Welding down a torque arm

A place to discuss the repair, design, and customization of the bicycle itself, not the powertrain ( battery, controller, motor, etc ).
User avatar
amberwolf   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 32242
Joined: Aug 17 2009 6:43am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: Welding down a torque arm

Post by amberwolf » May 04 2021 12:22am

FWIW, with a clamping torque arm (that is thoroughly attached to the frame), you wouldn't need axle nuts/washers (except whatever is used to mate the axle shoulders to the frame).

RTLSHIP   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 469
Joined: Jul 24 2008 11:26am
Location: S. Florida

Re: Welding down a torque arm

Post by RTLSHIP » May 04 2021 6:20am

I think the culprit here is likely the regen. I may not need to weld anything. I want to do everything else I
mentioned (fix axle, wiring etc) and either use the small 18 amp controller or disconnect the regen on the Aotema stock. The small controller works great and doesn't have regen but is only good for 48v and is low amp rating. Here are a few more pics. How difficult is disconnecting regen on Aotema?
dropouts.JPG
cat included
dropouts.JPG (2.03 MiB) Viewed 156 times
steel fork dropouts.JPG
steel fork dropouts.JPG (1.95 MiB) Viewed 156 times
small vs stock controller.JPG
Campsolutions contrl vs modified stock controller
small vs stock controller.JPG (2.04 MiB) Viewed 156 times
5 mm steel..JPG
about 10 mm width, 5mm prongs
5 mm steel..JPG (1.93 MiB) Viewed 156 times
two Aotema Brushless & Sensorless Kits
1 Free Spirit 12 Speed

RTLSHIP   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 469
Joined: Jul 24 2008 11:26am
Location: S. Florida

Re: Welding down a torque arm

Post by RTLSHIP » May 04 2021 7:38am

amberwolf wrote:
May 04 2021 12:22am
FWIW, with a clamping torque arm (that is thoroughly attached to the frame), you wouldn't need axle nuts/washers (except whatever is used to mate the axle shoulders to the frame).
What's your view on the regen controller? As John CR and Grin Tech suggest : the axle goes to an fro and is fighting against the dropouts. Without regen, the axle will only go one way. So to have regen on a front wheel drive, you need a nearly perfect set up. Regen makes practically no sense anyways as it makes tiny trickle charges.
two Aotema Brushless & Sensorless Kits
1 Free Spirit 12 Speed

John in CR   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 15225
Joined: May 20 2008 12:58am
Location: Paradise

Re: Welding down a torque arm

Post by John in CR » May 04 2021 3:19pm

RTLSHIP wrote:
May 04 2021 7:38am
Regen makes practically no sense anyways as it makes tiny trickle charges.
I can't believe someone is still posting these kinds of anti-regen falsehoods in 2021.

-Regen adds range, it's like getting 5% or more of free battery.
-Reduces maintenance time and cost (I haven't changed a brake pad or fiddled with brake adjustment in years, and I'd use regen if it had no other benefits.
-Increases safety by giving you anti-lock braking, and keeps mechanical brakes fresh and cool for emergency stops and for much safer descents.

I can't believe you're talking about welding on the motor axle when the dropouts those forks could so easily be adapted to become clamping dropouts

RTLSHIP   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 469
Joined: Jul 24 2008 11:26am
Location: S. Florida

Re: Welding down a torque arm

Post by RTLSHIP » May 04 2021 5:26pm

John in CR wrote:
May 04 2021 3:19pm
RTLSHIP wrote:
May 04 2021 7:38am
Regen makes practically no sense anyways as it makes tiny trickle charges.
I can't believe someone is still posting these kinds of anti-regen falsehoods in 2021.

-Regen adds range, it's like getting 5% or more of free battery.
-Reduces maintenance time and cost (I haven't changed a brake pad or fiddled with brake adjustment in years, and I'd use regen if it had no other benefits.
-Increases safety by giving you anti-lock braking, and keeps mechanical brakes fresh and cool for emergency stops and for much safer descents.

I can't believe you're talking about welding on the motor axle when the dropouts those forks could so easily be adapted to become clamping dropouts
I have read that it can give 1.5 miles on 30 miles of riding. That ain't much when you consider that most people don't need to ride
that far. Further I have read that regen is not so good with lithium as it can heat up battery. Further, I'm repeating what you and grin tech have publish in refrence to spinouts with repect to regen. So maybe I used histrionics calling it tiny trickle charges.

Finally, what I'm talking about now is using a controller without regen as opposed to welding. You are the guy that believed
somebody back in 2011? But you can't believe I believe something?
two Aotema Brushless & Sensorless Kits
1 Free Spirit 12 Speed

RTLSHIP   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 469
Joined: Jul 24 2008 11:26am
Location: S. Florida

Re: Welding down a torque arm

Post by RTLSHIP » May 04 2021 5:28pm

RTLSHIP wrote:
May 04 2021 5:26pm
John in CR wrote:
May 04 2021 3:19pm
RTLSHIP wrote:
May 04 2021 7:38am
Regen makes practically no sense anyways as it makes tiny trickle charges.
I can't believe someone is still posting these kinds of anti-regen falsehoods in 2021.

-Regen adds range, it's like getting 5% or more of free battery.
-Reduces maintenance time and cost (I haven't changed a brake pad or fiddled with brake adjustment in years, and I'd use regen if it had no other benefits.
-Increases safety by giving you anti-lock braking, and keeps mechanical brakes fresh and cool for emergency stops and for much safer descents.

I can't believe you're talking about welding on the motor axle when the dropouts those forks could so easily be adapted to become clamping dropouts
I have read that it can give 1.5 miles on 30 miles of riding. That ain't much when you consider that most people don't need to ride
that far. Further I have read that regen is not so good with lithium as it can heat up battery. Further, I'm repeating what you and grin tech have publish in refrence to spinouts with repect to regen. So maybe I used histrionics calling it tiny trickle charges.

Finally, what I'm talking about now is using a controller without regen as opposed to welding. You are the guy that believed
somebody back in 2012? But you can't believe I believe something? You apparently believe I'm living in 2010 because my kit is such?

two Aotema Brushless & Sensorless Kits
1 Free Spirit 12 Speed

User avatar
E-HP   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2152
Joined: Nov 01 2018 9:20pm

Re: Welding down a torque arm

Post by E-HP » May 04 2021 8:46pm

Image

User avatar
Chalo   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 8633
Joined: Apr 29 2009 11:29pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: Welding down a torque arm

Post by Chalo » May 05 2021 12:58am

RTLSHIP wrote:
May 04 2021 6:20am
Here are a few more pics.
Dude. Those forks are janky AF. Would you use them as a wrench? No you would not. That makes them unsuitable for restraining axle torque.

In the USA, squashed-tube fork tips like that are common only on department store bikes from the 20th century. Is that what you're using?
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

RTLSHIP   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 469
Joined: Jul 24 2008 11:26am
Location: S. Florida

Re: Welding down a torque arm

Post by RTLSHIP » May 05 2021 4:18am

Chalo wrote:
May 05 2021 12:58am
RTLSHIP wrote:
May 04 2021 6:20am
Here are a few more pics.
Dude. Those forks are janky AF. Would you use them as a wrench? No you would not. That makes them unsuitable for restraining axle torque.

In the USA, squashed-tube fork tips like that are common only on department store bikes from the 20th century. Is that what you're using?
The forks are strong. They are Chromoly. The tips are solid 5 mm or 1/4" as you can see. No squashed tips. Yes the main body of the fork is tubular but that's common to every bike I've had. I can't imagine what a solid tubeless steel fork would weigh.
I got this bike practically free and brand new though it is a 1991. And the same designed forks have held down the other hub for several years without incident. I think this will work out fine if I go w/ nonregen controller and tie it down properly. I will not weld.
two Aotema Brushless & Sensorless Kits
1 Free Spirit 12 Speed

RTLSHIP   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 469
Joined: Jul 24 2008 11:26am
Location: S. Florida

Re: Welding down a torque arm

Post by RTLSHIP » May 05 2021 6:49am

In reality, buying a decent $1000. integrated bike will eliminate these problems. I attend to do this one day, but at this point I want to use the materials I have. I will eventually not fool with conversion kits.
two Aotema Brushless & Sensorless Kits
1 Free Spirit 12 Speed

LewTwo   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1259
Joined: Apr 08 2014 4:46pm
Location: Houston, Texas
Contact:

Re: Welding down a torque arm

Post by LewTwo » May 05 2021 8:12am

Chalo wrote:
May 05 2021 12:58am
Dude. Those forks are janky AF. Would you use them as a wrench? No you would not. That makes them unsuitable for restraining axle torque.

In the USA, squashed-tube fork tips like that are common only on department store bikes from the 20th century. Is that what you're using?
Well I am in 150% agreement with Chalo. Pressed steel forks are garbage ...
and that is coming from someone that runs front hub motors on aluminum forks.
The more I learn the more obvious the immensity of my ignorance becomes.
Weight Wennie E-Bike https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 3#p1173723
Shaft Drive Grocery Getter https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=90718
...and thanks to Justin!

User avatar
Chalo   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 8633
Joined: Apr 29 2009 11:29pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: Welding down a torque arm

Post by Chalo » May 05 2021 10:22am

RTLSHIP wrote:
May 05 2021 4:18am
The forks are strong. They are Chromoly. The tips are solid 5 mm or 1/4" as you can see. No squashed tips.
Well, either they're smashed into shape from the tube ends (like an old Huffy), or they're styled to look as if they were. I have never seen a chromoly fork with that treatment, but in principle chromoly can do all the same things that mild steel does, process-wise.

This is a more usual style of fork tip on a quality chromoly fork:
Screenshot_20210505-101444.png
Screenshot_20210505-101444.png (342.85 KiB) Viewed 77 times
I hope you can see how these are better shaped to resist torque from a flatted axle than the fork tips you have.
[/quote]
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

User avatar
Chalo   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 8633
Joined: Apr 29 2009 11:29pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: Welding down a torque arm

Post by Chalo » May 05 2021 10:28am

John in CR wrote:
May 04 2021 3:19pm
-Regen adds range, it's like getting 5% or more of free battery.
Using 5% or more additional battery is cheaper and easier for most folks than making and installing clamping dropouts. It's much less likely to end your ride, your bike, and/or your face than using regen braking without clamping dropouts.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

RTLSHIP   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 469
Joined: Jul 24 2008 11:26am
Location: S. Florida

Re: Welding down a torque arm

Post by RTLSHIP » May 05 2021 11:21am

Chalo wrote:
May 05 2021 10:22am
RTLSHIP wrote:
May 05 2021 4:18am
The forks are strong. They are Chromoly. The tips are solid 5 mm or 1/4" as you can see. No squashed tips.
Well, either they're smashed into shape from the tube ends (like an old Huffy), or they're styled to look as if they were. I have never seen a chromoly fork with that treatment, but in principle chromoly can do all the same things that mild steel does, process-wise.

This is a more usual style of fork tip on a quality chromoly fork:
Screenshot_20210505-101444.png

I hope you can see how these are better shaped to resist torque from a flatted axle than the fork tips you have.
[/quote] these forks were not crimped together if that's what you suggest. I did alter the appearance by filing to fit. Having read up on torque arms, I can now understand that I'm not the only incompetent one with this issue. Some have claimed that anything above 500 watts generates some smearing etc. Definitely as a 5 to 7 mile commuter, I don't need regen related torque.
Sooner or late I'll pony up and get an integrated rear wheel bike. It seems harder to let go or transition right now.
I do have forks similar in style (except for quick release dropouts) to your pic on a Mongoose Sycamore but that bike is for regular use only.
two Aotema Brushless & Sensorless Kits
1 Free Spirit 12 Speed

LewTwo   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1259
Joined: Apr 08 2014 4:46pm
Location: Houston, Texas
Contact:

Re: Welding down a torque arm

Post by LewTwo » May 05 2021 12:32pm

Chalo wrote:
May 05 2021 10:22am
Well, either they're smashed into shape from the tube ends (like an old Huffy), or they're styled to look as if they were. I have never seen a chromoly fork with that treatment, but in principle chromoly can do all the same things that mild steel does, process-wise.
I downloaded the pictures and enlarged them a bit. They are not pressed steel forks but the appearance is deceiving. Still a weak design IMHO. I would not rum 'em with out torque arms. If a rear wheel drops out on a bike then you have a wreck. If the front wheel drops out on a bicycle then you go head over handlebars and your face meets the road (been there, done that and had the bloody T-shirt and scars to prove it).
The more I learn the more obvious the immensity of my ignorance becomes.
Weight Wennie E-Bike https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 3#p1173723
Shaft Drive Grocery Getter https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=90718
...and thanks to Justin!

User avatar
E-HP   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2152
Joined: Nov 01 2018 9:20pm

Re: Welding down a torque arm

Post by E-HP » May 05 2021 2:43pm

RTLSHIP wrote:
May 05 2021 6:49am
In reality, buying a decent $1000. integrated bike will eliminate these problems.
Are you talking about an ebike?

RTLSHIP   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 469
Joined: Jul 24 2008 11:26am
Location: S. Florida

Re: Welding down a torque arm

Post by RTLSHIP » May 06 2021 5:26am

E-HP wrote:
May 05 2021 2:43pm
RTLSHIP wrote:
May 05 2021 6:49am
In reality, buying a decent $1000. integrated bike will eliminate these problems.
Are you talking about an ebike?
Yes, I want to get a rear wheel drive about 1000W. I'm assuming an integrated bike as an integrated torque system. I want something that will be compatible with my current battery packs such that battery packs can be alternated. Right now I just want to use what I have. I don't want to turn home into a bike barn, so I have to get rid of these kits/bikes if I'm going to replace them. That's the tougher part.
two Aotema Brushless & Sensorless Kits
1 Free Spirit 12 Speed

RTLSHIP   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 469
Joined: Jul 24 2008 11:26am
Location: S. Florida

Re: Welding down a torque arm

Post by RTLSHIP » May 06 2021 5:28am

RTLSHIP wrote:
May 06 2021 5:26am
E-HP wrote:
May 05 2021 2:43pm
RTLSHIP wrote:
May 05 2021 6:49am
In reality, buying a decent $1000. integrated bike will eliminate these problems.
Are you talking about an ebike?
Yes, I want to get a rear wheel drive about 1000W. Decent could be more than $1000. I'm assuming an integrated bike has an integrated torque system. and want to go rear wheel. I want something that will be compatible with my current battery packs such that battery packs can be alternated. Right now I just want to use what I have. I don't want to turn home into a bike barn, so I have to get rid of these 2 kits/bikes if I'm going to replace them. That's the tougher part.
two Aotema Brushless & Sensorless Kits
1 Free Spirit 12 Speed

Post Reply