New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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Waynemarlow   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Feb 17 2021 7:22am

Well that told me. Yup the Bosch does have a more pleasant noise but I would put the overall motor noise about the same as the best of the TSDZ2's we have.

Then we have the Bosch CX rattle when not peddling, the TSDZ2 is infinately quieter. When you can hear the rattle 2 bikes away as soon as you all stop peddling, then you know its loud and really annoying. :D

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Feb 17 2021 7:54am

Waynemarlow wrote:
Feb 17 2021 6:22am
The later helical gears are much much quieter once they have worn in for a couple of hundred clicks and been regreased. Is the effort worth more than simply buying a later motor ?
I have helical gears in all my EBike TSDZ2 motors and they clearly do an annoying audible noise that other good EBike motors do not do.
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Wapous   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Wapous » Feb 17 2021 4:08pm

jbalat wrote:
Feb 17 2021 1:13am
Wapous, not sure I understand
Are you saying you may have the number of teeth wrong and the shape of the teeth may be incorrect and not sized properly ?
There is a big difference between preparing technical drawings for production and machining and preparing drawings to present a design for illustration.
McMaster is a good source for CAD drawings, but in our case you have to have the technical data from the manufacturer or try to design our gears with measurements taken from what we have.
For example, a 100mm diameter spur gear with 100 teeth will not look the same as the same 100mm gear but with 90 teeth.
So if you want to send me the basic information below, I could prepare CAD plans for 3D printing or CAM machining.
So I need to know for each gear;

1- Thickness.
2- Number of teeth.
3- Pitch diameter. (~ Middle of the tooth)
4- Major diameter.
5- Minor diameter.

Have you thought about replacing your current gears with helical gears? It's quieter and more efficient.
Note: The angle of the teeth will be 20 degrees, assuming the manufacturer has used this standard.
Attachments
SpurGears_for CAM_A.JPG
SpurGears_for CAM_A.JPG (569 KiB) Viewed 833 times
SpurGears_for CAM_B.JPG
SpurGears_for CAM_B.JPG (571.14 KiB) Viewed 833 times

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jbalat   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Feb 17 2021 6:01pm

This place has some really good picture
https://www.emotoer.com/tsdz-main-gear/

I have also contacted the supplier to see if they can share anything but hope to pull mine apart on the weekend
JB
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Wapous » Feb 17 2021 7:19pm

jbalat wrote:
Feb 17 2021 6:01pm
This place has some really good picture
https://www.emotoer.com/tsdz-main-gear/

I have also contacted the supplier to see if they can share anything but hope to pull mine apart on the weekend
JB
Yes these are fine pictures. Knowing the one-way bearing diameter (62mm exactly) I will try to do the job this way.
I will let you know before the weekend. This is interpolation method with Solidworks but sometime we have problems with lens distortion. To make sure, I will ask you to measure the major diameters for the main gear and the pinion.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Wapous » Feb 17 2021 10:14pm

I did draw the main gear from the picture. It must be OK.
But just to be sure can you print at scale 1X and check with the main gear in place. Cut de 62mm bearing hole and mount the sheet over the main gear. Or remove the main gear and drop it on the printed gear drawing.
If all look OK I will resend the Bakelite gear and the modified main gear drawings.




https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Wapous » Feb 17 2021 10:20pm

Interesting to look at this regarding 3D printer material.
Attachments
Tensile-Strength-Chart-1024x566.jpg
Tensile-Strength-Chart-1024x566.jpg (42.08 KiB) Viewed 806 times

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jbalat   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Feb 17 2021 10:32pm

We have peek and ULTEM too but I think nylon is best since it will give some before it fractures since it’s not as brittle

On the plus side I found bearing CSK30PP is the same sprag clutch but also has an external key way which we can use to lock into the plastic gear !!! :bigthumb:
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Tech talk TSDZ2 Opensource firmware https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &start=150
Opensource TSDZ2 Wiki https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... _wiki/wiki

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Feb 17 2021 10:38pm

I have a spare helical main gear and spur at home. I can measure tonight if that helps?

Jbalat you are welcome to have them no charge if you want to try re noise reduction. I bought when in NZ thinking a had straight cut and then opened her up ... the deal is you get to replace my spag bearing including pressing in and out if it ever goes. Let me know


Wapous wrote:
Feb 17 2021 7:19pm
jbalat wrote:
Feb 17 2021 6:01pm
This place has some really good picture
https://www.emotoer.com/tsdz-main-gear/

I have also contacted the supplier to see if they can share anything but hope to pull mine apart on the weekend
JB
Yes these are fine pictures. Knowing the one-way bearing diameter (62mm exactly) I will try to do the job this way.
I will let you know before the weekend. This is interpolation method with Solidworks but sometime we have problems with lens distortion. To make sure, I will ask you to measure the major diameters for the main gear and the pinion.

Waynemarlow   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Feb 18 2021 6:55am

jbalat wrote:
Feb 17 2021 10:32pm
We have peek and ULTEM too but I think nylon is best since it will give some before it fractures since it’s not as brittle

On the plus side I found bearing CSK30PP is the same sprag clutch but also has an external key way which we can use to lock into the plastic gear !!! :bigthumb:
I've attached a pdf of the main gear in cross cut to have a look at, I can redo it in another format with some sort of measurements to guide, if you want to drop it straight into a CAD.
Attachments
Maingear.pdf
(251.99 KiB) Downloaded 19 times

devboy-greg   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by devboy-greg » Feb 18 2021 7:40am

A while back I 3d printed a plastic main gear (helical) for the same reasons as you have mentioned in this thread, plus also trying to save weight.

The design was created in Fusion 360. Step file attached, I can’t vouch for it’s accuracy as I’m no engineer.
TSDZ2-Main-Gear.png
TSDZ2-Main-Gear.png (105.75 KiB) Viewed 747 times
The print was for testing only and had no sprag clutch, I just removed the pedals and tested in walk mode. It worked fine with the back wheel off the ground, it disintegrated in seconds as soon as the rear wheel was placed on the ground, way too much torque for PLA to handle with only minor resistance.

I gave up at that point as I realised it would take an expensive printable material to deal with the amount of torque good old steel can handle.
Attachments
TSDZ2 Main Gear.stl.zip
(1.45 MiB) Downloaded 8 times

casainho   100 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Feb 18 2021 7:55am

devboy-greg wrote:
Feb 18 2021 7:40am
A while back I 3d printed a plastic main gear (helical) for the same reasons as you have mentioned in this thread, plus also trying to save weight.

The design was created in Fusion 360. Step file attached, I can’t vouch for it’s accuracy as I’m no engineer.

TSDZ2-Main-Gear.png

The print was for testing only and had no sprag clutch, I just removed the pedals and tested in walk mode. It worked fine with the back wheel off the ground, it disintegrated in seconds as soon as the rear wheel was placed on the ground, way too much torque for PLA to handle with only minor resistance.

I gave up at that point as I realised it would take an expensive printable material to deal with the amount of torque good old steel can handle.
Great value, thanks for sharing!!
- EBike wireless standard: wireless motor, wireless cycling GPS display Garmin Edge and wireless remote with wireless brake sensor
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless EBike standard ANT+ and Bluetooth, TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

Please consider a donation to help developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

frenchie   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by frenchie » Feb 18 2021 8:00am

anyone ridden what I'd call 'recent batch' of lightweight ebikes? ie sub 15kg or less than 33lbs in 'old money' :wink: with something like fazua or x35 ebikemotion or eg Specialized Turbo Vado SL......and how do they compare to the TSDZ2?
Thanks!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Wapous » Feb 18 2021 9:54am

jbalat wrote:
Feb 17 2021 10:32pm
We have peek and ULTEM too but I think nylon is best since it will give some before it fractures since it’s not as brittle

On the plus side I found bearing CSK30PP is the same sprag clutch but also has an external key way which we can use to lock into the plastic gear !!!
I found an old protective cover for the main gear and tried to fit a drawing to scale and found that the major diameter is too large. There is distortion on the reference image.
So I would need the actual dimensions.
As I understand it, it looks like you want to replace the entire main gear with a new 3D produced gear and mount the bearing in its center. This bearing is mounted press fit and exerts a great pressure around its periphery. Why not machine the current gear and mount a crown wheel as drawn before. So you could try different materials quickly and have a solid setup for your testing. Remember that the crankset is fixed on this gear.
So before redoing the gear calculations I will wait for the precise dimensions requested earlier. (Gear of the first version)

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jbalat   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Feb 18 2021 5:51pm

devboy-greg wrote:
Feb 18 2021 7:40am
I just removed the pedals and tested in walk mode. It worked fine with the back wheel off the ground, it disintegrated in seconds as soon as the rear wheel was placed on the ground, way too much torque for PLA to handle with only minor resistance.
Well done you are miles ahead of us !!
If the part fit in the motor then I'm betting your measurements were pretty good
Are you able to post a step file ?

Can you tell us how it initially failed, did a tooth break off ?
Did you print the PLA with 100% solid fill ?
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My build log here http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=55352
For some cool ebike talk join us on The Best ebike https://www.facebook.com/groups/193581737807033/
Tech talk TSDZ2 Opensource firmware https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &start=150
Opensource TSDZ2 Wiki https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... _wiki/wiki

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by devboy-greg » Feb 19 2021 5:24am

jbalat wrote:
Feb 18 2021 5:51pm

Are you able to post a step file ?

Can you tell us how it initially failed, did a tooth break off ?
Did you print the PLA with 100% solid fill ?
Sure no problem, step file attached. It was the teeth that failed even though they were 100% solid fill.

I was inspired to try the print by this chap on YouTube who was printing gears for his Atlas lathe in PLA, with good results, although the gears he printed have larger teeth and the gear ratios are less:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6Aq0d1070I

I was going to buy some nylon and print with that, but as the teeth are small along with the ratio and torque being high, there is the potential for slipping, therefore as other projects have taken priority I haven't tried it yet.
Attachments
TSDZ2 Main Gear.step.zip
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Manbeer   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Manbeer » Feb 19 2021 6:05pm

finally drank the kool aid and ordered one of these, i was waiting forever for things for other projects and have intended to try one. i realized after that i got the one with a vlcd5 and 6 pin, hopefully that wasn't a mistake

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jbalat » Feb 23 2021 7:02am

Manbeer wrote:
Feb 19 2021 6:05pm
...i got the one with a vlcd5 and 6 pin, hopefully that wasn't a mistake
its only if you want to add a temperature sensor that the wiring can get a bit tricky but can be done. Let us know how you go. Make sure it is all working properly and then you can think of upgrading to the opensource firmware for a nice performance boost.
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Tech talk TSDZ2 Opensource firmware https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &start=150
Opensource TSDZ2 Wiki https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... _wiki/wiki

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by beemac » Feb 24 2021 1:00pm

Just in case it helps anyone else - I bought a 104BCD spider for the TSDZ2 - and like most it came without a centre rubber seal. I didn't really want to rip off the old seal from the stock spider (and in any case it wasn't quite the right size).

I found that 40mm OD, 14mm ID EPDM rubber washers fit perfectly.

I bought two to try and they fit a treat:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2MM-THICK-BL ... 2570681544
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File_000 (2).jpeg (2.28 MiB) Viewed 388 times
I'll glue around the outer diameter - and grease the inner - hopefully all will be well! :)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dameri » Feb 25 2021 3:11am

Thanks for sharing :bigthumb:

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by LeftCoastNurd » Feb 25 2021 3:50am

what is the chain like using that adapter, vs the stock 42T ?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by beemac » Feb 27 2021 5:17am

LeftCoastNurd wrote:
Feb 25 2021 3:50am
what is the chain like using that adapter, vs the stock 42T ?
Not sure yet - trying to find a decent alloy fsr frame to build up with this my spare motor. Am hoping it will be ok with the chainring on the inside to improve chainline but might rub on the case in lower gears I think. Will be matched with m5100 cassette 11-51T - so should go up the hills ok :)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Feb 27 2021 6:12am

You can use the later style adaptors which have a proper seal rather than a rubber washer. We think it’s at this point that we get the majority of the problems with water ingress along the crank and into the motor as the crank flex’s quite a bit as the bearing is set quite a way into the motor.

We now fit a fully sealed bearing into the chain ring carrier where the seal sits. It has two purposes, to strengthen the crank up as it transfers loading on the crank to the large sprag bearing without the long leverage that normally is there and accounts for some of the breakages some report of the crank. Also by fitting a sealed bearing we stop a lot of the water getting through at that point. Works well.

You can buy 5 hole 110 bcd narrow wide chain rings down to 34T on EBay and thus don’t need the adaptor or if you have 104 chain rings about then the adaptors are as cheap as a chain ring. As to chain line, the offset moves out about 8mm but we have had no problems with the greater offset, it’s surprising how much a modern derailleur can push chains across.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jeff.page.rides » Feb 28 2021 10:23am

What is the bearing number that you are using?
THANKS

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by LeftCoastNurd » Feb 28 2021 10:19pm

beemac wrote:
Feb 27 2021 5:17am
LeftCoastNurd wrote:
Feb 25 2021 3:50am
what is the chain line using that adapter, vs the stock 42T ?
Not sure yet - trying to find a decent alloy fsr frame to build up with this my spare motor. Am hoping it will be ok with the chainring on the inside to improve chainline but might rub on the case in lower gears I think. Will be matched with m5100 cassette 11-51T - so should go up the hills ok :)

FSR mountain bikes are challenging, the suspension pivots are usually in the way of the TSDZ2's torque anchor, and the BBs are often way oversize compared with the classic 68mm.

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