KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Electric Motors and Controllers
atkforever   100 mW

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by atkforever » Mar 16 2021 5:24pm

Wow that's some accurate feedback.

Whats the purpose of the thick blue wire?
Do you recommend beefing UP the traces for my configuration? 18fet controller ; max AMP battery 50A, max motor phase 130A, 67V.

Iambuilderman   1 mW

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Iambuilderman » Mar 17 2021 1:34am

atkforever wrote:
Mar 16 2021 5:24pm
Wow that's some accurate feedback.

Whats the purpose of the thick blue wire?
Do you recommend beefing UP the traces for my configuration? 18fet controller ; max AMP battery 50A, max motor phase 130A, 67V.
The purpose of the thick blue wire is to beef up the positive (+) bus bar for the power supply even more, beyond the maximum space that is available on the normal location of the bus bar. You can only thicken that trace to the point where it starts to hit the case and can create a short cut. Also, it provides power to the very end of the trace, so that all mosfets have ‘access’ to an equal amount of volts and amps: the bus bar is fed from two sides now.

The thick brown wire at the upper side that runs along the mosfets has the same function, but in this case for the minus (-) bus bar. I was just thinking like following water flow and making sure all amps are balanced across the pcb.

In your case I would say beefing up should not strictly be necessary, because the 72v version of the 18 fet controller has the same traces and is already rated for 60 amps peak.

That being said, it is quite easy to just melt some more solder along the main bus bars and maybe also thicken the bar for the three phases. I would recommended to cool the mosfets with some soaking wet toilet paper (water ;) ) to make sure they don’t overheat. Use a high power solder iron (60 - 100 watt) to quickly melt the solder and then quickly cool again. And don’t go over the white lines on the side, otherwise you could risk hitting the metal casing when assembling the parts again.

Adding uprated 8 awg wires was a lot of work because of the limited space and the large amounts of heat and solder that you need to properly attach these. So I would not recommend changing the default power supply cables unless you really want to push the limits.

Hope this helps?

szkuba   10 mW

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by szkuba » Mar 17 2021 2:10am

[quote=Vbruun post_id=1624989
Pretty interested in this as I think my sensor is slowly failing as well. Could this pull Up voltage be changed by a simple voltage divider?
[/quote]

That i am not sure if voltage divider would help. Can you describe how are powering the T9? Are you disconnecting the battery with a connector or maybe a switch? Those small DC/DC converters are not really good in protecting against voltage spikes and that also could be the reason to kill the sensor.

atkforever   100 mW

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by atkforever » Mar 17 2021 5:00am

Yep but adding a second power feeding wire modifies the current flow direction on the mosfet bus and current density, hence my question. I havnt the knowledge to say if it has an impact on the performance or safety but it seems that you studied the thing a lot so it's probably fine.

Iambuilderman   1 mW

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Iambuilderman » Mar 17 2021 7:00am

Well I didn’t do any transient simulations or something like that. But I figured that as all phases have their own large capacitor, they all have access to the same instantaneous 60v anyway without any time delays. So feeding the bus bars from two sides should have no effect on the timings, only a positive effect on the local voltage drop. Of course the proof of the pudding is in the eating. So far these modified controllers seem to handle the 80/300 amps just fine and are extremely quiet in operation (much more quiet than my FOC MQCON / sabvoton 72150 for example).

atkforever   100 mW

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by atkforever » Mar 17 2021 7:13am

Funny; I'm also leaving sabvoton for KT ;)

Do you have more torque with rotor angle correction enabled (FOC) rather than pure sine?

Iambuilderman   1 mW

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Iambuilderman » Mar 17 2021 7:30am

szkuba wrote:
Mar 17 2021 2:10am
[quote=Vbruun post_id=1624989
Pretty interested in this as I think my sensor is slowly failing as well. Could this pull Up voltage be changed by a simple voltage divider?
That i am not sure if voltage divider would help. Can you describe how are powering the T9? Are you disconnecting the battery with a connector or maybe a switch? Those small DC/DC converters are not really good in protecting against voltage spikes and that also could be the reason to kill the sensor.
[/quote]

I was planning to install an erider torque sensor as well but reading this makes me hesitant. Is there a torque sensor that people have good experiences with in combination with the kt controllers? Is a Sempu T4 a better choice than the erider with respect to failing over time? Or am I understanding this issue the wrong way..? What is the best torque sensor to use with a modified kt controller on the X4 input?

Iambuilderman   1 mW

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Iambuilderman » Mar 17 2021 8:00am

atkforever wrote:
Mar 17 2021 7:13am
Funny; I'm also leaving sabvoton for KT ;)

Do you have more torque with rotor angle correction enabled (FOC) rather than pure sine?
Great to share experiences then!

I need to do much more testing and especially measuring with the different wave forms. I don’t know about the difference in torque yet (need to measure acceleration), but right know my choice was primarily based on sound. It did not feel slower yet but of course I need to measure. I will do that while measuring the performance difference of adding different types of ferrofluid to the dd motor as well. I am in direct contact with the manufacturer to do some in-depth testing of their ferrofluids. Hope to get a bunch of samples soon!

I do also use the sabvoton/MQCON in my other ebike; that one is a beast with the 130 amps and 350 phase amps that I set it to right now (I don’t dare go any higher with my 8 awg cables and poor 10p Samsung 29e 18650 cells..). But it was quite expensive with the Additional costs for a cycle analyst v3. The total bike weighs 60 kg (72v 29ah battery) so Is approaching a small motorcycle more or less.

So right now I’m trying to approach (or even exceed..) that performance by building a very lightweight carbon mtb with modified kt controller and 72v 5 ah lipo battery packs. With a 5 kW (rated) hub motor + ferrofluid that thing should become a beast as well ;)


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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Iambuilderman » Mar 17 2021 8:44am

I have several motors, all selected from AliExpress for minimal width (I want 7 speed gears as well) and maximum performance vs price ratio:

1. A 1500 watt no-brand 3T motor with ferrofluid: comes from a totAl package of motor + controller + wheel + accessories that many sellers like pasionebike sell. Great value motor, phase wires are quite thin (2.5 mm2?). Currently connected to the modified kt controller. Handles up to 80 amps before phase wires start to heat rather quickly. Easily hits 72 km/h with stock kt firmware.

2. A 3000 watt rated 3t motor from the seller Suringmax. Also filled with some ferrofluid. This one is connected to my sabvoton. I run it at 8000 watt max (130 Amp peak). I think it is quite similar to the mxus 3k motor. I think MQCON would rate these type of motors at 2000 watt. It has a temp sensor and a spare set of hall sensors + cable. I quite like it, although it was not perfectly balanced (little shake).

3. A no brand 48v motor rated by the factory at 2000 watt. This is my secret find on AliExpress. I think the factory and seller don’t know what they are selling. It looks the same as the 1500w no brand motor, except that it has 50 mm magnets (55mm casing), over 6mm2 phase wires and runs very fast at 72v (3t). So my own rating for this motor is 5 kW, based on its size and ability to shed heat compared to similarly sized motors. It is very basic, with 1 set of hall sensors, no temp sensor and a steel inner structure. But it has large magnets and lots of copper, so I am planning to slam some serious power through it. Of course also with ferrofluid added.

So in conclusion: a bit out of the box motors compared to the general public perhaps?
Last edited by Iambuilderman on Mar 19 2021 12:01am, edited 1 time in total.

Vbruun   100 W

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Vbruun » Mar 18 2021 2:07am

szkuba wrote:
Mar 17 2021 2:10am
[quote=Vbruun post_id=1624989
Pretty interested in this as I think my sensor is slowly failing as well. Could this pull Up voltage be changed by a simple voltage divider?
That i am not sure if voltage divider would help. Can you describe how are powering the T9? Are you disconnecting the battery with a connector or maybe a switch? Those small DC/DC converters are not really good in protecting against voltage spikes and that also could be the reason to kill the sensor.
[/quote]

I run it from the main battery switched by a mosfet that is turned on by the light output of the controller.

The voltage conversion is done by one of these https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3291055 ... 4c4dToEae3

Iambuilderman   1 mW

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Iambuilderman » Mar 19 2021 12:23am

Question (“Let’s talk about FETs”): how many peak battery volts have people successfully run their Toshiba TK150E09NE at (rated 85v dss)? I am wondering, because one of my first 18 fet KT controllers came with IRFB3206GPbF rated at 60V VDSs and ran fine for years at 58.8v with regen enabled. So without any margin for voltage spikes.

Currently I run my 18 fet with tk150e09ne at 58.8v max, which leaves a healthy margin of 25V for VDSs. But given the experience with the irfbs, these Toshiba’s might actually survive a lot higher voltage in practice?

If so, it might be enough to only change the electrolytic and potentially also Cbb capacitors for higher capacity and voltage ones to turn a modern iteration of the 18frt 48v kt controller into a 72v 18 fet one, saving a lot of time, effort and swearing on changing the mosfets as well? I might actually try it myself soon if I can gather the nerves...

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by sdobbie » Mar 21 2021 12:42pm

Can someone please explain to me the hall sensor angles shown and how I can set the proper values? The motor runs fine but will not start unless I pedal first. My motor specific angle is set so that there is no drag when I turn the wheel so I would like to set the hall sensor values.
I flashed in diagnostic mode and recorded the uint8_t_60deg_pwm_cycles[0] to 5 as stancecoke advised but I am not sure how to use the data.

With the motor at full speed I get 10,0, 8, 8, 0, 10

With the motor stopped I get
195,0, 144, 240, 0, 101
Screenshot_20210321-173821_BluOsec.jpg
Screenshot_20210321-173821_BluOsec.jpg (464.51 KiB) Viewed 384 times
Solder that shunt!

Tepa76   1 µW

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Tepa76 » Mar 26 2021 2:26am

Hi,

Just received Erider T9 torq sensor to be later added for my Kunteng 6fet controller. Because the rumours of quality issues and broken sensors i did following founding’s.

1. Cadence output has different topology than regular PAS sensor.
T9 Cad output is sourcing 4.1 volt at high state and grounded at low!
Kunteng has also sourcing input to 5v via internal pullup.. right? This might lead to issues? (how is this in Lishuis? pullup to 3.3v?)
This might be solved by removing pullup flag from input and also swich from falling to rising edge might be considered (not necessary).

I had also a parallel project where i use a ESP32 (3.3v) with Zwift game for deliver cad and torq... there i add a n-fet on that input and feed T9 cadence signal through it. Works but needed to change for rising for proper edge detection.

2. Issue and probably to the worst thing is these cheap buck converter modules!
Mine works decent at on desc.. getting only @20mV ripple out through it, but things go horrible after installed these on bike.
There is high level high frequency spikes that comes through it. I even try to improve this by adding a linear post regulation, but without success.. these spikes come through still.

Image

600mA (HT7463) https://www.ebay.de/itm/DC-DC-Buck-Step ... 2749.l2649
version is little better than
2A (MP4560) https://www.ebay.de/itm/2A-Mini-DC-DC-B ... 2749.l2649

600mA on left:

Image

This is something which varying on every installation depending in many scenarios..
My goal is to find better solution for harsh environment. Have anyone tried, Traco or similar converters?

Example this: https://www.tracopower.com/int/model/tec-2-4819wi

ps just found this one.. at least more caps and diodes on board.
https://www.aliexpress.com/i/3296598244 ... 7b4bpJJysc
https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps54 ... e.com%252F

br,
Tep76

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Vbruun » Mar 26 2021 4:08am

Tepa76 wrote:
Mar 26 2021 2:26am
Hi,

Just received Erider T9 torq sensor to be later added for my Kunteng 6fet controller. Because the rumours of quality issues and broken sensors i did following founding’s.

1. Cadence output has different topology than regular PAS sensor.
T9 Cad output is sourcing 4.1 volt at high state and grounded at low!
Kunteng has also sourcing input to 5v via internal pullup.. right? This might lead to issues? (how is this in Lishuis? pullup to 3.3v?)
This might be solved by removing pullup flag from input and also swich from falling to rising edge might be considered (not necessary).

I had also a parallel project where i use a ESP32 (3.3v) with Zwift game for deliver cad and torq... there i add a n-fet on that input and feed T9 cadence signal through it. Works but needed to change for rising for proper edge detection.

2. Issue and probably to the worst thing is these cheap buck converter modules!
Mine works decent at on desc.. getting only @20mV ripple out through it, but things go horrible after installed these on bike.
There is high level high frequency spikes that comes through it. I even try to improve this by adding a linear post regulation, but without success.. these spikes come through still.

Image

600mA (HT7463) https://www.ebay.de/itm/DC-DC-Buck-Step ... 2749.l2649
version is little better than
2A (MP4560) https://www.ebay.de/itm/2A-Mini-DC-DC-B ... 2749.l2649

600mA on left:

Image

This is something which varying on every installation depending in many scenarios..
My goal is to find better solution for harsh environment. Have anyone tried, Traco or similar converters?

Example this: https://www.tracopower.com/int/model/tec-2-4819wi

ps just found this one.. at least more caps and diodes on board.
https://www.aliexpress.com/i/3296598244 ... 7b4bpJJysc
https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps54 ... e.com%252F

br,
Tep76
Very interesting work you have done. I Think the final piece for this firmware would be to not have it fry the erider torque sensor as it is quite a nice sensor when it works.

As far as I can tell, the ripple current is still well within the specified voltage input for the erider (8-12v), so why do you think it still might be an issue?

Have you considered turn on/off voltage spikes in your work?

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Valopallo   100 W

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Valopallo » Mar 27 2021 5:57am

Troubleshooting help needed:

I changed hall sensors to my geared hub motor(52V battery/S06S controller). Last night I flashed S06S with OSEC and tried to find the right motor specific angle. I started the controller and the wheel started to spin on it's own without throttle. I tried different motor specific angle @ BluOSEC options increasing and decreasing in steps of 15 from the default 213. The wheel never stopped but the behavior changed with different parameters. I want to understand did the wheel spin because of the wrong motor specific angle parameter or some other parameter?

Then the motor made an awful sound and before I got to shut down the controller my battery blew a fuse. Changed the fuse and the battery is fine. Controller doesn't show any visual damage on pcb but I can feel that when I plug in the motor, the wheel has a resistance without power. I believe I blew a mosfet from the controller because without controller the wheel rotation and the phases are fine.

How to do the troubleshooting on board with a multimeter/blueterm before I connect the controller to the battery again? I have spare mosfets and other S06S components.

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by geofft » Mar 27 2021 6:48am

Valopallo wrote:
Mar 27 2021 5:57am
Troubleshooting help needed:

I changed hall sensors to my geared hub motor(52V battery/S06S controller). Last night I flashed S06S with OSEC and tried to find the right motor specific angle. I started the controller and the wheel started to spin on it's own without throttle. I tried different motor specific angle @ BluOSEC options increasing and decreasing in steps of 15 from the default 213. The wheel never stopped but the behavior changed with different parameters. I want to understand did the wheel spin because of the wrong motor specific angle parameter or some other parameter?

Then the motor made an awful sound and before I got to shut down the controller my battery blew a fuse. Changed the fuse and the battery is fine. Controller doesn't show any visual damage on pcb but I can feel that when I plug in the motor, the wheel has a resistance without power. I believe I blew a mosfet from the controller because without controller the wheel rotation and the phases are fine.

How to do the troubleshooting on board with a multimeter/blueterm before I connect the controller to the battery again? I have spare mosfets and other S06S components.
I managed to blow several mosfets during testing of the firmware, in every case the mosfet had gone full short D-S so was easy to locate with a multimeter in circuit. Usually both lowside and highside fets were damaged.

However, with shorted fets the fuse would instantly blow on reconnection of the battery to the controller - yours sounds like it isn't doing this, so your issue may be different. I would be inclined to do resistance checks of the fets in circuit and replace any that look different to the others in any significant way.

This is my rather simplistic method of testing, maybe you'll get some more 'in depth' suggestions.... :)
BBS02 V2 48v 750w, 12s lipo.
Q128H (36v 201rpm), KT36/48SVPR 6-fet, LCD3, 48v 12s lipo.

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Valopallo   100 W

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Valopallo » Mar 27 2021 7:58am

I tested the mosfets on board with mutlimeter and diode testing mode; positive lead to drain and negative lead to source. I found two mosfets had continuity between their drain and source so I changed those to the new ones. I connected the motor cable to check if the phases are still resisting the wheel with no power and there seems to be no resistance. That means the mosfets were bad and now they are good.

How to find the right motor specific angle so that I don't accidentally do this same thing again?

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by geofft » Mar 27 2021 9:11am

How to find the right motor specific angle so that I don't accidentally do this same thing again?
....stancecoke describes a method on page 170 of this thread.
BBS02 V2 48v 750w, 12s lipo.
Q128H (36v 201rpm), KT36/48SVPR 6-fet, LCD3, 48v 12s lipo.

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Vbruun » Mar 27 2021 3:17pm

It seems that it might be best to use the stancecoke approach at a modest voltage..

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Valopallo » Mar 28 2021 1:19am

Vbruun wrote:
Mar 27 2021 3:17pm
It seems that it might be best to use the stancecoke approach at a modest voltage..
Please explain what do you mean. I'm using full 14s(58.8V) battery to find the motor specific angle with S06S.
Does the parameter gear ratio = 100 poise a risk of some sort when finding out the right angle?

Also, how to make the throttle react optimally? What to look for BluOSEC or Blueterm?

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Vbruun » Mar 28 2021 1:45am

Valopallo wrote:
Mar 28 2021 1:19am
Vbruun wrote:
Mar 27 2021 3:17pm
It seems that it might be best to use the stancecoke approach at a modest voltage..
Please explain what do you mean. I'm using full 14s(58.8V) battery to find the motor specific angle with S06S.
Does the parameter gear ratio = 100 poise a risk of some sort when finding out the right angle?

Also, how to make the throttle react optimally? What to look for BluOSEC or Blueterm?
I just commented that because it seems that several people have blown fets while looking for the angle. Thought that lower voltage woul probably be safer.

For the throttle reaction, I think the settings are called kP and kI. The need to be a Lot lower than default. I have had good luck simply experimenting with the settings until I found some I liked.

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Valopallo » Mar 28 2021 4:04am

Vbruun wrote:
Mar 28 2021 1:45am
Valopallo wrote:
Mar 28 2021 1:19am
Vbruun wrote:
Mar 27 2021 3:17pm
It seems that it might be best to use the stancecoke approach at a modest voltage..
Please explain what do you mean. I'm using full 14s(58.8V) battery to find the motor specific angle with S06S.
Does the parameter gear ratio = 100 poise a risk of some sort when finding out the right angle?

Also, how to make the throttle react optimally? What to look for BluOSEC or Blueterm?
I just commented that because it seems that several people have blown fets while looking for the angle. Thought that lower voltage woul probably be safer.
That's probably true. I just blew 4 more :) Are there any other ways to find out motor specific angle that are not as risky as this one? Also at last test I think I found the best angle near 255, but there seems to be some kind of pulsing effect where motor speeds up gradually even the throttle is full open. What could cause this because I'm pretty sure this is what keeps my mosfets blowing right at the moment when I seem to find the optimal angle?

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stancecoke   100 kW

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by stancecoke » Mar 28 2021 4:17am

I strongly recomment, to make sure, that the motor runs properly with the original firmware first, to find the right hallsensor and phase wire combination. Then the motor will run with the default settings in the open source firmware. You can fine tune the angle afterwards but with maximum +/- 15 from the default setting.

If you can't do that, for what reason ever, I strongly recomment to use a lab power supply for testing, with a max amp setting of 3A e.g.

In the Lishui project I've implemented a self learning function, like many very cheap China-controllers like the Brainpower have. This makes the start for newbies much easiser :-)
Valopallo wrote:
Mar 28 2021 4:04am
but there seems to be some kind of pulsing effect where motor speeds up gradually even the throttle is full open.
This may be the speed limiting function. The speed oszillates with no load....

regards
stancecoke

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Vbruun » Mar 28 2021 4:36am

So for poor people, er can power the controller from the charger?

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