C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

General Discussion about electric vehicles.
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Just_Ed   1 kW

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Sep 28 2021 7:50pm

From humble beginnings, it grows...

Image

...into the beauty before you.

Image

The red hose never arrived. But that I take as an omen to not use it.
I cancelled the order and decided to go back to my original idea (though more expensive).
Besides that, I was having a problem liking the sloppy look of the hoses.

Image

Today I got this far. A better look by far. IMHO

Image

Now to decide how to make the fuel blocks and how to route the tubing to them.
The tubing must have hose dampeners between the copper tubing and the fuel blocks.

Everyone knows that this beast will shack rattle and roar, RIGHT? :lol:

The mock-up fuel block (white PVC) is one idea that may work.
Other ideas are formulating.

Image

Brass fittings are not cheap. But I am feeling better about changing to copper/brass.
Much cleaner, and better organized.

And there is the 'BLING' factor.

Image
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by fechter » Sep 29 2021 12:57pm

You might want to spray them with clear paint to keep them from oxidizing. Looks great.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Sep 29 2021 5:00pm

fechter wrote:
Sep 29 2021 12:57pm
You might want to spray them with clear paint to keep them from oxidizing. Looks great.
Thanks for the tip. It is in the plan.

I'm working on the fuel blocks that will attach to the firewall. Pics later, but for now the tubing will end at 90 degrees down and then 90 degrees back to the fuel blocks. They will be attached about two inches below the windshield frame.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Sep 29 2021 5:04pm

fechter wrote:
Sep 29 2021 12:57pm
You might want to spray them with clear paint to keep them from oxidizing. Looks great.
Thanks for the tip. It is in the plan.

I'm working on the fuel blocks that will attach to the firewall. Pics later, but for now the tubing will end at 90 degrees down and then 90 degrees back to the fuel blocks. The fuel blocks will attach about two inches below the windshield frame. There will be vertical clear tubing connecting the upper and lower copper tubing.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Hillhater » Sep 29 2021 6:55pm

An idea for the future...
How about a “fake” blower on the top of that intake ?
A small electric motor could turn a “fake” drive pulley & belt set on the front. !
And you know you can get those fake V8 sound generators that follow throttle output.......
Nice big bass driver speaker hidden in the block ? :bigthumb:
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Sep 29 2021 7:20pm

Hillhater wrote:
Sep 29 2021 6:55pm
An idea for the future...
How about a “fake” blower on the top of that intake ?
A small electric motor could turn a “fake” drive pulley & belt set on the front. !
And you know you can get those fake V8 sound generators that follow throttle output.......
Nice big bass driver speaker hidden in the block ? :bigthumb:
Yup, that is a good idea. Phase two will be a roadster built on this chassis.
The blower idea may very well replace the 'six pack'.

Vroom like this...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYFFev7 ... 24&index=2
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Sep 29 2021 10:39pm

Mental block - fuel block

Finally settled on how I will transition from the carb copper tubing to the fuel block.
I'm using scrap copper tubing for this mock-up.

Image

Cut the block from a 1x1 square tube. Cut it long way to 1/2 " thickness
Welded ends on it and drilled appropriate holes for mounting the fittings and mounting screws.

Finish grinding/sanding yet to be done.

Image

Image

Image
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Hillhater » Sep 30 2021 8:31pm

Just_Ed wrote:
Sep 29 2021 7:20pm

Vroom like this...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYFFev7 ... 24&index=2
Perfect !
Now just get that soundtrack onto your phone,..add a healthy BT amp/ speaker to the rig,...and you are set to roll :bigthumb:
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Sep 30 2021 10:42pm

Well, guess what?

Remember that red hose that didn't arrive by the time it was estimated too?
The same hose that I canceled 3 days ago. Well, it has shipped, and get this, --- it's going to arrive between Sept 23 and Sept 27th. 🙄
I may be wrong, but isn't today Sept 30th?

So I now have a red hose coming that I'm not going to use because they wouldn't cancel the order.
I don't usually leave feedback, but in this case, I just might. Grrrr.

Anyway, as the world turns...right?

On the bright side, the wife and I got our COVID booster shot today.
Called late this morning and got an appointment for 3 pm.

No side effects at all for either of us.
So we are much more relaxed because of it.

Ok, back to the business of building a hot rod.

The second fuel block was completed this morning. And the remaining copper tubing was cut and bent to exacting specifications.
Here the first of two blocks are connected. Too tight to secure to the firewall just yet.

Image

Bought some clear tubing to replace the red tube that I canceled but will be receiving anyway. 😕
I actually like the clear better at this time, because it blends in with the tubing, and doesn't become the focal point. We'll have to see what the red tube looks like, if and when it does arrive.

Image

Still need to install the hose clamps.. Hopefully, the clear tubing will straighten out in time.

Image
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Oct 01 2021 8:22pm

Hey! Hillhater, how about something like this?

Image
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Oct 07 2021 9:55pm

Moving on to the really important things - like designing the cup holders.

Maybe a location for the switches as well. Decision pending on that.
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After numerous designs, I settled on this cantilever style.
The top will be a wood insert of a yet undecided style.
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My red hose finally arrived.

I was concerned that the red might overshadow the copper tubing.
So to my surprise, it doesn't look too bad.
I will leave it this way for a while. See if it grows on me.
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The red doesn't look as good as it does in real life.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Oct 13 2021 10:50am

I have a question regarding motor RPM.
I'm feeling really stupid at this point in my build, but I have to ask this.

I am using a foot throttle (potentiometer?) like the one in the link.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/224078457715?c ... l8QAvD_BwE

My understanding of how this works is, the more you push on the pedal, the faster/slower the motor goes.

This really is a 'DOH' statement I know. I guess I need assurance that my brain cells are in proper working order.

That said it is really changing the RPM's therefore exact gearing isn't important unless you need to govern the vehicle speed to not exceed a maximum...right?
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by fechter » Oct 13 2021 3:03pm

It depends on the controller. Most inexpensive controllers will have a "speed command" where the motor speed is a direct function of the throttle setting. With the wheel off the ground or chain removed, the motor RPM should be directly proportional to the throttle. When starting out from a dead stop or climbing a steep hill, the controller may reach it's current limit and internally reduce the throttle to keep it from going over. Under these conditions, the RPM will be less.

Some controllers offer "torque command" where the motor tries to go as fast as it can for a given current and the throttle changes the current limit. This more closely resembles the behavior of a gas engine. I doubt your controllers have this feature.

The maximum RPM you get at full throttle will depend on the battery voltage and you won't go over that. It can be less under load.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Oct 13 2021 6:02pm

fechter wrote:
Oct 13 2021 3:03pm
With the wheel off the ground or chain removed, the motor RPM should be directly proportional to the throttle.
Thanks, fechter

That is what is happening with my setup. If my setup was direct drive, (gear ratio 1:1) then the only thing controlling maximum ground speed, is through the use of the throttle. Up to the battery voltage.

I ask because I'm following someone else's build with a garden tractor/mower differential @ 13.5:1.
He is trying to figure gearing from a 4500 rpm (reducing to 2000 rpm) motor same as mine.
I just thought the throttle/controller would be determining his max ground speed. A lot of arithmetic has been battered around using the 13.5:1 as a baseline start point, to arrive at his desired speed of 20 mph.

He has made me think that maybe I didn't need to go the jackshaft route. But I must stay at or below 25 mph to be legal for a NEV in Calif.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by ZeroEm » Oct 13 2021 6:54pm

Just remember gearing it down gives you more torque. It's much better to have the motor to run out of RPM at top speed, easer to drive. If it can go 40 and you drive around at 15 mph then your dogging your motor and harder to control speed.

Should jack up the back and see how fast your wheels turn. (unloaded) Then 80% should be close to top speed.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Oct 13 2021 7:37pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Oct 13 2021 6:54pm
Just remember gearing it down gives you more torque. It's much better to have the motor to run out of RPM at top speed, easer to drive. If it can go 40 and you drive around at 15 mph then your dogging your motor and harder to control speed.

Should jack up the back and see how fast your wheels turn. (unloaded) Then 80% should be close to top speed.
I don't know that I have that capability. I have run it full speed while up on jacks, but have no way to verify what speed that is generating, relative to driving.

The calculator I'm using says it's 24.11 mph. Using these variables 4500, 9, 24,11,54,23.5 in the order.

https://electricscooterparts.com/motor- ... ratio.html
Last edited by Just_Ed on Oct 13 2021 7:44pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by ZeroEm » Oct 13 2021 7:41pm

Don't let me get you hurt. :shock:

Did you get your speed-O hook up yet. Having second thoughts about your jack shaft setup? Are you just wanting to make it less complicated?
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Oct 13 2021 10:19pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Oct 13 2021 7:41pm
Don't let me get you hurt. :shock:

Did you get your speed-O hook up yet. Having second thoughts about your jack shaft setup? Are you just wanting to make it less complicated?
I downloaded a GPS speedometer to my wife's iPhone, but it could never get a strong enough signal. So I scrapped that one. Looking for others that may perform better.

The only second thoughts are whether or not my setup is really necessary. I went with the jackshaft because the motor and components that went with the order, gears, chain, and controller, etc. meant that I needed to add a couple of gears to obtain the 25mph max speed I need to be N.E.V compliant in Calif.

Maybe in the future, I will explore going direct drive when I'm thinking about changing to belt drive.

Today's Progress

1/4" thick Plexiglas/Lexan is expensive. I happen to have a large piece that I have been hoarding for years.
It's large enough to cut for my windshield. Went online for ideas on how I should cut it. I've cut Plexiglas before but it has been a while. I really couldn't afford to mess this one up.

You can see a narrow, trial cut, laying on the ground.
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I settled on using my circular saw with a cement cutting blade.
Worked like a champ.
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For the first couple of cuts, I took thin slices. But after some experience, the last cut was done full 1/4" cut.
The cut came out quite smooth, requiring minimal additional filing/sanding on the edges.
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This plexiglass has been around and hasn't always been treated kindly. There is a fair amount of polishing to be done. If I can get the scratches out, then I will have saved myself big bucks for a new piece.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by ZeroEm » Oct 13 2021 10:52pm

plexiglass, should be able to polish out the scratches. Depends how deep, start with fine sand paper then work to the polish if needed.
Bought a sheet few years back made battery cases that went in to a bags to keep the sun light out. Don't remember how big it was $50 for what I bought. It's tough. Need to pull my head lights off the car and polish them. They clear coat after the polish to stop new scratches. The cheap clear only last for what couple of years then needs done again.

The gear setup should let you adjust power and speed. I do direct drives and to get the right speed it's wheel size, motor windings and voltage. I shoot for 28 mph that is the legal peddle assist speed. Like the motor to be able todo a few mph faster then set a speed limit so the lag is not to bad being maxed out. It's not really lag, the motor needs to slow down a bit to build torque.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by fechter » Oct 14 2021 8:07am

If you went direct drive from the motors to the wheels, it could probably go too fast (downhill), but you need the gearing to prevent overloading the motors. If the gearing is too tall, the motors will never get close to their no-load speed on flat ground and most likely overheat. You'd lose a lot of torque also, so acceleration would be poor and even the slightest hill would make it bog down.
Regardless of the gearing, you can use the throttle to keep the speed under 25mph. Ideally, you want to gear it so that it barely reaches the desired limit at full throttle. If you really want it to never go above a certain speed, there are ways to electronically limit it.

Too bad about the GPS phone app. I have a free one that works well for me. Just called speedometer, Version 1.9.10. GPS signal strength varies depending on the position of the satellites. If you have weak signal, you might try at a later time and see if it's better.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Oct 14 2021 9:07am

Thanks ZeroEm/fechter

It helps that you guys explain things that may at times seem obvious. The short trial runs have shown that my present gearing is working. I'm itching to take it out to try the mini (+/- 5%) hill next to my house.

Before I put it under that kind of load, I want/need to spend more time flat road testing at full speed, stop and go, turning, etc.
Going up isn't the worry so much as going down. Though I installed hydraulic brakes, I'm not sure they are adequate or whether they need more adjusting or bleeding. They are adjusted so the pads are just off from touching the rotors and when I press on the pedal there is very little braking action. They do slow me down but barely, so on a hill, ??????????.

At the present, I believe I have to build it so mechanically it can't exceed 25 mph. The N.E.V requirement. If and when I ever decide to try and register it that is. In any case, 25 mph is plenty for its intended use.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by ZeroEm » Oct 14 2021 11:30am

Most would like to option of adjusting the gearing so your ahead of them. There are calculators to figure out the gearing. You need to find out where you are at right now. Then figure out where you want to be.

Setting up motors seems simple and it is until you dig in deeper and want to optimize for what you want. Everyone wants to go far on a small battery with good torque for acceleration and high speeds. Most everything is a trade off.

I don't know as much as fechter or most of the others who have been doing this for decades. It's taking some time to figure out what setup is good for me.

The worst enemy is speed. Most want more than they really need or even use. You want your average riding speed to be above 50% of your motors setup speed. When you drop your top speed by gearing, wheel size or motor winding without changing anything else you exchange that speed for torque. You also get the benefit of lower watts per mile/hour "wh".

You ware wanting to do parades you may not need/want must more speed than the fastest one. You may want more speed to get there or some other reason. People spend 90% of there time not even close to top speed. I'm one of them and my future builds will be a little slower than what I have now.

I would stick with your setup unless you all the chains and sprockets are just to much work. Hub motors are simple but limited. They are low maintenance as long as you don't get them hot.

We are never done with our builds. I have decided to build another and not try to balance the two different goals.

Need to get you a speed O meter, could start out with something cheap that just works until you find that perfect one that matches your Art.
by Just_Ed » Oct 14 2021 9:07am

Thanks ZeroEm/fechter

It helps that you guys explain things that may at times seem obvious. The short trial runs have shown that my present gearing is working. I'm itching to take it out to try the mini (+/- 5%) hill next to my house.

Before I put it under that kind of load, I want/need to spend more time flat road testing at full speed, stop and go, turning, etc.
Going up isn't the worry so much as going down. Though I installed hydraulic brakes, I'm not sure they are adequate or whether they need more adjusting or bleeding. They are adjusted so the pads are just off from touching the rotors and when I press on the pedal there is very little braking action. They do slow me down but barely, so on a hill, ??????????.

At the present, I believe I have to build it so mechanically it can't exceed 25 mph. The N.E.V requirement. If and when I ever decide to try and register it that is. In any case, 25 mph is plenty for its intended use.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Oct 15 2021 7:30pm

Windshield Progress

Started the day making six 'L' brackets. Four for the sides and two for the bottom.
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Drilled them for 1/4" threaded rod studs and cut threads in them.
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Welded the threaded rod studs in place. The nut is there just to torque tight for welding.
Done this so the brackets will have a clean appearance from the front when finished.
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Studs welded in, fronts ground smooth, and brackets welded to frame.
Windshield installed
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Rearview of studs, prior to cutting to length.
A rear cover plate will be installed as well.
Finish 'fill' welding to be done later.
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A look at the semi-completed brackets and the scratches that I will have to work on later.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Oct 16 2021 11:17pm

Today was swap meet/flea market day.

There was a good vendor turnout. I do believe many of them get their goodies from the same source.

I don't search like many, who rummage through every box, every container.
My philosophy has always been, if I'm meant to have it, it will appear before me.

Today was such a day. First I scored a barely used hardwood cutting board, 18 x 18 x 1.5" thick.
Been wanting one to keep in our camper.
Got it for ... Five bucks
Some are around the $50.00 range. Priced one similar at over $100.
Got home sanded down the few cut marks and it is like new again. Just need to put food-grade oil on it.

Next, I spotted a piece of plexiglass about the size of the one I'm using in the StreetRunner.
It looks like many you may have seen in the stores for COVID barriers.
I measured it and it will be perfect as a replacement for the scratched version.
Got it for Five bucks.

And the best for last, some bling for the hot rod.
I thought I was going to make my own, so this is a nice find...
You guessed it, Five bucks.
DSCN5181.JPG
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Today's Fabrication Progress

I reshaped the brackets to something a little more stylish.
Also, cut out matching backing plates and cut the studs down to size.
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Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Oct 17 2021 9:45pm

And to top it all off..the windshield that is.
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This is how you air condition back in the day.
Brass lid supports work quite well for holding glass open.
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DIY hinges that are to the point for this conversation.
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