Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Hi All,

So I want to start by thanking everyone for responding to my earlier questions... THANK YOU!!

Now for a little background, and my expectations for my upcoming build so that those with more experience might help with a couple of final decisions, and/or point out any glaring faults with my design....

So, I have been riding motorcycles for 45+ years now, and they have always been more than could ride wide open... I hope this ebike will be similar (Yes I want it to be able to throw your ass off if you just ride it like an idiot!)

Most of my riding will be in the streets of Lake Havasu, AZ (USA). Havasu is built on the side of a big hill or maybe a small mountain, and nobody cares how much power you have, or any ebike classification stufff... So most all the roads around town have a 35mph speed limit, and a few at 25mph. The roads weave up and down along the side of the large hill so there are lots of ups and downs, but if you use momentum as your friend the climb time is relatively short (usually less than 1 minute).

As I stated above, I purchased the last Stealth Beta frame (which has 135mm drop outs). The build will be a combination of small motorcycle parts, and MTB parts. The bike will be closely designed after my most fun motorcycles which have full suspension, supermoto wheels, with 70%/30% street/off road type tires.

MY BUILD REQUIREMENTS ARE:

1. I want to be able to cruise at 35mph (while pedaling), with a max speed of 45mph or a little more.

2..I am hoping to have some sort of "Beast Mode" for a short burst at MAX settings - Something of a "holy sh*t" factor" i.e "wheelie popper mode"

THE BUILD (As of 8/13/22):

* Stealth Beta frame

* M/C Rims - 17 Rear (24" OD), 19F

*A.T.S. Speed Drive - with 5 or 7 speed, and derailleur. I want to be able to pedal at speed.

* Battery - 72V??? Not sure yet... I am thinking Really Good 21700's from Japan or Indonesia (I am looking for quality here, not the lowest cost). This doesn't have to be decided Today! I am open for suggestions????

* Controller - Frankenrunner???? I have questions about this with only 96 phase amps, will this meet my requirements of "holy sh*t"!!

* Cycle Analyst - V3

* LEAF MOTOR - THIS IS WHERE THE QUESTIONS START:

After reading the comments my first questions generated, I am going to use the Leaf Motor purchase as an opportunity to: 1. Disassemble to change the thermister. 2. Add ferro-fluid. 3. Investigate the possibility of making one of the disk mounting holes into a fluid fill point for the future. And 4. Seal the cover plates properly.

So, questions are:

1. F/W or cassette?? - Some years back the F/W was preferred over the Cassette, because the axle was stronger??

2. 5 or 7 speed?? - I have read here that 7 speed will, and will not fit.... Maybe that depends of F/W vs. Cassette? I found this on sale: https://www.interlocracing.com/shop?search=freewheel

3. 4T or 5T?? - I am not real confident in my use of the "Motor Simulator" .... I am hoping someone with real world experience might help to make this choice.

I think that is it for now.... I am open any and all suggestions or comments!

Thanks in advance,

Keith

Dunlop said:

MY BUILD REQUIREMENTS ARE:

1. I want to be able to cruise at 35mph (while pedaling), with a max speed of 45mph or a little more.

Click to expand...

The Leafbike 1500W could definitely handle this.

2..I am hoping to have some sort of "Beast Mode" for a short burst at MAX settings - Something of a "holy sh*t" factor" i.e "wheelie popper mode"

Click to expand...

Completely stock, the Leafbike can easily handle 6 kW peak and 150A phase current. Add ferrofluid and hub sink, increase that to 10 kW peak and 250A phase current. Either is plenty.

THE BUILD (As of 8/13/22):

* Stealth Beta frame

* M/C Rims - 17 Rear (24" OD), 19F

*A.T.S. Speed Drive - with 5 or 7 speed, and derailleur. I want to be able to pedal at speed.

Click to expand...

I can fit a 7-speed DNP Epoch 32-11T freewheel with my Leafbike 1500W 3T in 135mm dropouts just fine.

* Battery - 72V??? Not sure yet... I am thinking Really Good 21700's from Japan or Indonesia (I am looking for quality here, not the lowest cost). This doesn't have to be decided Today! I am open for suggestions????

Click to expand...

72V in a stock 5T wind would meet or exceed your top speed requirements.

I'd recommend building a battery pack. Bench-tested data for good battery for this can be found in the following topic:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=116190

* Controller - Frankenrunner???? I have questions about this with only 96 phase amps, will this meet my requirements of "holy sh*t"!!

Click to expand...

This controller is perfectly adequate for getting around, but not for your "holy shit" requirements. It's a 1500W continuous controller, more with a heat sink. It only does 60A continuous and 96A peak. I use a Phaserunner with my build and have had very good reliability and enough performance to spin the rear wheel, but the acceleration is not exactly top tier. I have mine set to 3 kW, but my vehicle is so aerodynamically slippery that when I'm up to speed, my controller and motor are operating below their continuous ratings and get a chance to cool. For a high-drag vehicle like yours, this controller will not be able to deliver the performance you seek. The Leafbike motor can handle significantly more current and power than what this controller is capable of, at least for short periods.

Instead I recommend an ASI BAC2000 or a Nucular 12F, as both are a good match for this motor if you want to make use of its maximum capabilities.

So, questions are:

1. F/W or cassette?? - Some years back the F/W was preferred over the Cassette, because the axle was stronger??

Click to expand...

The axle on the cassette version is thinner on the cassette mount side than the disc brake side. This is a possible heightened-risk failure point. The freewheel version has consistent axle thickness for both sides.

2. 5 or 7 speed?? - I have read here that 7 speed will, and will not fit.... Maybe that depends of F/W vs. Cassette? I found this on sale: https://www.interlocracing.com/shop?search=freewheel

Click to expand...

My 7-speed freewheel fits perfectly fine in 135mm dropouts. I also tried the cassette version and it also fit. I did have to use a washer as a spacer on the freewheel side to keep the freewheel from rubbing the frame, and I did have to use a large flathead screwdriver to ever-so-slightly pry the frame apart that extra fraction of a millimeter so that the motor would slide into the dropouts.

3. 4T or 5T?? - I am not real confident in my use of the "Motor Simulator" .... I am hoping someone with real world experience might help to make this choice.

Click to expand...

The motor simulator itself is fairly accurate. The issue is that you don't know what drag your bike has, and that will affect the accuracy of the calculation. The default kV value in the simulator for the Leafbike is for the 5T. If you use the 5T, you'll want a 72V system to meet or slightly exceed your top speed requirements. Depending on your drag, you might also be able to just barely reach 45 mph on a 6T wind with 72V, the advantage being the ability to reduce the amount of current needed for a desired amount of torque. A 4T will allow you to use a lower battery pack voltage for the same top speed, as will a 3T.

The Leafbike has 66 spaces available for copper coils. The number of turns it is wound to will give a maximum copper fill if 66 can be neatly divided by that number with the result being a whole number. This means 3T, 6T, and 11T maximize that fill area. 5T comes close, as does 4T. The difference in peak/continuous power possible between ideal copper fill and non-ideal copper fill is a small 3-figure value of watts, but it is something to consider if you want to go all-out for performance.

Dunlop said:

2..I am hoping to have some sort of "Beast Mode" for a short burst at MAX settings - Something of a "holy sh*t" factor" i.e "wheelie popper mode"

Click to expand...

I think you need at least 100NM on a light bike to make you fill up your shorts. Over 80NM is pretty responsive, to roll on the throttle, and accelerates well. Your build may need more, since it will be heavier and has heavy rims and tires.

Looks like you're around 85NM using the Grin controller.
https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=Leaf%205T&batt=B7223_AC&cont=FR&hp=0&axis=mph&frame=mountain&autothrot=false&throt=100&grade=0&wheel=25i&mass=110

The Leaf is a great motor, but most folks building a bike with the frame and wheels that you are planning, use a bigger motor with 45mm or 50mm stators.

Thank you to The Toecutter for your quick response!

I did forget to mention that I am planning to order Hub Sinks along with the Ferro-fluid....

I was afraid the Frankenrunner was going to be the weak link in my plan (a friend is pushing me in that direction), and I it was kind of interesting because of its small size, I might have been able to mount it under the seat tube bracket that comes on the Beta frame.

So do either the ASI BAC2000 or a Nucular 12F have better capabilities functioning with a CA - V3????

My 7-speed freewheel fits perfectly fine in 135mm dropouts. I also tried the cassette version and it also fit. I did have to use a washer as a spacer on the freewheel side to keep the freewheel from rubbing the frame, and I did have to use a large flathead screwdriver ever-so-slightly pry the frame apart that extra fraction of a millimeter so that the motor would slide into the dropouts.

Click to expand...

So just to clearify, did you need the washer with the Cassette version only?? or both F/W and Cassette?? (I am leaning toward the F/W already).

3. 4T or 5T?? - I am not real confident in my use of the "Motor Simulator" .... I am hoping someone with real world experience might help to make this choice.

The motor simulator itself is fairly accurate. The issue is that you don't know what drag your bike has, and that will affect the accuracy of the calculation. The default kV value in the simulator for the Leafbike is for the 5T. If you use the 5T, you'll want a 72V system to meet or slightly exceed your top speed requirements. Depending on your drag, you might also be able to just barely reach 45 mph on a 6T wind with 72V, the advantage being the ability to reduce the amount of current needed for a desired amount of torque. A 4T will allow you to use a lower battery pack voltage for the same top speed, as will a 3T.

The Leafbike has 66 spaces available for copper coils. The number of turns it is wound to will give a maximum copper fill if 66 can be neatly divided by that number with the result being a whole number. This means 3T, 6T, and 11T maximize that fill area. 5T comes close, as does 4T. The difference in peak/continuous power possible between ideal copper fill and non-ideal copper fill is a small 3-figure value of watts, but it is something to consider if you want to go all-out for performance.

Click to expand...

Very nice explanation!!.... I was only thinking about trying to run the motor at about 80% of max speed ( in my case at 35mph) so that I would be in the "high Efficiency" range. Since the Beta frame is more minimalistic than most "Bomber" frames, I kind of like not having to go all the way to 72V... WHAT WOULD YOU CHOOSE???

As far a drag goes, I am going to be at the higher end of the scale as far a bicycle designs go.... I am heavy, the tires are small motorcycle tires @20psi, and I sit up on the bike like a supermoto motorcycle...

I know that no matter how much planning goes in, the build doesn't always come out perfect.... but Toecutter, I think you can tell, I am trying to do everything possible to make it right the first time!! (I hate doing things twice).

Thanks again,
Keith

Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

by E-HP » Aug 13 2022 8:23pm

Dunlop wrote: ↑
Aug 13 2022 5:56pm
2..I am hoping to have some sort of "Beast Mode" for a short burst at MAX settings - Something of a "holy sh*t" factor" i.e "wheelie popper mode"

I think you need at least 100NM on a light bike to make you fill up your shorts. Over 80NM is pretty responsive, to roll on the throttle, and accelerates well. Your build may need more, since it will be heavier and has heavy rims and tires.

Looks like you're around 85NM using the Grin controller.
https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html? ... i&mass=110

The Leaf is a great motor, but most folks building a bike with the frame and wheels that you are planning, use a bigger motor with 45mm or 50mm stators.
my econo-e-bike https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=97945
Top

Click to expand...

Hi E-HP, Thanks for chiming-in!! I appreciate the numbers you have supplied (That is some knowledge I don't necessarily have with respect to e-bikes. And thanks for the motor sim... I am going back to change the tire diameter to 24" from your 25, but you have me started.
As far as 45 or 50mm stators... I am not aware of many choices when I am confined with 135mm D/O's???
I appreciate all the experienced help I can get!!
Keith

Dunlop said:

So do either the ASI BAC2000 or a Nucular 12F have better capabilities functioning with a CA - V3????

Click to expand...

My current understanding is that the Nucular 12F has its own computer and won't need the CA V3.

The ASI BAC2000 can be ordered with an adapter to work with a CA V3. You'll have to talk with the vendor you buy the controller from.

So just to clearify, did you need the washer with the Cassette version only?? or both F/W and Cassette?? (I am leaning toward the F/W already).

Click to expand...

I needed the washer for the freewheel version. For the cassette, I used a small nut that threaded onto the axle. Both motors needed something to add space between the rear gearset and the frame to prevent rubbing. Neither the freewheel or the cassette version of the motor was a straightforward fit into the 135mm dropouts, and I had to slightly open the frame further apart to get everything to fit. But it did fit, and it only added about 30 minutes of frustration to get it to fit. The consequence is that a tire change can be a hassle. But it did work for me.

Very nice explanation!!.... I was only thinking about trying to run the motor at about 80% of max speed ( in my case at 35mph) so that I would be in the "high Efficiency" range. Since the Beta frame is more minimalistic than most "Bomber" frames, I kind of like not having to go all the way to 72V... WHAT WOULD YOU CHOOSE???

Click to expand...

Personally, I'd aim for a higher top speed, but that's just me.

I'll answer the question in the context of your own goals, as if they were my own.

What kind of pedal assist do you want? If you choose a torque sensor, most of those can work up to 60Vmax(or about 48V nominal if you want a battery that will never reach 60V), so with a torque sensor that will work without any additional electronics, I'd go with a 48V setup and a 4T wind version of this motor. You'd top out around 43 mph at no load in a 24" wheel(add in drag and that will go down to ~40 mph) and 80% of that 43 mph no load speed would be 34 mph. This is really close to the specs you described that you want. You could set the motor up for 10 kW peak and 250A phase current when you have the ferrofluid and hubsink installed, and it would be a very lively performer, going from 0-30 mph faster than most cars and might pop wheelies from the torque if you get enough rear wheel traction. If you want more top speed, go with the 3T wind, which would probably top out somewhere around 50 mph under load.

This on only 48V.

Going to a higher voltage, you'll have a different set of variables to consider. You can still use a torque sensor with a higher voltage, but it will need its own low voltage power supply to work. There's also cadence-sensing PAS solutions that are not as picky about their operating voltage and can work with higher voltage setups.

At 48V, you're also going to need to upgrade your wiring. For a given amount of desired maximum power, a higher voltage allows you to use thinner gauge wiring(to a point. You still need to consider maximum phase current). My Phaserunner, which only goes up to 96A, did melt my 12AWG bullet connectors and the XT60 that the controller came with. I have some XT150 connectors on the way for whenever I make the upgrade to the BAC4000 controller I've got sitting round plus a new 72V pack that I need to finish building. I'm going to start with 150A max phase current and eventually work my way up to 250A. 46.8V/96A was enough for me to peel out and do donuts on a 4T wind in a 26" rear wheel and a 3T wind in a 20" rear wheel, BUT my vehicle is a recumbent trike with most of the weight over the front wheels and very little over the rear drive wheel, so it is starving for traction already. Because of my low drag, I could top more than 45 mph on 46.8V, and the upgrade to 72V should increase that to more than 70 mph. Your bike will be a totally different beast.

The Toecutter said:

Dunlop said:

So just to clearify, did you need the washer with the Cassette version only?? or both F/W and Cassette?? (I am leaning toward the F/W already).

Click to expand...

I needed the washer for the freewheel version. For the cassette, I used a small nut that threaded onto the axle. Both motors needed something to add space between the rear gearset and the frame to prevent rubbing. Neither the freewheel or the cassette version of the motor was a straightforward fit into the 135mm dropouts, and I had to slightly open the frame further apart to get everything to fit. But it did fit, and it only added about 30 minutes of frustration to get it to fit. The consequence is that a tire change can be a hassle. But it did work for me.

Click to expand...

I was able to eliminate the extra washer by moving to a 6 speed freewheel. That also helped with the short axle issue.

E-HP said:

I was able to eliminate the extra washer by moving to a 6 speed freewheel. That also helped with the short axle issue.

Click to expand...

Good to know. I never tried a 6 speed because I require as large of a gearing range as possible for my application. I intend to be able to add thrust from pedaling at all of the vehicle's operating points, whether I'm crawling up a hill at walking speed with the motor disabled, or whether I'm using the motor to careen down the highway over the legal speed limit, and everything in between. Eventually, that's going to entail a gearing range that allows 2.5 mph at 60 rpm cadence all the way up to 120 mph at 140 rpm cadence(this is going to come into play when I eventually go with a 96V or higher setup and have motorcycle parts installed).

If the axle had an extra 1 cm to it, everything would neatly fit without issue including a Grin torque arm on the gearing side, which is a necessity if regen is enabled. As it is, I had to shave some material off the torque arm and go without a washer under the lock nut on the cassette/freewheel side in order for everything to fit.

I'm curious if the more narrow 1000W version of this motor allows more spacing for say, 8sp or 9sp freewheels or cassettes? The 1000W has a 30mm stator instead of the 35 mm that the 1500W has, which may allow an extra 2.5mm on each side. That would be even more ideal. If I could fit a 9sp cassette, I could have an 11-40T range in the rear. Although I'm not sure I'd want more than a 96A Phaserunner for the cassette version of this motor due to the weaker axle, it would be a good match if I decided to later convert my Milan SL velomobile to electric. I'd only need about 1 kW to hold 70 mph on flat ground in that thing, which the Phaserunner is more than capable of delivering. A 72V system with a 3T wind in a 26" wheel with a Phaserunner would be a very interesting setup in a Milan. I'd also be looking at a potential 100+ mph top speed, but the acceleration wouldn't be all that quick, and because of the Milan not being built for that, this capability would very rarely be used. But a 1,000W Leafbike 3T motor set up for 2 kW peak might not be a bad match for this rig.

So I'd have one "bike" for performance(the custom build with perhaps 10 kW), and another for economy(the Milan with 2 kW), both of which would be capable of illegal speeds, and each capable of 200+ miles range. I like having a bike for backup so that I can work on one and still have one for use. I've avoided spending what would have been many thousands of dollars on fuel, taxes, insurance, fees, ect. because of these bikes, and rather like the savings. Per mile of use, the custom build has been greatly cheaper than taking the bus, but it has most of the convenience and speed of a car. I don't think the Milan will ever pay for itself, but it has still been worth every penny just for the novelty of it alone, as I can hit a higher top speed in it unmotorized than I could with my motorized custom build.

I was able to eliminate the extra washer by moving to a 6 speed freewheel. That also helped with the short axle issue.

Click to expand...

Did you still use a 7 speed shifter?? and just adjust the stops? or did you find a shifter to go with the 6 speed F/W?? Those are getting hard to find these days, I believe....

"short axle issue" - This I haven't heard of?? I have seen some people getting Titanium nuts which isn't a bad idea, since the axle flats make a situation of not having full thread engagement. I am considering this, especially since I would like to include some Regen capabilities..

What kind of pedal assist do you want? If you choose a torque sensor, most of those can work up to 60Vmax(or about 48V nominal if you want a battery that will never reach 60V), so with a torque sensor that will work without any additional electronics, I'd go with a 48V setup and a 4T wind version of this motor. You'd top out around 43 mph at no load in a 24" wheel(add in drag and that will go down to ~40 mph) and 80% of that 43 mph no load speed would be 34 mph. This is really close to the specs you described that you want. You could set the motor up for 10 kW peak and 250A phase current when you have the ferrofluid and hubsink installed, and it would be a very lively performer, going from 0-30 mph faster than most cars and might pop wheelies from the torque if you get enough rear wheel traction. If you want more top speed, go with the 3T wind, which would probably top out somewhere around 50 mph under load.

Click to expand...

With most of these more "Hot Rod" builds, it appears that most people are using just throttle control, and no pedal assist at all. I am planning on using a Domino m/c type throttle (personal experience is they make the "good stuff"). Also I am planning on using an A.T.S. Speed drive, so I am not aware of a torque sensor that will work with that BB/Overdrive type system??

Does anyone know what the settings are for a Leaf 4T and 3T to be able to put them in the Motor Simulator??

I was considering a battery in the 60V range, just because the Beta has a somewhat smaller battery compartment. And the link to the Molicel P45B cells is VERY VERY Interesting indeed!! (Thanks for that link!!)
I am leaving the battery build for later because I was hoping to attend the CES (Consumer Electronics Show) this year to snoop around for some of the latest technology cells like the Molicel P45B. (That, and I haven't had the chance to do too much research on cells, as of yet).
Thanks for your responses!!
Keith

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=copper+fill+turns&t=66489&sf=msgonly

There are KV numbers for different winds. Although I've seen some slightly different numbers thrown around in this thread, I believe the ones of the last post on that page are correct but there are also ones in the middle of that page that are slightly different.

Dunlop said:

I was able to eliminate the extra washer by moving to a 6 speed freewheel. That also helped with the short axle issue.

Click to expand...

Did you still use a 7 speed shifter?? and just adjust the stops? or did you find a shifter to go with the 6 speed F/W?? Those are getting hard to find these days, I believe....

"short axle issue" - This I haven't heard of?? I have seen some people getting Titanium nuts which isn't a bad idea, since the axle flats make a situation of not having full thread engagement. I am considering this, especially since I would like to include some Regen capabilities..

Click to expand...

I still have my 7 speed shifter (Gripshift), but I got a 6 speed that I ordered, waiting in the parts box for replacing during my winter upgrades. 7 speed works for for the 3 or so gears I use. Might be slightly off if I used the full range, but never tried.
The Leaf motors come with shorter axles than other motors. It was challenging to get torque arms on both sides and still have enough thread engagement with the nuts.
Look closely at the nut and axle in this pic.

Even with the 6 speed freewheel and without the extra washer, I'm about a 1/2 thread short of full engagement.

scianiac - Thank you for the link.. I thought the decision was between 4T and 5T, but the 3T now also needs to be thrown in the mix!

Wow E-HP, that is a significant torque arm!!
The Beta frame has torque plates like this: (About 2/3 of the way down the page)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=71666&hilit=futr&start=2300
I thought I had a plan to improve on this when I was looking at the swing-arm before, but I need the motor to fit in, to decide if it will work...
I do see what you mean about the "Short Axle" though.
Since I don't have any F/W or shifter parts, I will do some searching on 6-speed stuff tonite..
Cheers,
Keith

You will need torque arms on both sides if not a clamping torque arms. Don't try to skip this you will destroy your frame.

by Dunlop » Aug 14 2022 5:11pm

scianiac - Thank you for the link.. I thought the decision was between 4T and 5T, but the 3T now also needs to be thrown in the mix!

Wow E-HP, that is a significant torque arm!!
The Beta frame has torque plates like this: (About 2/3 of the way down the page)
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=71666&hilit=futr&start=2300
I thought I had a plan to improve on this when I was looking at the swing-arm before, but I need the motor to fit in, to decide if it will work...
I do see what you mean about the "Short Axle" though.
Since I don't have any F/W or shifter parts, I will do some searching on 6-speed stuff tonite..
Cheers,
Keith

Click to expand...

Dunlop said:

Does anyone know what the settings are for a Leaf 4T and 3T to be able to put them in the Motor Simulator??

Click to expand...

The default value is 10.494kV for a 5T wind.
4T = 13.1175kV
3T = 17.49kV
6T = 8.745kV

For a 4T wind, take 10.49kV * 5T/4T = 13.1175kV

The 6T on 72V might surprise very well regarding off-the-line performance with a modest Phaserunner, but it won't be "fill your pants" scary, and you probably won't be doing more than 35 mph continuous. If you're on a budget, this would be a good way to get a quick bike that falls slightly short of your desired specs but is still very usable overall and could be lived with on a daily basis, as well as ridden in a spirited manner without destroying stuff. You will need a heatsink for the Phaserunner and may want to swap out the XT60 connector for custom wiring soldered to the controller pins and XT90s as the interface(see this topic regarding how/why to do that: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=112594).

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h...tain&axis=mph&blue=Lbs&cont=cust_45_96_0.01_V

If you plan to upgrade this bike in the future to its fastest possible iteration on this particular motor, you will definitely want the 3T wind. It seems to have the most possible deliverable peak power without overheating of any of the motor types due to having the best possible copper fill(along with its siblings, the 6T and 11T variants) along with the shortest possible coils inside the motor of any of its siblings, which reduces internal resistance, reduces heat production vs current, and increases maximum sustainable current. But with the 3T, you're going to need a high current controller to make the torque needed for the acceleration you want, and the wiring requirements are going to increase due to the increased current. All variants of this motor have roughly the same continuous torque ratings, so the higher wind count motors can't make more continuous torque than the 3T wind without overheating, but they do make more torque per amp. The higher turn count motors simply don't have as high of a continuous amp rating to compensate for the increased torque per amp. The 3T therefore ends up being slightly more efficient than any of the others when run at peak power. If you want the ultimate possible performance from a Leafbike, get the 3T. Be aware that you'll have the capacity to easily overheat the 3T motor if you do this given the possible speeds attained as well as the power requirements required to maintain them.

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h...ph&blue=Lbs&cont=cust_150_250_0.01_V&kv=17.49

I also mention this configuration because this motor with ferrofluid and hubsink could probably do 3,000W for an hour without overheating. The simulator suggests that a 45 mph cruising speed might be possible if the motor can do 3kW for the duration, in addition to the top speed suggested in the link above.

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h...bs&cont=cust_150_250_0.01_V&kv=17.49&throt=65

Play with the simulator a bit and see what catches your interest.

With most of these more "Hot Rod" builds, it appears that most people are using just throttle control, and no pedal assist at all.

Click to expand...

You mentioned pedaling at 35 mph with the motor in use, which is why I mentioned PAS. You can go without PAS, but the pedaling will not work very seamlessly with the motor and most of the time it probably won't be adding thrust unless you're extremely disciplined with the throttle. Most of it will likely be ghost pedaling without PAS. If you want your pedaling to actually add thrust, a PAS is something to consider, as well as tall enough gearing for you to pedal at a reasonable cadence at speed. If you want the pedaling as backup mobility and no PAS, you're going to need low gearing for going up hills without harming your knees.

Looking for info please....what Direct Drive Hub Motors are available with a 135-140mm dropout requirement that also have a wider stator than the 35mm Leaf and a 205mm nominal diameter?

Only thing that comes to mind I know about are the Crystalyte Crown 40mm and the MXUS 45mm.

Just researching all my options....Thanks.

Chalo said:

scianiac said:

Honestly for many cases it doesn't seem to matter if it's a 80lb bicycle or a 500lb motorcycle your gear is the only thing that is going to protect you.

Click to expand...

No. You get much better protection from alertness, due caution, and good habits. If you're relying on protective wear, it seems you already failed step one. In many cases, the wanker armor seems to be a critical element in making riders do dumb things they wouldn't do without the armor.

Click to expand...

Sooo, do you recommend riding with the mindset your are invisible to everyone but the cops?

The Toecutter said:

I can fit a 7-speed DNP Epoch 32-11T freewheel with my Leafbike 1500W 3T in 135mm dropouts just fine.

Click to expand...

Do you have a supplier for a deraileaur and shifter that is compatible with the EPOCH 11-32T?

If going the Hot Rod route then 3000+ watts pedaling is mute. Just do 45 mph instead of 50 and you will save more watts than trying to act like your really helping. Unless you are going the route of toecutter. If you are riding exposed then you just keep the speed down 20 mph and lower where pedaling matters.

Rix said:

Do you have a supplier for a deraileaur and shifter that is compatible with the EPOCH 11-32T?

Click to expand...

Shimano Acera, Altus, or Alivio derailleur with any Shimano 7 speed shifter. SunRace, Microshift, and S-Ride all offer equally functional versions that are compatible with each other. Ask at your local bike shop or consult online vendors.

Rix said:

Do you have a supplier for a deraileaur and shifter that is compatible with the EPOCH 11-32T?

Click to expand...

Chalo beat me to it and offered a better answer than I'd have been able to provide. But I'll describe my experience with the setup I used and offer some things to consider.

I use a Shimano Tourney RD-TX35 with a Shimano Revoshift 7-speed for my rear transmission. I've gotten over 40,000 miles on that part, it was installed more than 3 years before converting to electric, and it has been through 6 sets of 3 of the inexpensive KMC 7-speed chains, 16 shift cables, and 4 cable housings. This combination is a budget option and far from high-end. The derailleur and shifter I both highly recommend. Maintain the parts with oil and grease in the proper places and they last. They hold up fairly well, even when going fast.

The rear derailleur does have significant rust on its finer metal bits at this point, but it's been through 4 winters where the roads are salted when snow is sufficiently thick for the local government(s) to act on it. I did lube and clean those metal bits as needed for the duration of my use, often cleaning the chain and rear derailleur and then re-lubing/greasing everything that was cleaned EVERY end of the day that I had ridden over road salt. Things begin to rust instantly from salt. I've been having to replace shift cable housing every late winter/early spring. Even pre-lubing the housings still can't keep water out of them, as I do a lot of riding in the rain, also not good for component longevity. At sometime during late winter/early spring, it generally gets so cold that everything freezes. When that happens, usually the cable is rusty, and so is the housing, even after cleaning.

I should probably replace the RD and grip shifter soon, but they still work fine on my KMX. They're old and worn, but functional, and the rear derailleur is not yet stretching chains prematurely(jockey wheels from another broken derailleur of the same make/model on an earlier trike replaced the original as needed). Current chain is ready for replacement though. but it's lasted as long as most of the others, is between 0.5-0.75% stretch, and this chain was lubed with Boeshield. I can probably get another month out of it before it crosses that 0.75% mark on the wear indicator. The shifter long ago stopped indicating what gear it is in due to broken plastic, but it has remained otherwise functional for the purpose of shifting gears, and has been disassembled and regreased once. I usually get a cable to last in the warmer months between winters, and then go through 2-3 cables per shifter during the winter, most commonly due to tearing/fraying that I think is from the constant temperature fluctuations the components are subject to with the weather in my area combined with any traces of water wanting to solidify when temperature is sufficiently low. Cold weather has always been harsh on my components, more than any other time of year. The tearing/fraying of cables inside the housing also prematurely wears the housing and potentially allows in more unwanted contaminants.

The cable replacements, cleanings, and lubings are a rather annoying maintenance ritual, really. I should develop a completely sealed system. I initially tried with my last body design, but too many issues became apparent because of my low ground clearance and lack of being fully enclosed in the vehicle. I'm also going to need a stout but lightweight skid plate underneath my next build. It doesn't have to be pretty, making it smooth enough to be slippery is relatively easy, and it would be a good carbon fiber or fiberglass project to get used to working with the material. I need to guard the rear derailleur from high-speed impacts, especially since I've gone to a smaller diameter rear wheel along with adding rear suspension that wasn't there before. A previous rear derailleur broke because of a ground clearance issue while at speed(potholes and debris litter these roads), but many of the parts in it were perfectly reusable to keep the non-damaged one operable after its original components were worn.

Make sure everything is in good operating order. You do not want an unanticipated chain-in-the-spokes incident when you're careening down the road at the car-appropriate speeds you want your bike to reach. I've had that happen on a road bike at 15 mph, and it was not fun. I ended up not crashing and my rear-wheel only lost 3 spokes but, imagine you're going 45 mph down the street and you lose the entire rear wheel, to get an idea of what you need to mitigate via correct maintenance.

Bicycle parts have their place on your ebike. But they are bicycle parts, generally made for fair weather and recreational use, with all the limitations entailed in that.

I have a friend who is obsessed with belt drives as a solution to the never-ending chain/transmission maintenance, but when you look at the cost to implement such a thing(and the Leafmotor is not engineered for the Internal Gear Hubs that are necessary for such a system), the derailleur/chain/shifter maintanance doesn't seem like such a chore anymore considering what the alternative can cost. There IS electronic shifting, but I'm not a fan of it because if any of the inexpensive-to-manufacture and expensive-to-buy electronics in it fail, you have no shifting, even if the mechanicals are otherwise perfectly fine; I'm not sure an electronic shifting system for 6 or 7 speed even exists anyhow(electronic shifters tend to be high-end and expensive on systems of at least 11 speeds, when 7-speed parts are generally the lowest cost system, and nothing bigger than 7-speeds seems to fit on a Leafbike in 135mm dropouts anyhow)! There's also something to be said for dumb mechanicals that can be fixed with hand tools and salvaged parts in a parking lot or on a sidewalk within minutes, which is one aspect of cable pull brakes that I'm going to miss when I switch to a hydraulic brake system(for the performance I'm going to have, hydraulic brakes are a necessity, but bicycle parts are not up to the task for this, so motorcycle parts and ATV parts are going to be used for braking, and I recommend you do the same).

Just make sure everything's in working order to further reduce the probability of unwanted surprises when riding. I have many instances of such surprises I could recount, but fortunately, they weren't of the most unpleasant varieties and I've been neither injured nor killed by any bike or trike I've used due to malfunctioning.

Chalo said:

Rix said:

Do you have a supplier for a deraileaur and shifter that is compatible with the EPOCH 11-32T?

Click to expand...

Shimano Acera, Altus, or Alivio derailleur with any Shimano 7 speed shifter. SunRace, Microshift, and S-Ride all offer equally functional versions that are compatible with each other. Ask at your local bike shop or consult online vendors.

Click to expand...

Thank you Chalo for chiming in. Unfortunately I don't have an LBS and always have to order. Are you still working for that shop in Austin? If am going to spend money and order from somewhere and need it shipped, might as well do business with fellow enthusiasts on ES.

The Toecutter said:

Rix said:

Do you have a supplier for a deraileaur and shifter that is compatible with the EPOCH 11-32T?

Click to expand...

Chalo beat me to it and offered a better answer than I'd have been able to provide. But I'll describe my experience with the setup I used and offer some things to consider.

I use a Shimano Tourney RD-TX35 with a Shimano Revoshift 7-speed for my rear transmission. I've gotten over 40,000 miles on that part, it was installed more than 3 years before converting to electric, and it has been through 6 sets of 3 of the inexpensive KMC 7-speed chains, 16 shift cables, and 4 cable housings. This combination is a budget option and far from high-end. The derailleur and shifter I both highly recommend. Maintain the parts with oil and grease in the proper places and they last. They hold up fairly well, even when going fast.

I have a friend who is obsessed with belt drives as a solution to the never-ending chain/transmission maintenance, but when you look at the cost to implement such a thing(and the Leafmotor is not engineered for the Internal Gear Hubs that are necessary for such a system), the derailleur/chain/shifter maintanance doesn't seem like such a chore anymore considering what the alternative can cost. There IS electronic shifting, but I'm not a fan of it because if any of the inexpensive-to-manufacture and expensive-to-buy electronics in it fail, you have no shifting, even if the mechanicals are otherwise perfectly fine; I'm not sure an electronic shifting system for 6 or 7 speed even exists anyhow(electronic shifters tend to be high-end and expensive on systems of at least 11 speeds, when 7-speed parts are generally the lowest cost system, and nothing bigger than 7-speeds seems to fit on a Leafbike in 135mm dropouts anyhow)! There's also something to be said for dumb mechanicals that can be fixed with hand tools and salvaged parts in a parking lot or on a sidewalk within minutes, which is one aspect of cable pull brakes that I'm going to miss when I switch to a hydraulic brake system(for the performance I'm going to have, hydraulic brakes are a necessity, but bicycle parts are not up to the task for this, so motorcycle parts and ATV parts are going to be used for braking, and I recommend you do the same).

Just make sure everything's in working order to further reduce the probability of unwanted surprises when riding. I have many instances of such surprises I could recount, but fortunately, they weren't of the most unpleasant varieties and I've been neither injured nor killed by any bike or trike I've used due to malfunctioning.

Click to expand...

Thankyou for expanding on Chalo's answer, and the excellent maintenance advice. I will take a look at the Shimano Tourney RD-TX35 with a Shimano Revoshift 7-speed. I have been running the SRAM EX1 8speed 11-48t group set on one of my ebikes with great results. Of course its set up for the extra torque of a mid drive so using it as a pedal only on a hub motor is way overkill. As far as your friend's desire for a belt drive internally geared tranny, I recently purchased a Carver Ti Allroad (not electric) with the Pinion 9Spd C gearbox. Wow!! It is so impressive. I wish I could get a FUTR Beta swingarm set up for the Pinion gearbox. Sorry to the subject change, thank you again for the response.

Do any of you lads trust Leafbike's wheel building skills? I'm thinking of just ordering one already wound into a 29" wheel but I don't know if they can be trusted.

Hi All,
So I have been reading, and re-reading, and playing with the motor simulator.... Trying to learn some of this stuff myself, rather than just posting the first question that comes to mind after reading a response..

So here is some changes or decisions made regarding my build direction:
1. 6-Speed F/W - Seems like the most likely plug and play fit in my 135mm swingarm. I have found Tourney shifter and derailleur, and most of the freewheels are 14-28. This gives me all the needed numbers to configure the front sproket, and speed drive, once I choose a motor configuration, and know the top speed.

2. PAS - I am very familiar with the standard cadence sensor bikes, and yes when cruising and pedaling, this will be a better way than trying to match the throttle to my cadence.... YES, adding this into the mix!!

3. Brakes - Even though Re-Gen works great, you still need a GREAT-working mechanical back-up here!!! So I read somewhere (I think Chalo) recommended Tektro AURiGA, for a DUAL Disk front brake... Looks like they have the HD-E525 series for the older 1.8mm thick rotors, and now the HD-E745 which hand up to a 2.3mm thick rotor, and also have a more cumbersome parking brake lever (that really won't help me much)... Kind of leaning toward the older 1.8mm stuff??

4. 3T LEAFMOTOR - I would really like someone familiar with the motor simulator to check my settings!!??? Here's what I have:
https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h...ph&blue=Lbs&cont=cust_150_250_0.01_V&kv=17.49
I used the Dewalt choice that was available because I am thinking about a 60V battery (67.2V HOC).... Now, I am not sure if the settings are right for the controller, as I am leaning toward the Kelly KLS-S 6018... (Page 5 chart is all I find for specs)
https://kellycontroller.com/wp-content/uploads/kls-s/KellyKLS-SUserManualV1.10.pdf

The above simulation looks pretty good to me... If I don't have any glaring errors in the inputs!!

The Toecutter supplied so much info in his response to my 3T, 4T, 5T question... I have read and re-read that, to finally realize what info was supplied there.... Anyhow, I think the simulation meets all of my requirements... IF leaving The Toecutter's "Custom Controller" settings alone, was the right move, given the small amount of info available for the Kelly KLS-6018S.??

5. Molicel P45B - Thanks for putting that link in... This is right along the lines I was thinking... I have been reading 7 year old threads on the Stealth Beta builds, I knew there had to be some better cell technology out there somewhere... I have read that post a couple of times, and am not sure if this cell is really for E-bikes?? It says it is designed for "Hard use for short periods"???
If you used this cell, what numbers would you enter for a "Custom Battery" into the Motor Simulator??

Thank you everyone for reading and contributing!!! I appreciate the help!!
Keith

P.s ONE LAST QUESTION: People using hubsinks on the Leafmotor - Will 2 sets of Hubsinks fit side-by-side?? Or did I read that comment on some other motor??