Hyundai shutting down internal combustion engineering department to make EV motors
- Thread starter neptronix
- Start date
Chalo
100 TW
Resource blowing!
We have a fleeting chance to change what cars are like for the much better, but 'tards are doing the opposite. An electrically powered 4000 pound pod stuffed with rare materials and gigawatt-hours of squandered energy is approximately the same size disaster as one that runs on deatholeum.
We have a fleeting chance to change what cars are like for the much better, but 'tards are doing the opposite. An electrically powered 4000 pound pod stuffed with rare materials and gigawatt-hours of squandered energy is approximately the same size disaster as one that runs on deatholeum.
Hillhater
100 TW
I suspect a fair bit of “journalistic licence” going on there..
The 12,000 employees refers to the total Hyundai R&D center,..the engine development team is only one part of that .
Then there is this,.
.
So, it is not 12,000 employees being redirected, ....it is just “some” from one team within that R&D group. !
The 12,000 employees refers to the total Hyundai R&D center,..the engine development team is only one part of that .
Then there is this,.
.
Note that it is just the “Researchers” that are moving,.. leaving others to continue development.?
So, it is not 12,000 employees being redirected, ....it is just “some” from one team within that R&D group. !
j bjork
100 kW
I dont think it is something exclusive to hyundai, I am pretty sure that some of the newer developed Audi engines is expected to be the last one of that size. It is probably the same with many manufacturers. They dont really have a choice, do they?
How long are they even allowed to sell cars with ice engines, to 2030?
Even today's emissions demands is hard to fulfill, and it is not getting easier. So trying to launch new ice engines is probably not much use.
How long are they even allowed to sell cars with ice engines, to 2030?
Even today's emissions demands is hard to fulfill, and it is not getting easier. So trying to launch new ice engines is probably not much use.
True, it's a low bar to slide under because it's very obvious that we only have very high hanging fruit to pick with the ICE. No number of very expensive experiments by large automakers have churned out anything other than small incremental improvements.
ICE is a dead end technology as far as i'm concerned, not just because of regulations, but also because once we solve the battery density problem, electrics will eventually begin to eclipse ICE due to the technological advantage.
I like seeing that a huge automaker's looking to jump ship a bit earlier than the others.
ICE is a dead end technology as far as i'm concerned, not just because of regulations, but also because once we solve the battery density problem, electrics will eventually begin to eclipse ICE due to the technological advantage.
I like seeing that a huge automaker's looking to jump ship a bit earlier than the others.
Hillhater
100 TW
Hmmm? ..fuel consumption , and hence emissions, has dropped dramatically in recent years. 5-10 mpg was not unusual but now 30-50 mpg is possible for those that care enough to choose suitable vehicles.neptronix said:
The Hybrid ( Prius, Lexus, etc) practically halved fuel use in those vehicles by combining ICE with EV tech whilst avoiding large , heavy, expensive batteries , recharging concerns,and, range limitations of full BEVs.
If emissions were a real concern, authorities could have encouraged the use of LPG or CNG in ICEs, which would again dramatically reduce emissions overnight with a straightforward conversion .....but the reality is , they actually prevented that advance !?
There is also the very real potential for using Hydrogen to fuel heavy (diesel) powered vehicles,....but that is constrained by the logistics of Hydrogen availability, cost, and distribution networks.
I am all for EV technology when the costs are realistic but despite all the media hype, the reality is there will be ICE vehicles around for many years yet....long past our lifetimes...
And it is not just a battery cost or energy density issue,...it is a whole new battery technology that is needed to be viable.
Just as there is a finite supply of oil, so is there a finite resource of many of the materials required to produce current tech batteries and electric machines .
JackFlorey
100 kW
Yep. And PHEV's do that to an even greater degree. Small batteries and hundreds of (effective) miles per gallon. Those will be a good stopgap for the next ten years or so.Hillhater said:
?? They did. Around here most buses and garbage trucks are CNG, and there are a dozen or so CNG stations to support people who buy CNG cars.
That would be a great solution if we had any hydrogen.
And far beyond that. I mean, there are still horses.
Nope. The batteries we have right now work just fine. Sure, we could make them cheaper and figure out better reuse/recycling systems for them. But we don't need any new advances.
Keep in mind that Tesla is transitioning to LFP from lithium-ion because LFP has advanced to the point where they are viable alternatives. So now we have two options that work well for EV's.
Yep. Big difference is - once you burn oil it's gone. You can reuse battery materials indefinitely.
Hillhater
100 TW
Yet to be developed commercially,...and at what cost to the “recycled” battery.
We have hardly scratched the surface on potential battery requirements, and already there have been concerns over the resources required. Whilst the Battery demand continues to increase, so will the demand for raw materials to make them.
If we ever get near a full EV fleet , ..let alone all those Utility scale Batteries...that will be several thousand times the current material requirements IN USE, before you can even consider recycling volumes.
So no, i do not think there is enough Lithium, Nickel, Cobalt, etc ..or even Copper,..to satisfy a universal Electrification program.
There are many things we “could” reclaim and recycle , but it is not done because of the costs, energy, and resources required to do so. Glass bottles, plastics, tyres, etc are typical.
Hillhater
100 TW
We (Australia) used to have similar fleets of LPG fueled busses and most taxis, even some model cars could be bought as “Dual Fuel” ( petrol/LPG) and subsidies were available for anyone who wanted an aftermarket LPG conversion on an existing vehicle. Most Service stations has an LPG pump.
BUT..Authorities started trade deals with foreign nations for liquid gas exports and pushed the cost of LPG up, such that it was no longer an economic fuel option compared to petrol or diesel,..so the Taxis all went to petrol hybrid , and the busses we shamed into being replaced with EV versions,..or back to diesel !
And Service stations have been removing LPG pumps due to lack of demand !
Oh, and CNG, ...our brilliant leaders decided it should not be permitted for domestic consumption ??
( despite the fact that we practically float on natural reserviours of the stuff.)
Hillhater
100 TW
There is plenty of hydrogen, and we have the technologies to produce it various ways.
The problem is still H2 storage and distribution in volume
I know many companies have tried and failed to develop a H2 fueled ICE, but others believe it is practical and hence avoid the complication of fuel cells batteries, motors, etc..just an adaptation of proven technology with near zero emissions.
New light duty vehicles will be required to convert in a few decades time natural gas used to be a waste by product and still is when it cant be easily transported and burnt off. If the car companies going the way of the Tesla model of buyer not being able to fix their own vehicles will have problems.
This guy got what he wanted with 1.000.000 views I suspect it was parted out then blown up the batteries alone are worth lots motor actuators ecu's why lose money aiming for viral video.
[youtube]DG9Izqp6WWU[/youtube]
This guy got what he wanted with 1.000.000 views I suspect it was parted out then blown up the batteries alone are worth lots motor actuators ecu's why lose money aiming for viral video.
[youtube]DG9Izqp6WWU[/youtube]
jonescg
100 MW
Hillhater said:
So, I've been recycling LiPo cells in my shed. I'm recovering 99% pure cobalt sulfate which is used by the Future Battery Industries CRC to manufacture advanced cathodes and assess their potential.
https://fbicrc.com.au/
My acid leach process is here:
https://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?p=88057#p88057
25 kg of H2SO4 costs $56. That's enough to process about 15 kg of cathode, yielding about 10 kg of cobalt sulphate, currently fetching a price of about $50 a kg. I can do it in a day with some very basic equipment (especially safety glasses and gloves!). The CoSO4 is used to make hydroxides which are calcined and used to make new cathode material.
It's not about energy, because recycling always takes more energy. It's about limiting the amount of stuff we need to dig out of the ground. And if a bloke like me can do it in the shed, what's industry's excuse? There's 1.4 billion vehicles in the world, and we need halve this number. With the remaining vehicles powered by electricity. With resource recovery as a priority, we can minimise the amount of mining we'll still need to do to close the loop.
JackFlorey said:
I agreed with everything you said except this.
We need batteries that are denser, don't-self ignite during a number of failure conditions yesterday.
EV marketshare across the world is still in the low single digit percentages because the upfront cost of an EV is still very high, despite large tax subsidies to producers and also tax subsidies for consumers.
There are other limitations to ownership. Of the entire populace who lives in dense housing, there's generally no charging spot for them, and they rely on the local gas station. There's no functional equivalent of an EV gas station... except maybe a few Tesla supercharger stations here and there.
Long distance roadtrips are still a problem for most EV owners due to range and charging station availability.
In the next couple years, we'll start seeing all these factors improved on, and EV ownership will gradually become possible for more people as a result.
JackFlorey
100 kW
Those would indeed be nice - and are being worked on.neptronix said:
But currently, EV's catch on fire less often than gas-powered cars do. And EV ranges go up to 450 miles, which is more than enough to be competitive with gas cars. 12 currently available EV's have ranges >300 miles, which again is competitive. Tesla battery packs have lasted 300,000 miles without going below 70% capacity.
I absolutely agree that we need to keep improving batteries, specifically reusability, recyclability, energy density, cost, safety and lifetime. And fortunately all that is happening. But keep in mind that Tesla batteries now give such good ranges that Tesla is switching to LFP batteries on its cheaper cars to get the cost down; a range of "only" 280 miles is still pretty good. And you can get a Leaf for $28K.
We have hit a very important threshold - EV's now work about as well as gas cars. Improving the technology will make them considerably better than gas cars, and that will be the death knell of the gas powered car as the "standard" means of personal transport.
Addy
100 W
Lithium battery recycling is being doing commercially already:
[youtube=Bpe8HalVXFU]
[youtube=Bpe8HalVXFU]
JackFlorey
100 kW
Yep. Last AABC I was at had three different companies doing end to end recycling of EV batteries. It's out there; there's just no incentive to do it now.Addy said:
Hillhater
100 TW
No matter how effective or practical recycling batteries currently is, it does not help with the sheer total volume of materials required to satisfy the future potential demand for battery applications...not just vehicles, but utility storage, domestic storage etc. Recycling can only ever be a drop in the supply ocean.
And If we ever get those high volumes of seriously low cost batteries available , then that will make the economics of recycling even more difficult, because the raw materials will also be cheaper.
And If we ever get those high volumes of seriously low cost batteries available , then that will make the economics of recycling even more difficult, because the raw materials will also be cheaper.
JackFlorey said:
Ya, but when they burn, they really burn. I've seen low quality cells burn.. high quality cells.. all burning up roughly the same.
So cell quality isn't really the problem.
Look at Tesla's engineering, they've gone to the max on what you can do to improve safety and their cars still burn up sitting still - no previous crash or good reason why it burned.
Gas cars blowing up is usually due to a catastrophic defect that has a fix, or a MAJOR crash. Whereas as best as we can get with batteries is crossing our finger that 1 on out those 100,000 battery cells isn't likely to develop a short and melt the entire car.
Statistically speaking, electric cars do burn themselves down at a lower rate, but do so for much more difficult to solve reasons, and that sucks.
JackFlorey said:
LFP is nice because it tends to smoke instead of flame, but the density of those batteries.. ugh. Electric cars are already 1000lbs heavier than their gas predecessors. That's an attribute of electric cars that bugs me most. ( My ideal car is more along the lines of a Miata )
JackFlorey said:
I totally agree with that.
Chalo
100 TW
neptronix said:
Or a minor fuel system leak, or a gradual deterioration of high power electrical wiring.
Old Mercedes diesels are known for burning down in parking lots when they're not doing anything.
JackFlorey
100 kW
So do gas cars. 16 gallons of gas has a tremendous amount of chemical energy. My college roommate lost his first car to a fire, and there was almost nothing left other than the frame. Even the tires were gone.neptronix said:
They are already considerably safer (as you mentioned) - and while several companies have put some efforts into fire suppression, the entire field of study is still in its infancy. At AABC, no fewer than 20 talks were on fire avoidance/suppression/mitigation. There is a lot going on, and there is no doubt that they will become safer over time.
But meanwhile, 3.4% of all gas cars sold will end up on fire at some point in their life. .025% of EVs will, even with today's technology. So if avoidance of fire is your goal, EVs are the way to go.
https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs-electric-car-fires/
Oh, agreed. But as battery technology moves on, "cheaper" batteries become usable for cheaper cars. LFP energy density will continue to increase, just as li-ion density has.
Ianhill
1 MW
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2015
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Meanwhile a hyundai i30n with a hybrid turbo terrorise the local roads poping and banging away with antilag like its on a rally stage.
My phone must of heard me mention about it next thing I'm been advertised the cars specs on youtube carwow video, coincidence i dont think so the vids 2 years old and i dont watch his channel.
How far does the modern company go to target its audience not far enough as Zuckerberg see's it.
Most country's dont even need to electrify the car to cut emissions enough to save a disaster, rail networks have been under utilised to allow a freeway/highway/motorway revolution most cars are not needed.
Fast food deliverys by bike is stupid munched up box of food for the lazy, cook from home save carbon in the tons over a year just basic thought process instead lazy ways allowing companys to thrives thats not vitally needed its the human lazyness thats the problem no matter the energy source or choice of ride people are increasingly adding to the problem not caring for a real solution bit to carry on living blind pay for a tree etc to cover shit all.
My phone must of heard me mention about it next thing I'm been advertised the cars specs on youtube carwow video, coincidence i dont think so the vids 2 years old and i dont watch his channel.
How far does the modern company go to target its audience not far enough as Zuckerberg see's it.
Most country's dont even need to electrify the car to cut emissions enough to save a disaster, rail networks have been under utilised to allow a freeway/highway/motorway revolution most cars are not needed.
Fast food deliverys by bike is stupid munched up box of food for the lazy, cook from home save carbon in the tons over a year just basic thought process instead lazy ways allowing companys to thrives thats not vitally needed its the human lazyness thats the problem no matter the energy source or choice of ride people are increasingly adding to the problem not caring for a real solution bit to carry on living blind pay for a tree etc to cover shit all.
Hillhater
100 TW
That is idealistic thinking,..and ignoring reality.
Whilst humanity survived for thousands of years before cars were available, it is established fact that like the the introduction of the wheel, powered personal transport has pushed human societies to new levels of prosperity.
Sure there are many cars that are just “2nd use”. Or spares that could be eliminated at minimal inconvenience, but modern societies are based on communication and transportation and cannot function effectively without personal transport.
Outside cities and main residential areas, few people have realistic access to trains/ trams/subways/ or even busses !
Anyone who uses those public transport systems will tell you how undercapacity they are at critical times.
Then there are those millions who cannot access public transport locally and rely on private cars to function.
Chalo
100 TW
Hillhater said:
Fixed that for you.
Hillhater
100 TW
Chalo said:
Only in your mind....not in the real world .
