Do you use an fairing or partial fairing on your ebike, emoped or BSM?

[SafeDiscDancing]

This allows air to pass through a tunnel in the middle of an electric motorcycle.

Since it negates the pressure envelope they get great aerodynamic numbers.

https://www.trendhunter.com/trends/wmc250ev

For a bicycle this is much more limited because we do not like wide pedals. There is no more than about four inches of room between our legs.

But one still might think of doing a four inch by say eight inch tunnel running front to back.

Air pressures that are equalized by such a tunnel means the big wake is reduced and if you push some hot air into that tunnel you now have a jet engine.

The entire recumbent design is based on aerodynamic adaptation, but at the SEVERE loss of handling because all that weight so low to the ground means flicking a bike around is fighting physics all the time.

If you could continue with the handling of the upright bike but insert the tunnel for aerodynamic advantage you can still have a fun bike to ride.

But I must add the weight being spread AWAY from the center is bad for rotational inertia. So this motorcycle design must be very careful about not dropping the weight too low.

We need to realize the tires rotate an imaginary axis which exists near the true center of mass. The closer your physical geometry of steering matches the weight the better.

Which means in a design like this the battery ideally "should" wrap around the entire circumference of the tunnel.

[donn]

The entire recumbent design is based on aerodynamic adaptation, but at the SEVERE loss of handling because all that weight so low to the ground means flicking a bike around is fighting physics all the time.

Oh yeah, the aerodynamics.
But they're practically unrideable.
Also no one can see you on the road.

I must be missing a myth or two, commonly believed by people who've never ridden one.

I don't know, there must be a recumbent bicycle out there that suffers from a "SEVERE loss of handling", but it's surprising that it would exist. People don't ride recumbents and put up with terrible bicycling just for the aerodynamics - the advantage is rather modest at typical bicycle speeds. I have two, and the bicycling is the most fun I've had on two wheels. They're long, and even if they weren't it wouldn't be a good platform for stunt riding, but they're fine for normal riding. (And people have no excuse for not seeing me - my head is higher than many drivers'.)

Recumbents do start to show some aerodynamic pay-off when you put a motor on them, though, as the average speed goes up (wind resistance rises exponentially.) I typically show 11-13 Wh/mile on my direct drive setup, partly thanks to moderate speeds, but I think also a little better than I could expect on a conventional bicycle, and my recumbent isn't a particularly aerodynamic one. I suppose the same may apply to fairings - what makes no sense at common bicycle trip average speed, might make a lot more sense with motorized bicycles.

[SafeDiscDancing]

I don't know, there must be a recumbent bicycle out there that suffers from a "SEVERE loss of handling", but it's surprising that it would exist.

Handling is a relative thing.

In other words if your goal is to get from point A to point B without taking any risks then a cautious ride on a recumbent makes sense.

But I do all kinds of crazy stuff on my ebikes and drift the tires at serious speed.

The other day I was dropping down the biggest hill in my area which leads out into a sweeping right hand turn which in the summer I could hit at 45 mph or so with total confidence the tires would grip. But with winter and cold tires I could feel my front tire start to drift and fortunately with the right body language I was able to save it. Pretty scary, but great handling saved a crash.

So the recumbent has it's place. But you would never imagine doing Downhill Mountain Biking with them. (for example)

[Chalo]

I don't know, there must be a recumbent bicycle out there that suffers from a "SEVERE loss of handling", but it's surprising that it would exist.

Handling is a relative thing.

In other words if your goal is to get from point A to point B without taking any risks then a cautious ride on a recumbent makes sense.

But I do all kinds of crazy stuff on my ebikes and drift the tires at serious speed.

You don't have to do that to quickly run into the limitations of a recumbent. Debris in the bike lane that requires quick evasive action? U-turn on a multi-use trail? Quick portage up or down some stairs? Driver doling out a right cross? On a recumbent in these situations, you might as well be riding in a runaway shopping cart. The shopping cart is more likely to stay upright, though.

'Bents have one, and only one, advantage other than the usually unrealized potential for low aero drag. That is, you get to flop in a chair while you ride. Maybe one day that will be the compromise I have to make to keep riding. Until that time, I'll stick with bikes that work better.

[ebike4healthandfitness]

The entire recumbent design is based on aerodynamic adaptation, but at the SEVERE loss of handling because all that weight so low to the ground means flickin around is fighting physics all the time.

Check out how the Electrom handles. It is not o nly a recumbent, but a LWB recumbent.

https://youtu.be/E73FWv2EgaM (See 7:43 into video)

https://youtu.be/7QcXxJmJgl4 (notice how well it makes the harpin turns)

[Chalo]

Check out how the Electrom handles. It is not only a recumbent, but a LWB recumbent.

I can find you video of someone making unicycling look easy, too.



Some of us have direct experience riding LWB recumbents, and we know what they're like by actually trying them. Maybe you should accumulate some real world experience before you make declarations.

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Check out how the Electrom handles. It is not only a recumbent, but a LWB recumbent.

I can find you video of someone making unicycling look easy, too.



Some of us have direct experience riding LWB recumbents, and we know what they're like by actually trying them. Mybe you should accumulate some real world experience before you make declarations.

Let me guess this was one of the zero trail very low flop recumbents

Tell me Chalo which LWB recumbent(s) did you ride?

[Chalo]

Tell me Chalo which recumbent(s) did you ride?

The very first one I tried, back in the '80s, I was super excited to ride and predisposed to like. In less than a minute it horrified me instead. Infinity II LWB:



In the decades since then, I've tried Tour Easy and Vision LWB models, and BikeE, Trek, and Cannondale CLWB models. Not one of them behaves as well as the worst upright bikes I've ever ridden.

You can see for yourself if you only try them.

[calab]

So many questions like how would the wires be handles on a spinning wheel and how much weight added to the wheels and most importantly how much of a wind sail would those panels. A trailer would great or a sun shade for the rider.

Another function for fairings would be a place to mount a flexible solar panel.

Apparently this has even been done for bicycle wheels as well.

Notice the second to last picture claims 40W for the single wheel.

[E-HP]

Tell me Chalo which recumbent(s) did you ride?

The very first one I tried, back in the '80s, I was super excited to ride and predisposed to like. In less than a minute it horrified me instead. Infinity II LWB:



In the decades since then, I've tried Tour Easy and Vision LWB models, and BikeE, Trek, and Cannondale CLWB models. Not one of them behaves as well as the worst upright bikes I've ever ridden.

You can see for yourself if you only try them.

Looks like an early and scary adoption of drive-by-wire.

[tigcross]

You don't have to do that to quickly run into the limitations of a recumbent. Debris in the bike lane that requires quick evasive action? U-turn on a multi-use trail? Quick portage up or down some stairs? Driver doling out a right cross? On a recumbent in these situations, you might as well be riding in a runaway shopping cart. The shopping cart is more likely to stay upright, though.

'Bents have one, and only one, advantage other than the usually unrealized potential for low aero drag. That is, you get to flop in a chair while you ride. Maybe one day that will be the compromise I have to make to keep riding. Until that time, I'll stick with bikes that work better.

Chalo you keep pushing these old notions about recumbents. It would be akin to saying that ebikes are heavy, slow, short distance vehicles because of the lead-acid batteries: that might have been true 20 years ago but things have changed. It's time for you to find a new horse to flog.

Many modern recumbents are quite maneuverable, as demonstrated in the video below, and to write them off is a mistake. The recumbent position offers the e-bike community the opportunity to carry far more battery weight much lower to the ground than an upright bike and maneuverability need not be any more compromised than a conventional bike of the same weight.

As for the fairing/partial fairing debate, you are too focused on pure aerodynamics and ignore the other major advantages of a partial fairing, which are weather protection and somewhere to put a lot of cargo (in the tailbox). As most e-bikes are limited to ridiculously low top speeds by law, why would anyone put aerodynamics at the top of the priority list?

Your notion that a recumbent is a bad idea because you cannot carry it up stairs ignores the fact that many of the e-bikes on this forum are already too heavy to carry up stairs.

Let's get with the times please.

[SafeDiscDancing]

What initiates lean?

That's the core question.

When you wrap your head around that and realize the center of mass stays relatively constant and the tire initiates rotation then it makes sense.

Basically... in simplified terms... the mass is being twisted by a lever which has the tire contact patch as it's terminal point.

The higher the center of mass the MORE leverage and also the rate of rotational change is slower.

And this point is key because it feeds back into human response times... we need those milliseconds to react with body adjustments.

This is why those clown bicycles can put people up ten feet above the ground and still ride around just fine.

Way back in the beginning the bicycles had a big front wheel and were stable until you tried to brake then you flew over the front wheel.

MotoGP deals with the same problems that existed a hundred years ago... taller bikes wheelie or flip forward.

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Tell me Chalo which recumbent(s) did you ride?

The very first one I tried, back in the '80s, I was super excited to ride and predisposed to like. In less than a minute it horrified me instead. Infinity II LWB:

A few things standout looking at that bike.

1. Headtube angle is much steeper than the one seen on the Electrom. Forks looks to have a good amount of offset as well. Definitely looks to have less flop and much less trail than the Electrom.

2. Handlebars on the Infinity II are in a really awkward position. I have a hard time believing a person will have good fine motor control with the grips positioned in such an odd way. In contrast, the Electrom has a a great ergonomic positioning of it's grips!

3. The Infinity II cables (for steering) look really thin. I can see that hurting (due to stretch and play of the cable) the already bad situation with the very awkward handlebar positioning. The Electrom advertises a rather thick 3/16" cable which is going to dramatically reduce play and make the great handlebar position work even better.

4. The Infinity II frame looks a great deal more flexible than the Electrom's frame. This flexiness only makes the previous mentioned issues for Infinity Ii even worse and adds even more problems not even mentioned yet.

[tomjasz]

Laying down looking up at the maniacs in cages scares the crap out of me. 10 minutes and I was done. I ike looking eye to eye with most cage drivers on a flat foot frame sitting upright. Almost eye to eye with big SUV's and pickups.

[ebike4healthandfitness]

So many questions like how would the wires be handles on a spinning wheel and how much weight added to the wheels and most importantly how much of a wind sail would those panels. A trailer would great or a sun shade for the rider.

Another function for fairings would be a place to mount a flexible solar panel.

Apparently this has even been done for bicycle wheels as well.

Notice the second to last picture claims 40W for the single wheel.

The website for those solar wheels is motorwavegroup.com.

Here is a YouTube video of a bike using the wheels:

https://youtu.be/wVW9pYga7F4

And yeah crosswinds will be an issue, but perhaps this could be handled adequately by a steering damper?

[Stu Summer]

The entire recumbent design is based on aerodynamic adaptation, but at the SEVERE loss of handling because all that weight so low to the ground means flicking a bike around is fighting physics all the time.

Oh yeah, the aerodynamics.
But they're practically unrideable.
Also no one can see you on the road.

I must be missing a myth or two, commonly believed by people who've never ridden one.

I don't know, there must be a recumbent bicycle out there that suffers from a "SEVERE loss of handling", but it's surprising that it would exist. People don't ride recumbents and put up with terrible bicycling just for the aerodynamics - the advantage is rather modest at typical bicycle speeds. I have two, and the bicycling is the most fun I've had on two wheels. They're long, and even if they weren't it wouldn't be a good platform for stunt riding, but they're fine for normal riding. (And people have no excuse for not seeing me - my head is higher than many drivers'.)

Recumbents do start to show some aerodynamic pay-off when you put a motor on them, though, as the average speed goes up (wind resistance rises exponentially.) I typically show 11-13 Wh/mile on my direct drive setup, partly thanks to moderate speeds, but I think also a little better than I could expect on a conventional bicycle, and my recumbent isn't a particularly aerodynamic one. I suppose the same may apply to fairings - what makes no sense at common bicycle trip average speed, might make a lot more sense with motorized bicycles.

I ride two bikes with fairings. In snow and ice and for short rides I take my Haanjo CC bike with a large Zipper, a BBSHD and studded snow tires. The fairing keeps me warmer. I take off the fairing (and switch tires) in warm weather as it makes some noise. In better conditions and longer distances, l ride a Ryan Vanguard recumbent with a front MAC hub motor and a little Cyclone middrive. In the winter a fairing goes on. On both bikes the fairing make a small but noticeable distance and as Donn mentions, the difference is significant at motor speed. I average 20-25 mph.

[ebike4healthandfitness]

The entire recumbent design is based on aerodynamic adaptation, but at the SEVERE loss of handling because all that weight so low to the ground means flicking a bike around is fighting physics all the time.

Oh yeah, the aerodynamics.
But they're practically unrideable.
Also no one can see you on the road.

I must be missing a myth or two, commonly believed by people who've never ridden one.

I don't know, there must be a recumbent bicycle out there that suffers from a "SEVERE loss of handling", but it's surprising that it would exist. People don't ride recumbents and put up with terrible bicycling just for the aerodynamics - the advantage is rather modest at typical bicycle speeds. I have two, and the bicycling is the most fun I've had on two wheels. They're long, and even if they weren't it wouldn't be a good platform for stunt riding, but they're fine for normal riding. (And people have no excuse for not seeing me - my head is higher than many drivers'.)

Recumbents do start to show some aerodynamic pay-off when you put a motor on them, though, as the average speed goes up (wind resistance rises exponentially.) I typically show 11-13 Wh/mile on my direct drive setup, partly thanks to moderate speeds, but I think also a little better than I could expect on a conventional bicycle, and my recumbent isn't a particularly aerodynamic one. I suppose the same may apply to fairings - what makes no sense at common bicycle trip average speed, might make a lot more sense with motorized bicycles.

I ride two bikes with fairings. In snow and ice and for short rides I take my Haanjo CC bike with a large Zipper, a BBSHD and studded snow tires. The fairing keeps me warmer. I take off the fairing (and switch tires) in warm weather as it makes some noise. In better conditions and longer distances, l ride a Ryan Vanguard recumbent with a front MAC hub motor and a little Cyclone middrive. In the winter a fairing goes on. On both bikes the fairing make a small but noticeable distance and as Donn mentions, the difference is significant at motor speed. I average 20-25 mph.

Glad to hear even the large zipper fairing is giving your better mileage on your Diamondback Haanjo.

[Chalo]

So many questions like how would the wires be handles on a spinning wheel

The first e-bike I ever made had a PV array on both front wheel and frame, and I made a device called a "slip ring" to carry electricity from the wheel array to the charge controller.

The Achilles heel of any such setup is that any cells with a shadow on them bring down the performance of all the other cells in series, as if they were also shaded.

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Motorwave does sell a DIY kit for the Solar wheels:

http://www.motorwavegroup.com/Motorgym/solarbike.html

(Solar panels and slip rings sold separately as well)

No price on the website though.

[donn]

In better conditions and longer distances, l ride a Ryan Vanguard recumbent with a front MAC hub motor and a little Cyclone middrive.

That's my recumbent #1, an early Ryan Vanguard! The direct drive rear hub motor went there to start with, until I got another recumbent with rear suspension. Now I mostly ride that, but if I'm not in a hurry I may take the Ryan, just because it's a great ride.

My Ryan Vanguard looks just like Chalo's Infinity to the casual observer. It's about 30 years old; since then the line has changed hands and is now Longbikes in Colorado, and the Vanguard-ish model is about the same but has a little higher "bottom bracket". Probably the leading bicycle of this type, in terms of sales, is made by Linear.

Same straight, under seat handlebars, which I like well enough that I retrofitted the same on my new recumbent, removing the factory above seat steering. The linkage is a rod rather than wires, but I think I may be slightly envious - I assume the wires run closer to the frame than my rods.

The head tube angle is normal for a bicycle; the very shallow head tube angles commonly seen on above-seat steering designs are not because it's a good thing, but because that angle is dictated by the need for the handlebars to span that front to back distance. When designers give up on that and use a linkage rod or wires, the fork angle goes back to normal.

Frame flex is to some degree held out as an advantage that compensates for lack of suspension. I don't really buy that, myself - real suspension is much better - but anyway it isn't a noticeable issue on the Vanguard.

I don't have a lot of direct experience with this, but it's better info than you're going to get from someone looking at a picture and speculating about poorly understood design principles: Recumbents are designed and tested and they're typically going to be pretty rideable - for someone. Someone else who ends up sitting in a different place on the bicycle because of different leg length, or someone who is otherwise physically quite different from the test subjects, is likely to find it riding quite different.

The recumbent bicycle that really gives people trouble, is the type that puts the drive on the front wheel. Cruzbike is the most well known of these, and they're fairly popular - performance is quite good if you can handle it - but some people try and fail, just can't make it work. At best it doesn't seem to be a very relaxing riding experience. Interesting potential for an electric motor.

Anyway ... the fairing I have came with my Vanguard, and this is where under seat steering is at a little disadvantage - no place to mount stuff like a fairing, so it needs a couple standards mounted to the frame top tube, which is round. In practice that's full of problems, and it's more about that than the aero and protection issues.

[tigcross]

Anyway ... the fairing I have came with my Vanguard, and this is where under seat steering is at a little disadvantage - no place to mount stuff like a fairing, so it needs a couple standards mounted to the frame top tube, which is round. In practice that's full of problems, and it's more about that than the aero and protection issues.

Don you bring up an interesting point about Fairings, Recumbents and Under Seat Steering.
It is true that USS does not provide a convenient place to mount a simple Poly carbonate fairing, but for those willing to engineer a tilt-away fairing mounting solution, USS does make getting on and off of the bike far easier and less of a contortionists act.

I do believe that USS is more ergonomic, and when done properly, it provides a really crisp steering response. Some of the key features to a good USS setup:

1. the hand location should be placed so that the position is both comfortable and offers good control. On the Electrom I went with a vertical hand position, but on my old Varna SWB USS it was a horizontal position below the bum. I found that to be too much of a reach, and it did not offer a firm enough grip for the Electrom which, as a heavy bike, requires real control.

2. Whether using a control rod or wires, care has to be taken to eliminate steering slop and harmonic vibration that results in front-wheel shimmy. I'm using a pulley-to-pulley looped cable system that is rock solid.

One of the best aspects of adding a fairing to an electric recumbent is that it provides a place mount the display, which is often an issue on recumbents. It also provides a great place for mirrors, which are very important on a recumbent due to the difficulty looking over your shoulder.

[SafeDiscDancing]

What initiates lean?

That's the core question.

When you wrap your head around that and realize the center of mass stays relatively constant and the tire initiates rotation then it makes sense.

Basically... in simplified terms... the mass is being twisted by a lever which has the tire contact patch as it's terminal point.

The higher the center of mass the MORE leverage and also the rate of rotational change is slower.

I noticed this was SKIPPED entirely... no one saw the reality of this.

Lean demands rotation.

Rotation is determined by the length of the lever arm.

On a bicycle the force is the tire contact patch and the center of mass determines the length of the lever arm.

This should be really basic stuff.

[donn]

It is true that USS does not provide a convenient place to mount a simple Poly carbonate fairing, but for those willing to engineer a tilt-away fairing mounting solution, USS does make getting on and off of the bike far easier and less of a contortionists act.

I've given some thought to it, but only in the context of a better scaffold for my simple polycarbonate Zzipper fairing, and with no drilling into the frame. The getting on and off problem is nothing compared to (now you remind me) the problem of picking the bicycle up, when the front hand-hold is a frame member underneath a ca. 2 foot wide fairing.

on my old Varna SWB USS it was a horizontal position below the bum. I found that to be too much of a reach

SWB recumbents are often - almost always, I guess - designed with direct steering, which imposes some geometry compromises. LWB under-seat steering is necessarily linkage driven, so fewer compromises. Most of them have gone to bars that point up on the sides like yours (usually with the brake handles backwards, so your index finger is at the end of the lever), but the straight below seat bars on vintage recumbents like mine sure work for me.

I have a mirror strapped on my helmet, EVT.

[Cowardlyduck]

I have a solar panel in front of my BikeE CT which also acts as a fairing of sorts:

DSC_6643 (Medium).JPG (667.15 KiB) Viewed 209 times

Somewhat ironically, at least anecdotally, the energy efficiency gained from the panel being in-front and deflecting the wind is greater than what I typically gain from Solar charging while riding. Once stopped/parked the 40W panel with good orientation can get me a solid 15W of continuous charging through my crappy DC-DC converter setup.

I plan to do the same to another BikeE (AT) I've just finished converting also. Details here:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=57751&start=325#p1694224

I also plan on converting a Giant Revive and may do the same with a solar panel on that also. I've found the largest practical flexible panel I can fit is around 40-50W before it becomes too cumbersome.
It also generates a heck of a lot of passing by comments also. Even though the bike above has over 20000km riding around Canberra, I still get comments almost every time I ride it which is at least 3-4 times a week typically.

Cheers

[donn]

the 40W panel with good orientation can get me a solid 15W of continuous charging through my crappy DC-DC converter setup.

Do you think you're losing a lot in the conversion, or is the panel just not putting out much more than 15W?