong battery with a reinforced plate similar to Justin's triple-bob plate
hailong brkt.JPG

To-DO:
-Make running boards for the xtracycle frame (kids need a place to put feet that isn't my panniers)
-Mount rear BB7 brake
-Better position the computer

-Make a chain idler system similar to this
-Relocate controller and clean-up wiring
-Mount headlight

Made progress on the to-do list with an item that was not on it: Make a new front attachment plate, or FAP.
AttachmentPlate_web.jpg

This is the part I'm copying, because it's either too expensive or to hard to get a hold of one. So I at first made a delrin one with my table-saw:
FMP Delrin.jpg

It was plastically-deforming (yes, that's a pun), so it was time to upgrade to a new one. I got a non-ferrous metals blade for my saw some time back, and decided it was time to give it a go:
FAP Alum & Delrin.jpg

It works fairly well, and enables someone with an average shop tool to do some basic machining. A bit of filing after and it's pretty much done. I want to take out some weight by cutting a profile as below, then will probably powder coat it.
FAP cutout.JPG

I also wound up finding a score on some "Footsies" for my kids to put their feet on for $15!
footsies.jpg

Up next is to:
-Put on brand new BB7s, I kind of hate the old ones.
-New seat
...everything else on that last list :lol:
 
amberwolf said:
You don't really need to know the specific winding...

Once you know the unloaded RPM, you can guesstimate the loaded RPM as around 80% of that...

But with the RPM you can try to match a similar motor on the simulator to use as a stand in for yours when experimenting with the simulator to find a more optimal setup.

I got the no load RPM and voltage/current, which came out to 10.00KV on the nose. Running a custom motor with similar KV and the default winding resistance, I'm getting a simulator value of 27wh/mi at 75% throttle 52v. Right now I'm getting 40+, so something seems wacky. I have a hunch it's this craptastic controller, which is only good to 13A. I can get to 30mph, but only just. Once i get the new brakes on I'll give it a try for another efficiency measurement. Then I'll maybe have a good idea of what this system is capable of.
 
I am having a pretty severe concentricity issue with the rear hub-motor-wheel and its tire. This problem was present on the previous cheap tire that came with the wheel motor kit, so I think that's some evidence ruling out tire manufacture error to a reasonable degree.

Any input would be helpful. I took the tire off the rim and inspected the inside for possible manufacturing defects on the rim, but didn't spot any. I will take another look at it as soon as I can, as I feel I might've missed something. External dimensions on the rim are pretty consistent (rim braking surface-to-surface) when measured with a caliper.

Here's a video of the issue:
[youtube=ctOiWb9_xzw][/youtube]
 
After a little hunting, I found this page. It details what to do if the bead is sitting too low, so I'll try some extra high tire pressure when I get home. I've ridden on it for miles with the offset and it hadn't self-corrected, so I was sure there was some sort of manufacturing defect with the rim bead surface.
 
Welp, I tried soaking the Schwalbe tire in soap and going clear to 70psi, massaging it as it inflated, and multiple inflations, but i could not get that tire to seat.

I tried the cheap tire that came with the kit again using the same techniques, aaaaand now i have a fully seated tire. Huh. What the hell Schwalbe?

I have to try to return it now... where's that damn receipt... :pancake:
 
I managed to snap the old tire into place properly for now. I will make another attempt at the Schwalbe this week and see if I can get it to go. My spokes still need re-tensioning I believe, so I'll be putting it back on the table for that soon.

Other than that, the little 4 bob support plate I 3d-printed seems to do really well at holding the hailong battery on. Right now it's only in place with the two bottle cage screws, but I have an updated version I still need to print (out of a less heat-sensitive plastic than PLA) that will allow for hose-clamps to go over it.

I'm finding the chainrings I have up front are far too small for my pedaling cadence to keep up at 45kph! I'll need to get some bigger chainrings up front, but that's not a huge issue.

The throttle I bought has issues, namely a very narrow range of input. I'm either too slow or full bore. Hard to get any throttle values in between. If anyone knows of a source for a good high-quality no-LED thumb throttle, I'd love to see it.

I also need to install a switch for activating the PAS. You'd think it would be smart to include a button-driven function on the controller LCD display to turn that on and off, but as it is if it's plugged in PAS is on, which is annoying. It's not like you can turn the assist level to 0 and just use the throttle either, as 0 turns off the throttle as well! That's all for now I believe... need to get a headlight system in place and re-adjust brakes/derailleurs a little but that's about it. This one's almost done!

Controller re-positioned into the free radical attachment arm. Not sure if this is permanent yet... probably will do a cover and mounting plate of some sort.

TGB Controller mount.jpg
 
dequinox said:
The throttle I bought has issues, namely a very narrow range of input. I'm either too slow or full bore. Hard to get any throttle values in between.
Is your controller programmable? You may be able to dial in the throttle or otherwise better tune the controller's reaction to it.
 
dequinox said:
The throttle I bought has issues, namely a very narrow range of input. I'm either too slow or full bore. Hard to get any throttle values in between.

Are you using the Wuxing 130X throttle?

O1CN010kyoAC1KbOdzFPDPa_!!6000000001182-0-tbvideo.jpg


If so, it's pretty abrupt and insensitive. I've gotten much better feel and definition from the Wuxing 108X paddle type throttle:

12_e65b2006-c972-4802-9bd9-6af2e16eaa6c_1200x1200.jpg


Note that the 130X can be used on the left or right, but you have to get the 108X in one version or the other.
 
Sadly it's not. Just a cheapo brushless, nothing special about it. At least I don't think so...

The throttle didn't become a problem until I switched to the Wuxing 130 Chalo mentions above.

99t4 said:
dequinox said:
The throttle I bought has issues, namely a very narrow range of input. I'm either too slow or full bore. Hard to get any throttle values in between.
Is your controller programmable? You may be able to dial in the throttle or otherwise better tune the controller's reaction to it.
 
Thanks for the suggestion! Yes, the problem with the 130x (which I didn't know that was until you mentioned it) is that it's dead, then abrupt near the full throttle. I'll give that other model a try.

Chalo said:
I've gotten much better feel and definition from the Wuxing 108X paddle type throttle:
Note that the 130X can be used on the left or right, but you have to get the 108X in one version or the other.
 
Purchased a new throttle, the 108X, which should show up later this week.

I'm noticing that I get about 30% higher energy consumption than my RBF Cruiser with this bike. My cruiser gets around 30 Whr/mi, whereas this one gets about 42 Whr/mi with similar weight and throttle aggressiveness. I notice significantly higher spinning resistance (push wheel with a finger and see how long it takes to stop) than my RBF Cruiser as well... what causes might this point to?
 
dequinox said:
I notice significantly higher spinning resistance (push wheel with a finger and see how long it takes to stop) than my RBF Cruiser as well... what causes might this point to?

Too-tight axle bearings, or a dragging brake pad. In neither case would it make a difference in Wh/mi efficiency, but in both cases it would dramatically increase wear of the affected component.

30% difference in efficiency between your two bikes probably indicates one of two things: either a major difference in aerodynamic qualities (mainly riding position), or a difference in average speed. Motor efficiency and mechanical losses might differ, but not by nearly that large a margin.
 
Chalo said:
Too-tight axle bearings, or a dragging brake pad. In neither case would it make a difference in Wh/mi efficiency, but in both cases it would dramatically increase wear of the affected component.
30% difference in efficiency between your two bikes probably indicates one of two things: either a major difference in aerodynamic qualities (mainly riding position), or a difference in average speed. Motor efficiency and mechanical losses might differ, but not by nearly that large a margin.

I'm not entirely sure it's aero, as I tuck when I go over 25 on both vehicles. Both have similar top speeds, though slightly different acceleration feel. I kind of attributed the latter to the front vs rear wheel difference. It really does feel as if there's drag of some sort on the rear... so I'm thinking bearing. I've ruled out the disc rubbing already through inspection. I'm leaning toward a screwy bearing or some sort of shenanigans with the rear axle/motor.
 
dequinox said:
Chalo said:
30% difference in efficiency between your two bikes probably indicates one of two things: either a major difference in aerodynamic qualities (mainly riding position), or a difference in average speed.

I'm not entirely sure it's aero, as I tuck when I go over 25 on both vehicles.

Note that moving through air at 28.5 uses 30% more power than it does at 25. It could be as simple as that.
 
Chalo said:
Note that moving through air at 28.5 uses 30% more power than it does at 25. It could be as simple as that.
That's true, however I do ride at nearly 30 on both vehicles :lol:
I do need to verify the weight too though, the xtracycle is all steel and my cruiser is aluminum.
 
Well shart. :evil:
The Green Bean broke down yesterday... Something in the motor-controller system. Went to accelerate across a road and the power cut out followed immediately by MASSIVE cogging torque slowing my momentum down. The display read "error 6" also... Which I have yet to interpret. I haven't a manual. It felt like the leads to the motor were shorted. I'm leaning toward a controller failure, but will know more when I tear it down. I'm the meantime I'm going to rest the motor with a spare controller I have, then send it out for spoke re-tensioning. I've not been able to get that right myself.
 
Chalo said:
dequinox said:
The throttle I bought has issues, namely a very narrow range of input. I'm either too slow or full bore. Hard to get any throttle values in between.

Are you using the Wuxing 130X throttle?

O1CN010kyoAC1KbOdzFPDPa_!!6000000001182-0-tbvideo.jpg


If so, it's pretty abrupt and insensitive. I've gotten much better feel and definition from the Wuxing 108X paddle type throttle:

12_e65b2006-c972-4802-9bd9-6af2e16eaa6c_1200x1200.jpg


Note that the 130X can be used on the left or right, but you have to get the 108X in one version or the other.
I have both of these throttles on my bike, and I do like the 108X paddle type the most out of the thumb throttles. I was going to add that the affordable non-programable motor controllers like dequinox has and all of the ones I've used are speed controllers. They end up feeling like a very narrow window of adjustment. The motor simulator comparison below has only one difference; a custom voltage based controller vs. a custom torque based controller. Held at 50% throttle, the standard voltage type controller will put out the full 43 pounds of thrust until 10mph, and then start tapering down. The torque based controller (similar to a phaserunner) will put out a continuous 21 pounds of thrust no matter the speed.

Also, all of the PAS cadence sensors I've tried on non-programable motor controllers are like a delayed binary on/off switch. They pump out close to full throttle at any pedal speed. Let me know what you find :)

ACtC-3c6sR7yelmmmoozWAgG5XEd-PYzcpruiig5t27vjl4146SeNKAqsYHeEVluXpdz5GzUjLPw8aDLNMZ7sTqz_wukqNWxHCIAAqztQxTWL1YixRCMeHVG9SkbpZmnVnb74JyZ3JK26CB8qLiPKr1MYPDi=w1403-h734-no
 
I just found your thread, so forgive me for being late :)

The first disc brakes I tried were also Blue Sunshine brand, and they were frictionless garbage. I know that lots of people recommend the Avid BB7 cable brakes, but I really recommend this Tektro HD-M285 (or HD-M290) front and rear set. The hydraulic feel is fantastic, and since there is a piston for each pad, you don't have to keep adjusting the calipers as the pads wear down. No silly conical washers either, which I feel is totally unnecessary for disc brakes since there's no angle to match like rim brakes.

If they come with the green organic/resin pads, they are fine. The black metallic/sintered pads are poor, and the best pads I've tried are the Shimano B01S here.

I have lots of Schwalbe tires, and the Marathon MTB tires I've mounted have the same problem as your Marathon tire. It's like the bead of the tire isn't a large enough diameter to seat around the entire wheel. I was recommended by Neptronix to try low pressure, and pry the tire with your hands to pull that beat outwards. Good luck...

Love the bike, and have fun!
 
thundercamel said:
No silly conical washers either, which I feel is totally unnecessary for disc brakes since there's no angle to match like rim brakes.

Well, yes... but no. Disc tabs aren't always perfectly aligned. In fact, they are rarely perfectly aligned. Spherical washers allow you to bring the caliper in alignment with the rotor, wherever it is, and lock it down.

At the bike shop, we have a milling tool to cut true faces into the disc tabs. They can insure the mounting points are square to the rotor, but there's no assurance that they're coplanar with each other.

Spherical washers are easier.
 
thundercamel said:
I have both of these throttles on my bike, and I do like the 108X paddle type the most out of the thumb throttles. ... Let me know what you find :)

It showed up in the mail the other day, so I'll install it and see how it feels comparatively. I have to replace the controller while I work on the busted one too, and that'll potentially color the results... so I will leave the old throttle on at first and then try it, and later install the other one and see how it feels.

thundercamel said:
I just found your thread, so forgive me for being late :) ... Good luck...

Love the bike, and have fun!

I considered hydraulics, but decided against it for a couple reasons, the main one being that the rear one has to be a bit longer than your average MTB brake line. Another is that I have a 203mm rear disc which is already quite powerful with a mechanical setup. Honestly I'd also argue overall cost, but I kind of bought 3 complete sets of calipers to get to this point :lol:
I think I might upgrade the front to hydraulic at some point, but don't have a definite plan. The BB7s are working pretty well so far, MILES better than the knock-off junk from 3rd party amazon sellers.
Thanks for the well-wishes!
 
Back
Top