New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

rcx194 said:
I agree. My bike feels much safer with brake sensors and they also allow me to quickly power down the bike by part pulling the lever.
Click to expand...

I also do this to power down the motor when changing gears without stopping pedaling. The power off and on of the motor is instantaneous and it feels like using the clutch on a motorbike !
The only downside of this technique is that you have to set up your brakes so that the sensor activates before actual braking happens. The stock brake levers/sensors require a little too much movement of the lever for my taste, but I wasn't able to tweak this.
 
rcx194 said:
beemac said:
jbalat said:
You don’t need brake sensors with a torque assist bike
Click to expand...

What's your rationale for that statement? If you don't want to strip your blue nylon gear regularly (or be really really careful about braking under power) then you absolutely do need brake sensors with the tsdz2.
Click to expand...

I agree. My bike feels much safer with brake sensors and they also allow me to quickly power down the bike by part pulling the lever.
Click to expand...

Do y'all drive a car or a real motorcycle? If so, does it have a power interlock with the brakes?

If not, how do you possibly manage it?
 
Waynemarlow said:
jbalat said:
Hey guys does anyone have a nuvinci hub ? I’m thinking of an n330 ?
Click to expand...
Let us know how you get on with the Nuvinci hub. A question, how are you proposing to get around the 12mm through pin on most modern frames, rather than the bolted 135mm old school hub of the Nuvinci and the problem of punctures ?
Click to expand...

It’s going on my 2009 norco so all good. Not sure how it will go on a bike with through axles though??
 
Chalo said:
rcx194 said:
beemac said:
jbalat said:
You don’t need brake sensors with a torque assist bike
Click to expand...

What's your rationale for that statement? If you don't want to strip your blue nylon gear regularly (or be really really careful about braking under power) then you absolutely do need brake sensors with the tsdz2.
Click to expand...

I agree. My bike feels much safer with brake sensors and they also allow me to quickly power down the bike by part pulling the lever.
Click to expand...

Do y'all drive a car or a real motorcycle? If so, does it have a power interlock with the brakes?

If not, how do you possibly manage it?
Click to expand...

Not sure if you guys are aware but none of the big brand torque sensing bikes like trek rail, Levo, etc have cut off brakes. If you choose to do so then that’s totally up to you. If you have a throttle then it’s a must. I agree though it’s a bad habit to brake under power.. all it needs is to be aware and you will eventually stop doing it.
 
jbalat said:
It’s going on my 2009 norco so all good. Not sure how it will go on a bike with through axles though??
Click to expand...
If its the N380 lets us know, interesting concept.
http://www.ebikeportal.com/nuvinci-n380-automatic-transmission-a-revolution-for-ebikes

You may not have read
https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/01/06/nuvinci-n380-the-bbs02-weve-got-the-biggest-balls-of-them-all/
 
jbalat said:
Not sure if you guys are aware but none of the big brand torque sensing bikes like trek rail, Levo, etc have cut off brakes. If you choose to do so then that’s totally up to you. If you have a throttle then it’s a must.
Click to expand...

Why is it "a must" for a 1 HP vehicle when no vehicle with 100+ HP has this feature?
 
Chalo said:
Do y'all drive a car or a real motorcycle? If so, does it have a power interlock with the brakes?
Click to expand...

I too had thought likewise earlier.

But after doing a PoC for virtual torque controller, changed my opinion on this. While testing, at times I have felt a necessity of brake switch.

Reason: ramp time, to be specific negative ramp time. To provide a smooth driving experience, a non-zero negative ramp time is used. Say it is set at 2s & rider is going uphill with max current, at the end of the hill rider will stop throttle/pedaling. It takes 2 seconds for the controller to reduce current from maximum to zero, imagine at the top of the hill there is an intersection & without brake cutoff, it is dangerous. (my testing terrain have this kind of a situation)

By not using negative ramp time or zero negative ramp time, this scenario can be avoided, but the ride will be jerky & will affect ride quality at all times.
 
rcx194 said:
beemac said:
jbalat said:
You don’t need brake sensors with a torque assist bike
Click to expand...

What's your rationale for that statement? If you don't want to strip your blue nylon gear regularly (or be really really careful about braking under power) then you absolutely do need brake sensors with the tsdz2.
Click to expand...

I agree. My bike feels much safer with brake sensors and they also allow me to quickly power down the bike by part pulling the lever.
Click to expand...
I commute in traffic. No mountain biking use case for me. Quick stop requires a cutout for me.
 
Chalo said:
Do y'all drive a car or a real motorcycle? If so, does it have a power interlock with the brakes?

If not, how do you possibly manage it?
Click to expand...
Yes, it's called a clutch. If you don't engage it (for a manual/stick shift) when braking to a stop the engine will stall - which is analogous to stripping the blue gear.
 
jbalat said:
Not sure if you guys are aware but none of the big brand torque sensing bikes like trek rail, Levo, etc have cut off brakes. If you choose to do so then that’s totally up to you. If you have a throttle then it’s a must. I agree though it’s a bad habit to brake under power.. all it needs is to be aware and you will eventually stop doing it.
Click to expand...

That is surprising - i assumed they had sensors. Interesting!

Agreed that you should be able to train yourself to not brake under power - I think I only do it when stopping and getting off in one motion. I brake and keep my weight on the rising pedal as I swing my other leg over...
 
And motorcycles also have a kill switch. Although I don't feel like brake cutoffs are really necessary on most e-bikes. The brakes should be able to overpower the motors in the rare instance of a runaway.

beemac said:
Chalo said:
Do y'all drive a car or a real motorcycle? If so, does it have a power interlock with the brakes?

If not, how do you possibly manage it?
Click to expand...
Yes, it's called a clutch. If you don't engage it (for a manual/stick shift) when braking to a stop the engine will stall - which is analogous to stripping the blue gear.
Click to expand...
 
beemac said:
Chalo said:
Do y'all drive a car or a real motorcycle? If so, does it have a power interlock with the brakes?

If not, how do you possibly manage it?
Click to expand...
Yes, it's called a clutch. If you don't engage it (for a manual/stick shift) when braking to a stop the engine will stall - which is analogous to stripping the blue gear.
Click to expand...

Wow, your clutch is joined to the brakes? Mine wasn't, when I rode a stinker bike. Nor when I drove a stinker car.

My point is, in every other motor vehicle, it's up to the operator to avoid applying brakes and power at the same time. Yet with the weakest kind of motor vehicle, some people think it's important to do this automatically, when no other vehicles have this feature.
 
Chalo said:
beemac said:
Chalo said:
Do y'all drive a car or a real motorcycle? If so, does it have a power interlock with the brakes?

If not, how do you possibly manage it?
Click to expand...
Yes, it's called a clutch. If you don't engage it (for a manual/stick shift) when braking to a stop the engine will stall - which is analogous to stripping the blue gear.
Click to expand...

Wow, your clutch is joined to the brakes? Mine wasn't, when I rode a stinker bike. Nor when I drove a stinker car.
Click to expand...

Yes via the controller - me! :)

Chalo said:
My point is, in every other motor vehicle, it's up to the operator to avoid applying brakes and power at the same time. Yet with the weakest kind of motor vehicle, some people think it's important to do this automatically, when no other vehicles have this feature.
Click to expand...

Yea I get that - and it's an interesting point. Without doing maths that's way beyond me my thinking is that small, lightweight gears like there are inside your favourite :wink: mid-drive can't cope with the forces of the motor when faced with an immovable object. A car or larger vehicle can have much larger, heavier, stronger gears that can cope with those forces enough to stall the motor rather than strip gears..

edit: obviously bigger gears can handle more power/torque etc. I meant I think it's probably not linear...

But I've never tested what happens with a tsdz2 with a brass gear replacing the nylon or ridden for any length of time without brake sensors - so I'm lacking a bit of data there...

I do remember when I first put the motor on my bike and had no sensors and did early tests up and down the road that I did hear ticking/clicking noises from the motor that I've not heard since... but I was probably not paying attention to not braking under power...

Either way it seems it's much less clear cut than I thought and really down to personal preference - but I'm not giving up my brake sensors any time yet! My nylon gears are still going strong (famous last words) and I don't have any need to test the alternative configurations.
 
Hi All

A while since I have been here and it's great to see the same names still here.

After 3500miles of tough tiding, I have a problem. Current speed reads zero and battery always shows one bar. Otherwise the motor works normally.

I have a 52volt battery and use the simple 52volt conversion program with the old original stock display that came with the motor.

I had completely failed to make the Open Source Software work and ended up with two redundant 860c displays. I am pretty sure that my fault is with my display as I have tried swapping over with a friend's stock display. Does anyone know if I can try to use one of the 860c screens before I order a new stock screen? This of course would involve flashing it with appropriate firmware.

I have learnt to love the TSDZ2 in standard form but I would still like to increase cadence.

Many thanks
 
jbalat said:
Not sure if you guys are aware but none of the big brand torque sensing bikes like trek rail, Levo, etc have cut off brakes. If you choose to do so then that’s totally up to you. If you have a throttle then it’s a must. I agree though it’s a bad habit to brake under power.. all it needs is to be aware and you will eventually stop doing it.
Click to expand...

Dammit wish I'd not started thinking about this :)

I wonder if it's something we can implement in software to mitigate/reduce the need/want for brake sensors... :?:

Torque sensor reads pressure
Motor has a current/power target - so it's expecting to be able to spin.
Wheel speed sensor shows sharp deceleration/speed decrease
Cadence sensor shows sharp deceleration/speed decrease

I'm trying to think of normal situations where the above would be true.... as otherwise that would seem to be good criteria for cutting motor power since the bike appears to be stopping despite the pressure on the pedals.

Obviously the key is detecting it quickly and stopping power - reducing the window of opportunity for damage...

I still need to dig my tsdz2 dev stuff out of storage and I've got a lot of unfinished projects on the go so now maybe not the time. Perhaps once my campervan conversion is a bit more finished now the weather's getting better..
 
Jaybee258 said:
.....
I have a 52volt battery and use the simple 52volt conversion program with the old original stock display that came with the motor.

I had completely failed to make the Open Source Software work and ended up with two redundant 860c displays. I am pretty sure that my fault is with my display as I have tried swapping over with a friend's stock display. ...
Click to expand...
You don't need always a 860C display with OSF to have a higher cadence
You can also install OSF with stock display and have the same options too, like fieldweakening and higher cadence.
 
RichardPH said:
I haven't got anywhere near the actual OSF, it's the Java aspect that has me defeated me. I followed the wiki as far as step 5 when after searching through the sub directories I found JavaConfigurator.jar, but clicking on it didn't lead me anywhere recognisable [to someone who has never done anything like this]. I think the problem is that I don't know what I don't know, and asking the right question is difficult.
Click to expand...

I recently had the same issue Richard and the issue wasn't Java but W10 it self. Once one has installed the Jre or thinks one has done so, a system check is needed to confirm W10 has actually done so.
Bottom LH corner of the tool bar next to the W sign is the magnifying/search area click the glass and type cmd, one should see command prompt, click it to enter . Next one will see their user name and the cursor flashing after it simply type java and press the enter pad rhs of the querty board and if jre loaded correctly the page will fill with text.
If it says java isn't recognised then W10 hasn't allowed it to install, without it you are fooked.

I tried on 2020 W10 laptop and no joy at all, then I tried a 2015 W10 Notepad which hasn't been updated since then and java loaded with no issue and I was away. Other wise an older W opr system should work.
 
Elinx said:
Jaybee258 said:
.....
I have a 52volt battery and use the simple 52volt conversion program with the old original stock display that came with the motor.

I had completely failed to make the Open Source Software work and ended up with two redundant 860c displays. I am pretty sure that my fault is with my display as I have tried swapping over with a friend's stock display. ...
Click to expand...
You don't need always a 860C display with OSF to have a higher cadence
You can also install OSF with stock display and have the same options too, like fieldweakening and higher cadence.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that. Yes I must try that out sometime soon.
 
Waynemarlow said:
beemac said:
What's your rationale for that statement? If you don't want to strip your blue nylon gear regularly (or be really really careful about braking under power) then you absolutely do need brake sensors with the tsdz2.
Click to expand...
I've never stripped a blue gear under braking, always from almost stationary and usually my front wheel wedged against a log or bank which I have failed to get my timing of lifting the front wheel over. In fact I'm not sure how you would under braking.

In some ways I like the small run on in technical conditions, you can give the pedal a small incomplete turn to power you through say a couple of rocks outcrops which you would normally strike your pedals on. Anyway almost every other brand I have ridden has this small delay.
Click to expand...

Interesting comments here guys. I have never seen a need for the brake sensors previously, but you make me think. I have begrudgingly grown to like the small run on of power in technical conditions, but that run on ripped my derailleur off when a piece of heather got stuck in there. Also, the brake sensor would be a good way to kill the run on in the many technical situations when it is not welcome. Like a manual switch for the unwanted run on. Brilliant!
 
Square said:
I have opened the motor and took a look at the controller. First thing I've noticed is a strong burnt plastic smell, and also a strange black mark on the inside of the case (see right arrow of the first pic). Is this worrying, or could this be from normal wear or manufacturing?



This is what the bare motor looks like. Not sure what to think of it... Does the color looks off? Resistance between the coils is about 1 ohm, but this could be because of my very low quality multimeter leads.



Now for the controller: I was able to program and verify the MCU using an ST-Link, so this part seems to be working. Visually, the controller looks fine, couldn't see any obviously blown part.

But the controller behaves very strangely when I disconnect the bare motor (so that it is only connected to the battery and XH18 display): if I plug in the battery and turn the battery on, I can use the battery's gauge button just fine. I can then turn on the display, see the "Welcome" message on boot and for a fraction of a second, I can see the speed indicator before the display abruptly turns off. When this happens, the battery's gauge button stops working. Is this normal behavior when the bare motor and speed sensor are disconnected from the controller? Or does this definitively means something is wrong with my controller?

I believe one component of the controller got toast, but I still cannot rule out a problem of the motor because of the color and black mark...

Also, I apologize for my bad english. My ebike has been my only mean of transportation for the past few months, while I waiting for my motorcycle licence and exams. This is something that takes forever to get in my country (France). So for the next few weeks, I will have to rely on barely adequate public transport that comes thrice a day to my village...
Click to expand...

I have replaced the controller on my TSDZ2 with a new one, and now it doesn't shutdown and short the battery anymore. But when I try to activate the motor using the 6km/h walk mode, the motor won't turn and I can only hear a very small buzzing from the motor. If I keep trying the walk mode for some time, I can hear a small, very high pitch sound. What could be wrong?
 
Square said:
I have replaced the controller on my TSDZ2 with a new one, and now it doesn't shutdown and short the battery anymore. But when I try to activate the motor using the 6km/h walk mode, the motor won't turn and I can only hear a very small buzzing from the motor. If I keep trying the walk mode for some time, I can hear a small, very high pitch sound. What could be wrong?
Click to expand...

I think I have damaged the blue nylon gear while going uphill fast on a hot day. I'd like to check that but I think I damaged the screw heads of the bare motor by trying to unscrew them. Is there any way to remove the motor now?
 
Square said:
Square said:
I have replaced the controller on my TSDZ2 with a new one, and now it doesn't shutdown and short the battery anymore. But when I try to activate the motor using the 6km/h walk mode, the motor won't turn and I can only hear a very small buzzing from the motor. If I keep trying the walk mode for some time, I can hear a small, very high pitch sound. What could be wrong?
Click to expand...

I think I have damaged the blue nylon gear while going uphill fast on a hot day. I'd like to check that but I think I damaged the screw heads of the bare motor by trying to unscrew them. Is there any way to remove the motor now?
Click to expand...

you might try special unscrew bits for damaged screws . make sure to get the right size
 
The countersunk Philips screws mounting the motor into the body? If I recall those can be crazy tight from the factory, if you still have a decent amount of head left you can find the largest and best fitting screwdriver you can find, one with a real nice and clean head. Heat up the screw if you can get in there, maybe try a soldering iron on the head or try and get some penetrating oil in there (I can't remember if they have loctite on them or not so if someone knows that would determine if heat or oil is best here, or honestly oil then heat couldn't hurt). Then insert the screw driver and apply some torque, while applying torque tap the back of the screwdriver with a hammer, increase the torque and hammer taps until it comes free or gives way.
 
Wapous said:
For those who want to 3D print the main gear cover, here is an STL file. Hoping that can help.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UW5vql0k31FnOcHe531Ey3BUUmhnL7Jj/view?usp=sharing
Click to expand...

Neat. For those who don’t, I found one seller on aliexpress that had this part. He was the only one at the time (about 18 months ago). Seller name is ejoyqi.
 
I have a 36v 350W motor from PSWPower. It's always very quick when I start off, but after about 5 or 10 mins, the power seems to reduce and I don't get much feeling of assistance. It's still working, but much less notable. I've only done a few hundred km, and I think it's always done this. Can anyone suggest how to figure out the problem?
 
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