Ninja 250 "Clone" Made in China

Elektrosherpa said:

The red cover of the ANT BMS-did you print that yourself?

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Yeah I designed the enclosure then printed it on my printers

Elektrosherpa said:

I am asking, because the ANT BMS you recommended in my build thread was "naked"
(and that is what I need, because it must fit into the battery case).

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Yep unfortunately the ANT doesn't come with an enclosure, so I had todesign my own

Elektrosherpa said:

By the way:
you do not seem to read in my thread anymore?
I have asked you a question there, about the App for the ANT BMS...
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=110352&p=1702592#p1702592

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I don't have the answer to that because I live in China and we can't use the playstore here.
That s why I didn't answer, wouldn't want to pollute the thread with useless content :wink:
Sorry for the misunderstanding

Progress has been slowed a little bit, I broke my printer so I had to repair it first. Now everything's fixed and I can print again.

I've been experimenting with the wrinkle paint and finally got some decent results. For that, I had to try printing with new materials. So far I was almost exclusively printing in PLA, but for this project I wanted a more durable material. It needs to resist the sun exposure, so that mens UV protection and high temperature resistance. I first tried polycarbonate, but it turns out it was impossible to print on my printer because I don't have an enclosure.

Then I learned about the existence of ASA, which is a plastic that is very good at resisting UV and also has a glass transition of aroung 95 degree celsius (PLA is only 55-60 degree celsius). This plastic printed fairly well.

I started experimenting on a little side project (a small high precision/very fast refresh rate scale). First designed it, then printed it with ASA:


It turns out this material is very nice and easy to sand. So it was very easy to remove the print lines and make it look nice!
Then I spray painted with the wrinkle paint and put it in the oven for around 40-50 minutes.
It worked very well, the result was pretty satisfying:




So now I'm reprinting all the parts of the BMS box with this material. I've already printed the little cover of the BMS and got it painted:


And also printed the last version of the enclosure:



The lid is currently being printed. Next step is to sand the whole thing to the best of my ability, and then it will be time for its final coats of paint.
I think the finish can be very nice if I don't mess up. :lol:

Awesome man! That wrinkle paint looks fantastic on the plastic parts!

cheers
Tyler

Hey Dui, what vehicle did that LiFePO4 battery come from? Did you ever find out?

CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING said:

Hey Dui, what vehicle did that LiFePO4 battery come from? Did you ever find out?

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I'm not so sure, there is a sticker on it saying "VTRUX".
My brief search on google got me there, apparently Jay Leno tried one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5STy6HRZEQ

Seem like it is some kind of hybrid pickup truck, but I doubt they made as many as they expected. :lol:

Hi guys, 8)
It's been a while, but I've been in lockdown for the past two months already. Still am today while writing this, and still no idea when it's gonna end, if ever.
Anyway...

At least it's been a great opportunity to find more time to work on the bike, and the good news is that it's done, basically. I just have a few stuff I can't do during the lockdown, like... well riding it.

So first I painted, then baked the BMS enclosure, the wrinkle paint came out really nice but as it turns out it doesn't work very well with phone cameras, in real life it looks like a really nice aluminum casting:


Then the lid:


A nice bead of silicone sealant before attaching the BMS box, hopefully for the last time:



Reinstalled the controller and all the power wiring:




Finally I put back all the fairings, the odometer and everything. Finally, done!...... Well that's what I thought.
Just one day later the BMS screen started acting up, then stopped working entirely. I narrowed it down to a defective wire.... Deep inside the BMS enclosure.
So I had to take everything apart once again. I'll spare you the pics, but you can easily guess that this hasn't been the happiest moment :lol:

Anyway, Now the screen is fixed, everything seems to work just fine, so I took it outside to make a few beauty shots:





Now I still have a few things to do:
-Get a new DCDC converter. I thought I had one spare but apparently it was broken, so I borrowed the current one from the red bike.
-Get a cable to connect the APT controller to my computer. I tried several cables and none seemed to work so far, so I'll order the official one and see if it makes any difference. Unfortunately I can't do any of those things before the lockdown is over and deliveries reopened...
-Close the lid of the battery box, but I need to make a few rides first to make sure everything is fine and nothing moves around too much inside the box before I definitely close it.

I can't tune the controller right now but it does work almost fine already. Aside form a lot of vibrations under 6kmh it seems to work pretty well. Right now it already pushes quite more than the sabvoton, but I expect it should be even better after at least making the hall sensor angle calibration procedure.
Anyway, 99% done!

Beautiful work and what a great result!

Excellent progress. Sorry about lockdown, hopefully that is released soon!

cheers
Tyler

I have a Chinese electric motorcycle looks like a ducati a little it is supposed to have a 10000w hub motor with 72v 80a lithium but they put in a fardriver nd72360 controller that is max bus current 150a and max phase current 400a it's fun to drive but take off is a dog. Would a higher current controller do any thing or can I adjust it for better off the line

Albie72 said:

I have a Chinese electric motorcycle looks like a ducati a little it is supposed to have a 10000w hub motor with 72v 80a lithium but they put in a fardriver nd72360 controller that is max bus current 150a and max phase current 400a it's fun to drive but take off is a dog. Would a higher current controller do any thing or can I adjust it for better off the line

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It will all depend on your battery. If your motor is a QS 10 000Watts then it can take pretty much any controller, these motors can take more than 30KW no problem, so you probably won't ever have to worry about your motor.
You mentionned that your battery is a 80A but I believe you mean 80Ah, which is its capacity. You need to know what is its rated power, which is the maximum instant power it can deliver without cutting. Generally that is the BMS cutoff limit, maybe something like 150 or 200A since the manufacturer installed a 150A controller on your bike, but that's just a wild guess. You need to ask the manufacturer of your bike what is the maximum power output of your battery so you can choose a controller that matches it.

Basically you should not install a controller whose rating is superior to the battery's rating, so if you have a 300A battery then you can install a 250A controller but you can't install a 600A controller (unless it's a programmable unit, in which case you should tune down the power in the software so it limits itself to 300A). (please note that I'm talking about battery current, phase current only matter to the motor and since your motor is a 10KW then you don't need to worry about phase current, it should be able to take pretty much anything).

So, to clearly answer your question: yes, a higher current controller will give you more acceleration. But you need to make sure that the battery will not be the limit, otherwise you'll have to tune the controller down to protect the battery. Always try to make the battery the most powerful component of your build, whenever possible.

Is there any way to find out if my motor really is a 10000w and any way to see if it is a 80 ah with out taking the battery apart or out the box

You can take some measurements on the outside of the motor to get an idea, or take the rotor out and measure it.
(and compare to other, similar motors)

When you drain your battery, how many Ah do you get out of it? How many do you get in when you charge?
If you can charge around 80Ah, then you probably have 80Ah. If you can charge 50Ah, probably not..

My charger just has a green and red light on it

I suggest you create a specific thread for your issue, as it's the build thread part of the forum here.
You'll get more answers on the technical part of the forum. :wink:

Hey Mr. Dui, I thought I read you needed a USB programming cable for your APT, and I just found my second one that was missing. So I was thinking I could send you these controllers and cables, if it is not too expensive. I would love to see them be well used and hopefully appreciated and also support your skilled and resourceful builds sir. At least you would have backup or two! Just checking if you might be interested sir. :thumb:

Scootdan said:

Hey Mr. Dui, I thought I read you needed a USB programming cable for your APT, and I just found my second one that was missing. So I was thinking I could send you these controllers and cables, if it is not too expensive. I would love to see them be well used and hopefully appreciated and also support your skilled and resourceful builds sir. At least you would have backup or two! Just checking if you might be interested sir. :thumb:

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Wow, that would be absolutely awesome, how could I even say no ? :lol:
Then I would have to build something crazy, I'd have no excuse anymore now would I :lol:

Thanks for your kindness Dan, I can't believe how nice some people are, I don't even know what to say. Thank you!

I can dig it sir! Just pm me your address and I will see if it is not too expensive. It would be great to make it happen this weekend. Man, I am having so much fun on my scoot now, these Bluetooth adjustable controllers are so cool. It will be so awesome to see what you do with these monster controllers Dui!

Some updates on the build:

I tried to get the APT controller to connect to my computer but had no success. Vendor said that this is an issue with my cable, but it's the third one I tried so I'm not really willing to purchase a 4th, a 5th, a millionth cable until I find one that works....
Also, the controller was very, very heavy and since it was pretty high on the frame (right under the gas tank), it made the bike a lot more difficult to steer. So that was a bit annoying for me since I like my bikes to be light and very manoeuverable (it's a must here in the crowded cities, you constantly have to avoid crazy people coming out of nowhere :lol: ).

So I decided to get serious and I bought myself a Nanjing Far 841800 Track version, which is good for 1800 phase amps and a whopping 1300 battery amps This time it is a hall sensor version, not an encoder one, I've learned my lesson :lol:
No way my battery will be able to supply that kind of current (the BMS will cut way before that anyway), but I could use the controller later on some other projects so better safe than sorry :wink:

Anyway, I installed it on the bike and started to configure it. It was kind of a painful experience because it came with a buggy firmware so I had a huge throttle delay at release, the bike kept accelerating for a few seconds after releasing the accelerator, which was very scary. Got it sorted after uploading a new firmware file I got from the vendor. The first few days with this controller were not fun, nothing worked properly, the documentation is absolutely horrific and the app was buggy. At least it works now with the new firmware so things are a lot better now, but it took more than a week to get things sorted.

So right now it finally works well and the game is to experiment to try to get as much performance as I can without blowing up the motor. Remember my motor is only a 3KW rated QS hub, with no temperature sensor, so that's kind of a gamble. However, I purchased some statorade so hopefully I should be able to get a little bit more margin of error.

Right now I've remained conservative in my settings, I think the phase amps are set to 650 amps and the battery amps to 400. I've seen the BMS screen displaying more than 370 amps during acceleration so I know it is actually working as intended. Means that the poor little 3KW motor gets to see about 25KW of power right now with the current settings....

So far I have relatively slower accleration from 0-40 kmh, but once passed that speed the torque is really impressive. The acceleration from 40-120 is really strong and seems unstoppable, it feels like an airplane at takeoff. I couldn't go too fast on the roads near my house, but I reached 130 km/h with no apparent effort, I think it can reach 160km/h (100 mph or so), but I'll have to crank up the power a little bit on the hight rpm range. With a proper motor I believe 200 is totally doable. Not sure it can be achieved with the 3KW motor, not really willing to try it either since I wouldn't want the motor to explode at that kind of speeds...

Anyway, so far so good, next step will be to put some ferrofluid in there and possibly try to install a temp sensor... I really, really didn't want to open this motor since it worked so well over these years, but I think now it has become necessary if I don't want a disaster to happen later.
Any one knows what temp sensor I should use in there? I kinda forgot, I'm not sure anymore.

Thanks !

I have the same forks do u get clunk noise when u brake hard also are ur front brake pads make noise by shifting I get a lot of clinking

Albie72 said:

I have the same forks do u get clunk noise when u brake hard also are ur front brake pads make noise by shifting I get a lot of clinking

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No, my brakes and fork work fine, no problem.

Albie72 said:

I have the same forks do u get clunk noise when u brake hard also are ur front brake pads make noise by shifting I get a lot of clinking

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Sorry to hijack @Dui, ni shuo de dui .

@Albie72 the clunk is normally brake pads and calipers not being well made and the fit is too loose allowing pads to move or twist. Pads might be small or caliper is big. Hopefully better quality pads can resolve it otherwise not much can be done for the caliper if it is over size. It would help to lightly grease the mating surfaces of the pads and calipers with ceramic grease, just a little bit. Then the pads might clunk but will move smoothly and stay aligned and contact the disc correctly.

Ok back to our regular viewing thanks Dui [emoji16]

cheers
Tyler

Thank you

Still in the process of tuning the Fardriver controller. I'm slowly cranking up the power, trying to find the limits of my motor without killing it... Risky game...
So, in an attempt to give the motor every possible chance of survival, I decided to feed it a little bit of magic potion: statorade!
Since it was impossible to find the "official" statorade here in China, I had to find an alternative. So I used a product from Ferrotec, the MPG2100, which is a liquid used for cooling high performance speakers.

So I had to resort to open the motor, which usually it a giant pain to do. Mostly because separating the stator from the rotor is really, really hard, you usually end up bashing the motor on the ground dozens of time, every time risking damaging something... Well, not this time!
This time I used a bearing extractor:
First taking out the motor and putting it on my table, which has a big hole in it, making the whole process a bit easier:


And then using the extractor from the bottom to push the stator upwards until it separated from the rotor:



If you don't have an extractor and you plan to open your motor someday, get one asap. This thing paid for itself just with this job, it made the whole process a walk in the park!

I've got this motor for 5-6 years and got it second hand in the first place... I was expecting to see rust, I was expecting to see burned copper, magnet flakes all over, dirt, all kind of crap.
I sure wasn't expecting to find the insides in a pristine condition, this thing looks brand new!



Considering how hard I have been riding this motor for the past years it is amazing. Keep in mind this is a 3000W rated motor and I've been running it at 15-20KW for a while now.

Anyway, I used a small paint brush to apply the statorade all over the magnets:



I've also added two new wires through the shaft in order to install a temperature sensor. This motor didn't come equipped with one.
I'm not sure the one I installed is working properly though, I'm getting 160 degree Celsius on the coils after a 5-10 minutes ride. I don't think this is correct since I've ridden the bike for much longer rides at such power levels and it didn't burn. The insides would look a lot more cooked if it was really reaching these kind of temps. At least I suppose... I've ordered different sensors so I will re-open the motor in a few days and try with a new one just to be sure, I'll have to replace the seals and bearings anyway.

Also here's the Fardriver installed, I'll have to make a better bracket for it, this one's just temporary, and also I'll have to shorten the power wires as they were intended for the APT controller which had terminals at the front.


I can't say if the statorade works well since I don't have any base reference to compare, because my motor never had a temp sensor. But I can definitely say that the motor casing is way hotter than it used to be. I sure hope this indicates that the heat transfer from the coils is getting a lot better and that it is not just more heat being generated

So far I've cranked up the power to 700 amps per phase, 550 Amps battery and it is really impressive. Had a few races against 600cc and 1000cc bikes and let's say that my bike was not ridiculous at all. It lacks a bit of a kick at startup and I don't think I'll be able to wheelie anytime soon with it (I don't care though, I've got the scooter for that :lol: ) but then it wakes up once passed 30kph and it seems to get more and more powerfull until there is no road anymore. Feels just like an airplane at takeoff, this feeling of irresistible power increasing over and over. Insane.
I've reached more than 130km/h easily (80+mph), but I need to find a longer road to try to see what's the maximum it can reach, it can definitely go faster.

What size is the motor, is it 205 50h?
I think it looks bigger in the picture, maybe more like 273 40h.
How much ferrofluid did you put in there? I think 10ml is recommended for a 205 50h.
Amazing that it looks so fresh

Have you seen what phase amps the app shows that the fardriver puts out?
If it is the same that you put in or not. I saw someone else got just 700A, and I think it was on a bigger hub.

j bjork said:

What size is the motor, is it 205 50h?
I think it looks bigger in the picture, maybe more like 273 40h.
How much ferrofluid did you put in there? I think 10ml is recommended for a 205 50h.
Amazing that it looks so fresh

Have you seen what phase amps the app shows that the fardriver puts out?
If it is the same that you put in or not. I saw someone else got just 700A, and I think it was on a bigger hub.

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Yeah it's a 273, probably 40H but I don't know.
I didn't put a lot of ferrofluid, probably a little bit less than 10ml. I've red somewhere in the forum that it wasn't necessary to put a lot. I had nothing to measure precisely.

For the phase amps, I can't really keep an eye on my phone while riding, and I loose the bluetooth very often so I can't really record the data either. I will try again sometime. Judging by how the ride feels I'd say it is probably accurate, at first I've set it up exatly like my old Sabvoton (510 amps) just to compare and it felt really similar. Then I crancked up to 630 and it was significantly more powerful.... Now its set up to 700 amps and you can clearly feel the difference again
No Idea how accurate it is, but the power is there, that's for sure! :wink: